Should everything made and thought of...

Be put by the competitive community before released or even after the game is released so they get their way and there is no fighting that the casual community is getting cater to and the competitive community is handed the golden hammer to squash out any rebellions?

Ex: Custom games,playlist,weapons, new game type ideas, ect.

Discuss.

I’m just gonna say no, as much as I would like to say yes.

Having a few competitive players on their development team determining “this is relatively balanced” or “this is so overpowered it can’t feasibly work in any form” is enough. Which 343I has already done.

Nope. There’s more to Halo than simply competitive gameplay, and the views of competitive players don’t represent the views of the Halo population as a whole. I wouldn’t want competitive players impacting casual fun gametypes any more than I’d want casual players deciding competitive settings.

So long as the gameplay is balanced and fun, custom games diverse (with the ability to tweak just about anything) and competitive playlists are supported from the get-go, I see no reason for anyone to complain.

> Nope. There’s more to Halo than simply competitive gameplay, and the views of competitive players don’t represent the views of the Halo population as a whole. I wouldn’t want competitive players impacting casual fun gametypes any more than I’d want casual players deciding competitive settings.
>
> So long as the gameplay is balanced and fun, custom games diverse (with the ability to tweak just about anything) and competitive playlists are supported from the get-go, I see no reason for anyone to complain.

Is there any reason you can’t just design the game to be competitive then throw in fiesta, rockets, etc as an after-thought?

It’s not like a competitive player is going to say “Race can’t exist because reasons”.

Like the others said, NOPE :slight_smile:

> to be competitive then throw in fiesta, rockets, etc as an after-thought?
>
> It’s not like a competitive player is going to say “Race can’t exist because reasons”.

No but in order to maintain the pretense of a competitive format that competitive player is going to make quite a deal about “consistency” and “staying true to the core ideals of Halo” even when said consistency and ideology is preserving dangerously archaic gameplay standards that are increasingly only of relevance to those with nostalgia for the glory days of the franchise. The overdominance of long-range semi-automatics for example or the stupid, static, simplicity of our maps (even compared to Unreal Tournament 2004.)

So while the competitive player is not going to say “Race cannot exist”, he is going to make a stink if you enabled free-running, more elaborate weapons systems, a shift of focus to the campaign, stat-based customization, variable map setups, or simply useful automatic weapons because such would conflict with their conception of Halo. You can relegate some things, but others are going to wreck notions.

The competitive community will some how some way find a way to complain like they always do when they don’t get their way with everything. I say no as well but because the casual community is considered minority and not allowed to really speak their minds without being called out the comp side might take this as a huge step since they have comp players on the dev team… and they all know each other…

> No but in order to maintain the pretense of a competitive format that competitive player is going to make quite a deal about “consistency” and “staying true to the core ideals of Halo” even when said consistency and ideology is preserving dangerously archaic gameplay standards that are increasingly only of relevance to those with nostalgia for the glory days of the franchise.

Skill and balance are considered archaic? That’s really all the slang competitive means.

Anything beyond that is simply promoting that “us versus them” mentality, only in reverse.

Tell me. What do you want from Halo’s multiplayer? Give me some perspective to go on here. Don’t even answer that, just describe to me a game that you enjoy. Just give me something.

And obviously some people are going to be irate if you shift the focus to campaign. Not everyone plays for the campaign.

> The competitive community will some how some way find a way to complain like they always do when they don’t get their way with everything. I say no as well but because the casual community is considered minority and not allowed to really speak their minds without being called out the comp side might take this as a huge step since they have comp players on the dev team… and they all know each other…

The only time the competitive community complains is when -Yoink- mechanics affect their playlist and can’t be removed without extensive modding.

For example, there was absolutely no way to remove spread from the BR in Halo 3. The best they could do is lower the bullets to kill to somewhat make up for it.

The only time casuals get “called out” is when they spout a bunch of nonsense regarding competitive play like…nope, can’t single out members. Statements like “The Suppressor is the best utility weapon and should be used in MLG” will get you -Yoink- from everyone, and justifiably so.

> > Nope. There’s more to Halo than simply competitive gameplay, and the views of competitive players don’t represent the views of the Halo population as a whole. I wouldn’t want competitive players impacting casual fun gametypes any more than I’d want casual players deciding competitive settings.
> >
> > So long as the gameplay is balanced and fun, custom games diverse (with the ability to tweak just about anything) and competitive playlists are supported from the get-go, I see no reason for anyone to complain.
>
> Is there any reason you can’t just design the game to be competitive then throw in fiesta, rockets, etc as an after-thought?

Eh, if we’re talking throwdown level competitive (which is generally what I think when it comes to competitive) then the reason would be lack of global appeal. If we’re talking balanced gameplay that can be played fairly competitively (Halo 1-2-3) then sure, there’s no reason.

> It’s not like a competitive player is going to say “Race can’t exist because reasons”.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that to be honest.

> I wouldn’t be so sure about that to be honest.

Why? I know you’re a smart person, why make this statement?

Having Race in the game doesn’t affect them (us? I don’t know, I don’t tend to self identify) at all. Nor does having fiesta, and we all like to just screw around every once in awhile.

Not everyone feels like jumping into lvl 50 Throwdown after a long day.

> then the reason would be lack of global appeal.

Eh, debatable. The settings themselves are basically Halo 3 without radar and with sprint.

> > I wouldn’t be so sure about that to be honest.
>
> Why? I know you’re a smart person, why make this statement?
>
> Having Race in the game doesn’t affect them (us? I don’t know, I don’t tend to self identify) at all. Nor does having fiesta, and we all like to just screw around every once in awhile.
>
> Not everyone feels like jumping into lvl 50 Throwdown after a long day.

