Should sprint be a part Halo

For me H5 made it feel like the armor is what made you special. More like Iron Man. But in previous Halos the armor just protected you and any physical abilities came from your spartan.

IMO Halo 5 should not have been a Halo game. It should have been a new IP because that movement can not exist with classic Halo gameplay and vice versa. Similar to how COD added advanced movement then returned to boots on the ground combat because advanced movement isn’t classic COD. Titanfall was made by the lead COD devs up to MW2 before they split to go start Respawn Entertainment. Titanfalls movement worked (and was just better than COD advanced movement) due to it being integral to Titanfall but not so for COD. Same thing applies to H5 gameplay, not only that but the art style just didn’t match classic Halo.

I think had H5 not been a Halo game but rather a new IP you would still have a game to play with those movement mechanics.

Utter nonsense. Imo.

1 Like

How, if A=/C is true then A=C can not be.

I get nowadays people want to blur definitions but things have meaning. Adding thrusters completely changes the game. You could hover, dash, ground pound, and shoulder charge. That changes so much about the game and definitely kept the trend of non classic Halo gameplay that started in Reach with psuedo loadouts then in H4 with full loadouts and H5 with advanced movement.

Halo was and now is again an Arena Shooter with a grounded base movement system. Reach, 4, and 5 are not that plain and simple. You can argue that you enjoyed the gameplay more in these games but it is illogical to say they had classic Halo gameplay.

Halo 5’s “advanced movement” is pretty bog-standard when you compare it to any other shooter that adopts their own idea of it.

At best, Halo 5’s idea of “advanced movement” is propped by the Thruster mechanic since it’s the only thing differentiating it.

In a word, it’s “basic”.

Sprint is such a standard of games these days, despite having played the games a thousand times, i find the lack of sprint weird in them.

I feel like Sprint is the least of infinite’s issues, and infinite’s handling is a decent enough implementation.

1 Like

Compared to other advanced movement systems sure, its more basic, but still a drastic change for Halo and thus not compatible with classic Halo gameplay. I found it fun for a bit but it didn’t satisfy that Halo itch. Still feel it would have been better suited as a new IP as if it wasn’t burdened by needing to fit into the Halo shoes it would have been more fun.

It really isn’t so drastic, there are more “advanced mobility” options in Halo Reach and Halo 4.

If anything, Halo 5 walked it back.

If you mean the jet packs, those were slow, and yes loadouts moved Halo far from classic and away from arena shooters. The thrusters were very fast and it enabled insta kills with ground pounds and shoulder chargers where that never would have happened otherwise. Im not saying Reach and 4 are classic either. All 3 are very far from classic gameplay 4 being the furthest then 5 then Reach. But loadouts weren’t unique to Halo by any means and thus don’t warrant a new IP. H5 movement is very unique and thats why i state it would have been good as a new IP. I would also say gameplay wise Infinite is the game i have been waiting for since Halo 3 and from my own anecdotal evidence everyone i know feels the same.

Instant? Spartan Charges have never done enough damage to kill in one hit, and Ground Pounds had long, noisy wind-ups!

I don’t understand how you could even slightly imply that loadouts are less significant to Halo’s formula than standardized movement options. One’s customized beforehand, and one coincides with equal-starts! Halo 5 defines the new movement options by designing them to be as intrinsic as being able to jump or crouch; being able to select what you spawn with, in addition to modifying perks is by-and-large more of an antitheses to Halo’s core. The fact that you’re even calling the movement “unique” undermines the vocally ubiquitous rhetoric that Halo 5 “chases trends”. You’d seriously rather have loadouts over “advanced mobility” to which, you even agreed with, is “more basic” yet also “unique”. i can’t even…

The most poignant discussion in this community is this weird, arbitrary line-in-the-sand over what constitutes “classic Halo gameplay” and “classic Halo” in general. Is dual-wielding classic? Is the removal of health packs classic? is equipment classic? Are Armor Abilities classic?

