Shallow water on Forge map - like or dislike?

I’d like to preface this with a positive perspective, because the new Forge looks BLINDINGLY good. Seriously. I thought Forge 2.0 made me excited back in Reach. But this is something else, it just looks amazing. When I saw how usable terrain pieces were going to be, I was blown away. Then I saw the prebuilt demo map, and my jaw dropped. I want to send a HUGE thank you to everyone involved in putting this together. I’ve been a part of the Forge community since early Halo 3, and I never imagined we’d come this far. I didn’t think I could get any more excited for MCC, but this reveal did just that.

That said, something small struck me when watching the IGN First video. Just wondering what people think of the change made to water, that it’s no longer a default killzone and instead has pathing just below the surface to simulate shallow water across the whole canvas.

I can see how it’s going to save effort when creating shallow water for, say, rivers, lakes and sloping shores. I can also see how it’s going to make some less conventional map designs much more feasible.

However, imo not having water as a default death barrier is more hassle overall than it saves. Here’s why.

On, say, Forge World, water is a a death barrier by default. In this it isn’t. This means that if you want to actually use it as a death barrier (which is gonna be true of pretty much any map that isn’t built to be totally inescapable within its own geometry) you have to populate with either safe zones or kill zones. If not, any player can just walk out of the map and wander off as far as the canvas is pathed, which is pretty gamebreaking.

It’s not just island maps which use the water as a deathzone either, floating maps which aren’t inherently self contained use it too. Think about something like Lockout. Imaging dropping off the map and landing on a solid surface, just able to wander around outside the map proper. To avoid that you’re gonna have to encase your map in a safe zone, which isn’t the end of the world but takes some configuring.

And it’s a little more awkward if you want to have, say, an Island map with a Banshee. If you create a safe zone at the distance away from the shore that you want players to be able to walk out in to the water (to simulate a sloping shore which drops off to deep water) then the Banshee won’t be able to fly out of that zone either, which may not be what you want and may well be uncessarily restrictive on its flight. So you either have to extend the whole safe zone outwards to allow for proper Banshee flight area, or create multi-tiered safe zones at different heights. But worse than that, if you want to not have shallow water at the shore at all, then you have to path hard kills around the edge of the geometry very tightly. This is gonna be hella fiddly, and also restrict stuff like Banshee flying even more. Oh, you flew out a metre over the shore even though you can’t see that precisely when you’re up in the air? Blow the hell up immediately, basically ruining Banshee play. You’re basically forced in to using soft kills if you also want to use air vehicles, which means you can’t have the water as an absolute containing edge to your map even if you want to, either that or once again deal with the hassle of multi-tiered hard and soft kill/safe zones.

And even if you don’t do hard kill barriers right at the shore, it’s still gonna be fiddly. Unless your map is a very simple shape, you won’t just be able to use one soft safe to encompass it properly with a roughly uniform distance from the shore to the kill barrier. You’re gonna have to patch up the right shape with multiple overlapping ones.
And if you go with kill zones rather than safe zones, god forbid you miss a tiny spot, cause then players can just get out of your map and walk as far away as possible across the water.

All this to save the relatively tiny amount of effort it takes to create shallow water, and only relevant on the occasions I want to actually use shallow water, which isn’t often at all compared to the times this will mandate use of safe zones etc.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think it’s worthwhile overall? Will it be useful for you? Have I missed something important here? I’d love to know what people think.

I think this will not be as big of a deal as you are thinking it is. I find this this to be cool and easy to fix because on reach and 4, you had to throw a pathway for people to walk on. which caused material and budget. on this one you can add in a kill boundary which cost nothing to add in. I think people will get past this and if they can’t, they have two more maps they can use plus all of the reimaged halo 2 maps

I go back and forth on this. I suppose you could put a hard kill boundary there and it will work but we also have 2 forge maps we haven’t seen. Maybe water is a kill boundary in one of those

> 2533274868062286;2:
> I think this will not be as big of a deal as you are thinking it is. I find this this to be cool and easy to fix because on reach and 4, you had to throw a pathway for people to walk on. which caused material and budget. on this one you can add in a kill boundary which cost nothing to add in. I think people will get past this and if they can’t, they have two more maps they can use plus all of the reimaged halo 2 maps

Not trying to be rude, but did you actually read through my post? I tried to explain in detail why it’s not always as simple as just “add in a kill boundry.” If you have anything other than a perfectly regular shaped map, you’re gonna have to chain together various safe or kill zones to give an even containment barrier, or even just a functional containment barrier at all.

If you want to use air vehicles, you’re either going to have to use tiered kill/safe zones to deal with infantry vs flying vehicles, or put up with having the same barriers for both. And hard kills or hard safes are basically out of the question with air vehicles, so having the water as an absolute barrier (rather than a gradual one, ie with a soft kill/safe) is either very difficult or impossible.