Huh? I meant there may be players who would say that, not that I myself thought that way.

I suppose it was a little bit vague. Sorry about that, it’s a bit late where I am.

> Eh, debatable. The settings themselves are basically Halo 3 without radar and with sprint.

I suppose we’d have to actually see how popular the settings would be nowadays to really gauge it. Maybe they’d be popular to a large group of people, maybe they wouldn’t be. Hard to say at this point.

> The competitive community will some how some way find a way to complain like they always do when they don’t get their way with everything. I say no as well but because the casual community is considered minority and not allowed to really speak their minds without being called out the comp side might take this as a huge step since they have c<mark>omp players on the dev team… and they all know each other…</mark>

This means absolute -Yoink- though. They may know each other, but I’m SURE there are disagreements.

It would probably be a stupid move on their part. Competitive players are just people with their own opinions. Sending it through to a “committee” of competitive players is just a layer of bureaucracy that would probably damage parts of the game and over complicate others.

> It would probably be a stupid move on their part. Competitive players are just people with their own opinions. Sending it through to a “committee” of competitive players is just a layer of bureaucracy that would probably damage parts of the game and over complicate others.

As I originally said, having one or two professional players on the team is enough.

Developers are taught game design.
I doubt competitive gameplay is a foreign concept to any of them.
They willingly choose to make the game less competitive.

I mean, everyone is human and makes mistakes. I can see why the DMR might have initially had a faster killtime. An oversight.

But doing things like switching from the CE Mag to the Halo 3 BR or throwing in overpowered perks isn’t a mistake, it’s an intentional design choice that harms the competitive merit of the game.

Spamming professional gamers on the team isn’t going to make the game more competitive, what will make the game more competitive is a massive demand for competitive play and a fitting response from the designers of the game.

> Be put by the competitive community before released or even after the game is released so they get their way and there is no fighting that the casual community is getting cater to and the competitive community is handed the golden hammer to squash out any rebellions?

Neither yes nor no. Halo needs both competitive and noncompetitive gametypes, not just one or the other. No shooter can succeed by being too far on one “side” or the other.

If the default gametype settings are fairly competitive by default, then you can tweak them to make an ultra-competitive gametype for the competitive players, tweak them differently to make a fun, casual gametype for the casual players, and the majority of the players who are in-between can play the default settings.

You know, there IS a reason why MLG playlists have never been popular…

> You know, there IS a reason why MLG playlists have never been popular…

Well this is a gray area

If it is for competetive purposes, it wouldn’t hurt. However, you will have the problem of them sticking to old habits, even if the habits aren’t actually fun to begin with.

What 343 needs is to stop and think what they are adding, and what effect will the new idea bring, before moving on to the next idea. To me, it’s not that the new ideas were introduced in the first place that caused the problem. Instead, I feel it was that no one stopped to go,

“What would happen if we let everyone spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades everytime they die?” “How is this better than what we had going in previous games?”

“What would happen if we let players pick from a random pot of weapons and power ups every few hundred points or so?” “How would this affect 4v4? Big Team Battle? And why is this a better alternative?”

I feel that those questions were never asked, nor truly tested entirely to prevent the worse case scenario. Or worse, expect the internet community to get along with each other and not have a whole team spawn with a certain weapon(especially when we don’t even get along at times in their own forums). We can have new ideas to freshen up the game(and we should). But if no one stops to go, “Hey, this leads to that. What should we do about it?”, then we’re going to keep having overcooked ideas breaking boundaries in the wrong way and mess up what could potentially be a good game.

> If it is for competetive purposes, it wouldn’t hurt. However, you will have the problem of them sticking to old habits, even if the habits aren’t actually fun to begin with.
>
> W<mark>hat 343 needs is to stop and think what they are adding, and what effect will the new idea bring, before moving on to the next idea.</mark> To me, it’s not that the new ideas were introduced in the first place that caused the problem. Instead, I feel it was that no one stopped to go,
>
> “What would happen if we let everyone spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades everytime they die?” “How is this better than what we had going in previous games?”
>
> “What would happen if we let players pick from a random pot of weapons and power ups every few hundred points or so?” “How would this affect 4v4? Big Team Battle? And why is this a better alternative?”
>
>
> I feel that those questions were never asked, nor truly tested entirely to prevent the worse case scenario. Or worse, expect the internet community to get along with each other and not have a whole team spawn with a certain weapon(especially when we don’t even get along at times in their own forums). We can have new ideas to freshen up the game(and we should). But if no one stops to go, “Hey, this leads to that. What should we do about it?”, then we’re going to keep having overcooked ideas breaking boundaries in the wrong way and mess up what could potentially be a good game.

I’m sure they are by now.

> > Nope. There’s more to Halo than simply competitive gameplay, and the views of competitive players don’t represent the views of the Halo population as a whole. I wouldn’t want competitive players impacting casual fun gametypes any more than I’d want casual players deciding competitive settings.
> >
> > So long as the gameplay is balanced and fun, custom games diverse (with the ability to tweak just about anything) and competitive playlists are supported from the get-go, I see no reason for anyone to complain.
>
> Is there any reason you can’t just design the game to be competitive then throw in fiesta, rockets, etc as an after-thought?
>
> It’s not like a competitive player is going to say <mark>“Race can’t exist because reasons”.</mark>

Wasn’t there a huge argument during Halo 3’s development about a certain group of Competitive people demanding that the game only feature BRs and Frags?