For some reason, a lot of people draw the line from Halo 3 onward, a lot of people draw the line from Halo Reach onward, and there are even people who draw the line from Halo 2 onward and especially Halo CE onward. There exists a margin where even you’d disagree with another “classic gameplay” advocate despite claiming to be the same. If any Halo is to be considered “classic” it ought to be the first one, CE itself changed nothing and everything else has altered it’s original formula in different ways. With such a mindset, everything listed above could be considered “not classic Halo” simply because the first Halo didn’t have them.

Halo Reach from Halo 3 should intensively be called the greatest departure from “classic Halo” given that it had the greatest number of changes: the introduction of armor abilities, curated loadouts, the reprisal of health packs, bloom, etc. Halo 5 is considerably tame in comparison. This is especially compounded by the fact that it aimed to homogenize the gimmicks introduced in Halo Reach and exacerbated in Halo 4, and restore the “classic Halo gameplay” loop but with the notion to retain the coolness-factor introduced by its older siblings, as well as appeal to modern demand. Personally, I think such a mindset of “classic Halo” is pointless and unproductive because I feel no two Halo games play the exact same. When I play the MCC instead of Halo 5, I have a different itch for a different Halo game each time, none of them will give you the exact same experience.

The concept of “classic” is moot.

The worst part of all of this you need to realize is that Halo 5’s gameplay loop is the most similar to Halo Infinite’s gameplay loop; the only apparent difference is the lack of intrinsic Thrusters.
Moreover, your “anecdotal evidence” isn’t helpful when I could also just look for a bunch of talking-heads who agree with me and make the exact same assertion.

I didn’t imply loadouts were less significant, what I did say was they weren’t unique enough (as many other shooters have them) to warrant a new IP. Also ground pound being able to one shot people is still and instakill even if it has a wind up because the actual damage is instant…shoulder charge did more damage than a normal melee and did allow you to get kills where one otherwise wouldn’t have been able to.

H5s movement is unique, i cant think of another FPS game that has very similar mechanics. Thats a good thing. It kind of followed trends with advanced movement systems being popular but it did put a good unique twist on it which in a vacuum is fun but being in a Halo game i (and many others) had certain expectations for how a Halo game should play that H5 did not match up to. Reach and 4 did not as well but that doesn’t take away the fact that 5 didn’t.

Just because H5 is an arena shooter doesn’t mean it has classic Halo gameplay. H5 plays very different and I’ll never understand the argument that it “has classic Halo gameplay and saying it doesn’t is just arbitrary” because its not. Everyone who played it feels the difference. This difference fun as it was again isn’t what a bunch of us (i would say most of us because Halo Infinite definitely went back to classic Halo gameplay) wanted. All this is why i think H5 would have been better off as a new IP so that the fun and unique movement of H5 could have lived on.

Classic Halo gameplay is what people where begging for after H5. COD had the same thing and it was a big deal when they went back to “boots on the ground”. If you’re premise is that H5 is classic gameplay then we just don’t agree. I said why i think its not and I’m not forcing anyone to agree but all this stems from should Halo have sprint. I would say yes because its enjable and i said i didn’t think the very slow movement of especially H2 and 3 would work in a modern game. It makes aiming too easy and i just don’t think its fun to play that slow anymore. I loved H3 at the time and while its still fun if a modern game played like that I wouldn’t enjoy it.

Except that’s exactly what it implies when you competitively compare it to advanced mobility.

Regardless if it kills instantly upon (ACCURATE) impact, what is this supposed to mean? Insta-kills don’t belong in Halo? Then you ought to rid the game of snipers, shotguns, rocket launchers - anything that kills in a single tick. This just seems like a total non-sequitur to the notion that Ground Pound doesn’t belong in Halo, evident by the fact that it’s capable of doing something with a considerable amount of setup.

The Ground Pound is especially difficult to use accurately given how mobile everyone is. You have to account for adequate height because lower altitudes will yield less damage and have smaller radius, and you have to account for travel-time since the action is on very restrictive rails forcing you to only go where you aim which, to most players, is rather easy to avoid and punish. There’s a real, significant skill-gap in using it effectively.

Likewise, Spartan Charge is not as much of a silver bullet as you think it is. It requires a player to reach maximum sprint speed, which actually takes the longest to do in Halo 5 than in any other Halo, it demands a considerable amount of accuracy (especially in contrast to something like the Shoulder Charge in Destiny 2), and it has an incredibly long end-lag that many seasoned Halo 5 players have no trouble punishing. I support this with my own experience both as the attacker and the one retaliating.

Watch any game of high-level competitive Halo 5 and count how often you’ll see players use either, I watched a couple before writing this and I counted fewer than ten times.

It’s exhausting to see how it never dawns on the Halo community that certain things can be nerfed if they happen to be too oppressive. So many people are so quick to jump on the ‘Get Rid’ button without evaluating every aspect of something and giving it an honest shot. All for the sake of purity, I suppose.

What’s unique about it? There’s walking, jumping, crouching, sprinting, sliding, clambering - these are all ubiquitous features that you could find in just about any other FPS. Anything else can be construed as unique by being a definitive feature of Halo, and even then, they aren’t. The most significant mechanic that Halo 5 has that’s somewhat unique is the intrinsic Thrusters. Thrusting has been in Advanced Warfare, yet Halo’s been using it since Halo 4 and technically Halo Reach with the Evade armor ability, Ground Pound was also in Advanced Warfare and it was in Destiny.

Being that these are observable examples to refute the idea, don’t suddenly shift your stance to the notion that Halo 5 isn’t “unique”, which coincides with your next point which can only be read as contradictory to the preceding point:

So, was it “unique”? Or did it “follow trends”? Those are ideas that can be considered opposite to each other. And despite that, shouldn’t you be more appreciative of Halo 5 because it was “unique”, when in contrast to the point I made last night about the “vocally ubiquitous rhetoric that Halo 5 “chases trends””? It’s like you’re trying to raise the bar by making contradictory arguments.

“Halo 5 chased trends. But no! It’s also unique!” Like what?
Also:

This is what’s known as the “ad populum” fallacy - you’re appealing to a group of people that cannot be quantified nor verified to indirectly support your argument.

It would be like me making an argument and then saying “Everyone agrees!”.
Like, can I prove that? Does that comment inherently support the arguments on the topic presented?

The short answer is ‘no’.

This is the crux of the point I was trying to make. Whatever you define as “classic Halo gameplay” is only at best your own approximation because there exists groups of people with their own definition of “classic Halo gameplay” One may define Halo CE as “classic” and decry the addition of dual-wielding or the removal of health packs or the Assault Rifle. Another may define Halo CE and Halo 2 as “classic” and decry the addition of equipment. Another with Halo 3 and decry the addition of armor abilities and the reprisal of health packs.
Despite claiming to be of the same ideology, they’re not as communal as they’re once led to believe.

The awful thing that I’ve observed in this community is this pungent correlation of Halo players defining anything before Halo 4 as “classic”, and anything after Halo Reach as “not classic”, and the developer in question. Despite Halo Reach and Halo 4 playing very similarly with markedly the fewest changes in gameplay, there’s an inherent bias towards Halo Reach. It seems to further correlate to an obvious-by-now bias towards Bungie’s Halos and 343i’s Halos.

You’ve even demonstrated this phenomenon yourself by stating that Halo Infinite’s gameplay is “what you’ve(sic) been waiting for since Halo 3”. This is because Halo 5’s gameplay is actually the most like Halo Infinite’s gameplay than any other Halo: sprint, sliding, clambering, Smart-Link - amusingly, NONE of these mechanics are featured in Halo 3, but ARE featured in Halo 5. You are faulting Halo 5 for the SAME reasons you are overlooking Halo Infinite because 343i has you convinced that it’s the return of your whimsical, arbitrary definition of “classic”.

You can’t fault Halo 5 while equivocally praising Halo Infintie for the reasons that exist in both.

To that point, I NEVER insinuated, nor proclaimed that Halo 5 has “classic Halo gameplay”. I felt that in my previous comment, I very clearly expressed my disapproval for the discussion of “classic Halo gameplay” because I deem it whimsical, arbitrary, and unproductive. It’s a strawman at this point; appealing to one’s nostalgia with the word “classic”.

And:

Two more instances of the ad populum fallacy.

One more.

Are you suggesting Halo should “chase trends” because CoD walked back to “boots-on-the-ground” (I hate this phrase, MW2019 is far more hectic than AW, BOIII, and IW.)?

And what of those who found the movement mechanics of Halo 5 “enjoyable”? Don’t they also deserve a plate? Heck, until recently, many people were so vehemently against the idea of sprint being in Halo whatsoever. They started to warm-up to it when they nerfed it into what it is in Halo Infintie. Why not have the same approach to Spartan Charge, or Ground Pound?

The main thing i am arguing is that lots of people enjoyed H5 gameplay but not enough to keep it as the main style for future games as it is just not compatible with what I define as classic and thing many others due as well.

Loadouts didn’t make Reach or 4 special. Many other shooters did it and so a new IP for a mechanic that is not unique isn’t worth it. I feel sad when i see people saying they wished Infinite had kept H5 gameplay because they loved H5’s and no other game or series comes close.

That said I had been disappointed in Halo installments since Reach because I wanted something that played similar to H3 but with updated movement mechanics which Infinite finally gave us and am happy for Halos sake that the H5 movement didn’t stay.

Both those points mean i want people to be able to enjoy H5 style gameplay and what i know as classic Halo gameplay and both of those can’t coexist in the same game. So to remedy this I suggested that H5 should have been its own new IP, that way you would have a series with classic Halo gameplay and one with H5s and they wouldn’t have to clash in the same game over playlists but could co exist in the gaming market as 2 separate IPs.

The only way something new and similar to H5 gameplay that will one day exist (when we finally get forge) will be a custom game with everyone’s equipment permanently set to thrusters with Infinite uses on a recharge. That means people who loved H5 gameplay are basically forced to just enjoy custom games and get no real rewards/no ranked playlists/and have no official playlists. That sucks and i do feel sorry for them but not sorry enough to sacrifice the gameplay i think most Halo fans wanted in Infinite nor split the player base by making H5 style playlists in Infinite (Infinite has its problems but gameplay is certainly not one of those).

That, that is why i say H5 should have been a new IP.

More ad populum. What aren’t you understanding about what a fallacy entails?
You cannot verify whether enough people enjoyed Halo 5. You cannot verify that the majority of players believe that Halo 5’s gameplay is incompatible to what you or many others (ad populum right here) define as classic Halo. The most pragmatic mindset would be to assume that most people don’t even partake in the discussion. Please, stop referring to disembodied opinions.

And Halo Infinite DID keep a lot of Halo 5’s gameplay quirks. I listed them out for you in the previous comment, here they are again: sprint, slide, clamber, Smart-Link. These are featured in Halo 5 and not Halo 3. Therefore, Halo 5 is closer to Halo Infinite’s gameplay loop than Halo 3. Please, help me help you understand.

Which I just explained is false. You need to address my points and take them into consideration of your own arguments.

Except, again. You are, to say again, PRAISING Halo Infinite as a “classic Halo experience” despite it sharing the reasons you believe Halo 5 is “not a classic Halo experience”. There’s a pronounced hypocrisy exacerbated by you being oblivious to that fact, or you’re being wilfully ignorant to that fact.

So you are ADMITTING that Halo Infinite is but a few differences away from how Halo 5 plays. The simple addition of intrinsic Thrusters and suddenly it’s adequate enough to satisfy fans of Halo 5 in your opinion. So you are, again, contradicting yourself by calling Halo Infinite a “classic experience” despite it, again, despite it sharing the reasons you believe Halo 5 is “not a classic Halo experience”.

And AGAIN, you’ve employed the ad populum fallacy!

Are you reading what you are writing?

Had Halo 5s gameplay been near as popular as people think it would have been in Infinite. The whole marketing campaign was basically a reuturn to form. I would say 343 and Microsoft know the market and thus understood H5s gameplay doesn’t fit Halo so they didn’t keep it (if it was why get rid of it, are you saying you know better than them🤔?) And yes ONE SINGLE feature can drastically change how a series plays. Jetpacks in COD for example make the game way different. Same with thrusters in H5. Clamber isn’t part of this discussion because it basically replaced the super high jump heights we had in older Halos. Not too much of a difference there.

In short i would say, ADS, sprint, clamber, and slide are not make H5 not classic it is solely the thrusters that make it not classic and deserving of an IP all its own.

Ans just because you can make something in a custom game doesn’t mean that that game is closer to one on terms of gameplay than another.
Infinite is closer to older Halos than H5 in terms of core gameplay plain and simple, especially closer to H3 than any other Halo.

It blows my mind people will argue that H5 is classic. It just isnt and trying to argue that is just illogical. I already made my arguments and you just don’t agree and thats that i guess.

This is another logical fallacy, what’s known as “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” which is best explained with the example: “Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X”. You shouldn’t infer that Infinite was “walked back” because you feel Halo 5 was not contingent with Halo’s core gameplay loop. As evident in this conversation, I believe I thoroughly explained that Halo 5 is closer to Halo Infinite’s gameplay loop than any other Halo because there are a number of significant features that only those two share. Here they are again: Slide, Clamber, Smart-Link. I will say, again, these are integral features not found in any other Halo. Therefore, you can deduce that Halo 5, in addition to being the immediate predecessor, plays more closely to Halo Infinite than any other Halo. This refutes your next point.

Based on what I said prior, they did keep it, mostly. If you still can’t see this, then it begs the question if you’ve properly consumed one or both the games as wholly as you should. Try an experiment, boot up both games and try to account for every similarity you can, I posit you’ll find a lot more than you originally believed.

Can you extrapolate on your example? Because it wasn’t just jet packs that turned CoD on its head. AW had thrusting, ground pounds, Exo Abilities, etc., BOIII introduced wall-running, weakened the jet pack, and introduced new specialist abilities. IW had the least intensive advanced mobility because it introduced nothing especially different from BOIII’s system, and weakened them instead.

The fact that you equate those to one singular feature in Halo 5 as “drastically changing how a series plays” is ridiculous. Why not cry foul when health packs were removed, or when dual-wielding was introduced, or when equipment was introduced, or when armor abilities were introduced, ad infinitum ad nauseum? Even those changes have greater impact on the gameplay loop than being able to thrust a few feet in one direction every few seconds at least.

Is Halo Infinite suddenly Halo 5 when you pick up a Thruster Pack? What about Grappling Hooks? Or Repulsors? Why would they be less indicative of “drastically changing how a series plays” when they were literally JUST introduced into the franchise and Thrusters have been around since Halo 4 and Halo Reach with Evade?

I can’t believe I need to iterate this again. I NEVER insinuated, nor proclaimed that Halo 5 is “classic”. I don’t believe in “classic” because it’s an arbitrary strawman in which the definition shifts dramatically depending on who you ask.

What’s illogical is that you’re imposing a stance upon me that I never took, and perpetuating it when I’ve already refuted it.

Help me help you understand.

1 Like

Maybe if i define my words you can understand me because i feel like we are talking past each other. I think we are operating on 2 different premises, you don’t believe in a classic Halo feel and I do so let me be specific about it. I would say classic is CE-3. I’m not as absolute about every single feature never changing to stay classic as i know some are. Sprint, the weird but kind of cool way ADS has been done recently, clamber, slide, dual wielding, hijacking, no more health packs, and equipment don’t bother me too much. Halo still has a certain feel even with those changes. Each game, CE-3, felt like an iteration on the Halo formula. Reach felt like the first game to change more than iterate on that formula.

Reach and 4 are in their own category. The pseudo loadouts in Reach and then full custom loadouts in 4 make them not play like my definition of classic Halo above. They are actually in a whole other subclass of shooter and no longer an arena shooter so here there is a clear definitional was to explain that they are not classic Halo. While i enjoyed both (strickly talking about multiplayer here) they satisfy me in wanting something more akin to H3.

5 is in a new category on its own (in terms of Halo games). If it didn’t have built in thrusters but had kept all the other movement options i would say it would play like classic Halo. The thrusters are just a huge change of pace, more so than sprint or clamber which i said is really just replacing the crazy high jumps spartans used to have. Now they have shorter jumps but can just grab ledges so its a near equivalent. Sprint (at least at the speeds 5 and Infinite have, too much faster would be a different story) doesn’t seem to change the flow enough to count as not classic nor does slide.

The thrusters just add such a new dynamic to gameplay that i qualify it as non classic. If i took the Halo skin off of it and reskinned everything and said it was a new IP people would not say, “wait is this a spiritual successor to Halo?” (And yes same thing applies to Reach and 4). They might see that some systems are similar but that thruster is a selling point i.e. the whole Locke trailer basically just had him showing off the thrusters. A good example of something having a similar treatment would be Split Gate. You can tell it pays tribute to Halo and use some of its systems but clearly isn’t a sequel or spiritual successor to it. But if i did that to Infinite people would recognize the pacing and say “wait is this game a spiritual successor to Halo?”. That sentiment is basically what defines classic gameplay for me.

This is how i define things and why i feel how i feel.
I think you are trying to just count the number of systems which, yes, in that case Infinite is closer to H5 but not each system, in my eyes, is weighted the same. Thrust has a much bigger impact on gameplay than just sprint. This is why i say Infinite is closer to what i defined as classic gameplay than it is to H5s. Its not a straight numbers issue because unless its a straight up remake each game in a series is going to have a certain number of new mechanics but if the impact those mechanics make are significant, as i would argue thrust is, it is either loved and will stay forever in a series, ex: kill/score streaks in COD, or they were just tried and don’t stay for many if more than one entry as people want a series to feel somewhat familiar and thus if those changes are really fun a new IP should be made to keep it going ex: Titans and jetpacks in Titanfall as the devs were originally COD devs and adding those would have been too much and not fit in COD but made a great new IP.

Lastly back on topic, sprint for me is welcome in Infinite but feel free to argue why it shouldn’t if that is your stance. Also @Revaci good discussion, don’t think im getting mad or anything as i love talking Halo and thanks for responding to my posts. You also got me curious so i started a poll in another post to see what games people consider classic; of course its not final but i am interested to see what people think now. Love the discussion and good day to you my fellow spartan (or elite, or ODST).

Sorry to the OP we got a bit off topic.

I think sprint was a good addition to Halo. In my opinion, it makes the movement generally feel better and the addition of sliding makes the movement more fun. I think in Halo Infinite, the speed increase with sprint is marginal at best and I think they should have just kept it like Halo 4 and 5 or no sprint at all, though I’d prefer it like 4 and 5

Nah, sprint is bad outright and 343’s continued attempts to force it in and make it work only show how incompatible is it with Halo.

1 Like

Halo is the only game I know of where the “community” essentially wants the same game regurgitated back to them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and goes apoplectic if anything changes.

Call of Duty has changed in many ways over the years.
Battlefield has changed in many ways over the years.
Rainbow Six has changed in many ways over the years.
Ghost Recon has changed in many ways over the years.
Doom has changed in many ways over the years.
Even “Hunt:Showdown” has changed over the years.
You see where I’m going with this?

I do not understand this mental inability to accept change in any form. There are so many QoL changes that could be made to make Halo better (starting with the removal of bloom), but half the community just wants to keep playing CE over and over again. They should just go play that.

Yet the core game is the same

Yet the core game is the same

Yet the core game is the same

for some reason users like you think that Halo needs to change itself to be bland and generic, it NEEDS to change? but why? why does Halo need to change? why should Halo reinvent itself for zoomer smoothbrain players who will leave anyway?

2 Likes