If you don’t wan’t a walkable sloping shore, you have to finely position hard kills around every tiny bit of the shore. If you have a perfectly square or circular island this is fine. But if you don’t (ie. almost all island maps), then you’re going to have to use loads and loads of kill zones to trace an exact outline around the edge of your map. That’s not just “add in a kill barrier,” that’s freaking arduous.

If you want to do any of the above, this is a big hassle. You’re gonna have to put in a lot more effort to make your map inescapable.

Your point about the other maps is well made, but ruling out 1/3 of the forge canvases for a large number of map types, just to save a couple of walls, seems like more of a downside than an upside.

And that’s not to mention how stupid it’s going to look when people fall in to a “death barrier” in the water and don’t sink, just lying there in the water instead. I know that’s only a small aesthetic factor, but when people have talked (for as long as forge has existed) about how forge maps don’t feel immersive and you always feel like you’re on a forge map, not a real map, I think stuff like this is worth thinking about.

I think it would be cool if they would create a mud terrain so I can make it look like people move slower inside the water or mud and jump lower then they do. Make it somewhat realistic.

But i do know what I am going to make first, A map with a decent lake lake in the middle, a small town on one of the side, a suburban on the other, and a factory in the middle of the lake with a road that connects both sides together. when you enter the water, you become slower, and have ten seconds before you die.

In Halo 4 you could set kill zones yourself, I believe. And it really only matters for island maps- if, say, you wanted a chasm splitting the map,you could just elevate it and set a kill boundary there. I think it won’t be too big of a deal. Plus theres 2 more skyboxes we have yet to see.

Regardless of whether or not the water should be a death zone by default, I think you should be allowed to go about chest deep into the water.

I would prefer it were deep, and then we could add pieces into the water to determine how deep we’d like it, but a non-issue.
I was very pleased with the Forge reveal, and my expectations in many regards were exceeded.

I think the addition of the shallow water is good, it will make for richer gameplay in custom matches. You can more than likely set kill zones as well so it shouldn’t be a problem.

I only hope that the water can be more than ankle deep because I’d like to make a map where you can crouch under water for stealth and surprise attacks.

> 2533274852650891;4:
> Not trying to be rude, but did you actually read through my post? I tried to explain in detail why it’s not always as simple as just “add in a kill boundry.” If you have anything other than a perfectly regular shaped map, you’re gonna have to chain together various safe or kill zones to give an even containment barrier, or even just a functional containment barrier at all.
>
> If you want to use air vehicles, you’re either going to have to use tiered kill/safe zones to deal with infantry vs flying vehicles, or put up with having the same barriers for both. And hard kills or hard safes are basically out of the question with air vehicles, so having the water as an absolute barrier (rather than a gradual one, ie with a soft kill/safe) is either very difficult or impossible.
>
> If you don’t wan’t a walkable sloping shore, you have to finely position hard kills around every tiny bit of the shore. If you have a perfectly square or circular island this is fine. But if you don’t (ie. almost all island maps), then you’re going to have to use loads and loads of kill zones to trace an exact outline around the edge of your map. That’s not just “add in a kill barrier,” that’s freaking arduous.
>
> If you want to do any of the above, this is a big hassle. You’re gonna have to put in a lot more effort to make your map inescapable.
>
> Your point about the other maps is well made, but ruling out 1/3 of the forge canvases for a large number of map types, just to save a couple of walls, seems like more of a downside than an upside.
>
> And that’s not to mention how stupid it’s going to look when people fall in to a “death barrier” in the water and don’t sink, just lying there in the water instead. I know that’s only a small aesthetic factor, but when people have talked (for as long as forge has existed) about how forge maps don’t feel immersive and you always feel like you’re on a forge map, not a real map, I think stuff like this is worth thinking about.

yes i did. I am saying that would not be to difficult. good forgers know to test their maps out before hand. and machinima makers will be able to figure out how to make this work to their side.

And why are you having a problem with air vehicles. Are you trying to turn them into submarines over there?

i really dont see the problem. plus we dont know how large the entire playspace for this forge map is…so as far as we know there could be a part w deeper water.

> 2533274803267398;12:
> i really dont see the problem. plus we dont know how large the entire playspace for this forge map is…so as far as we know there could be a part w deeper water.

Good point you make there that would be very cool if there was a gradual drop at another location or that it is not completely flat in other spots.

i like the shallow water, like they said, it means rivers and oceans etc can be made BUT that then means the whole map can be walked on, even with the kill boundaries it stopped soldiers walking out too far, now they can walk out as far as the kill boundary so mixed views really…
defo will be making rivers etc jusr nervous about map areas…

My understanding was that they placed the land just a little bit below water level, and im sure you can tilt the land under water to make it the “deep” end with the kill boundary.

i dont think the did because they said the waters only about a foot deep, i think they meant that for all over the map

I think it’d be cool to be able to dig below the water. Making some parts of the ocean deeper and others shallow. I’m still wondering how they made Beaver creak in forge when the underground bunker is more than a foot deep.

> 2533274960455648;17:
> I think it’d be cool to be able to dig below the water. Making some parts of the ocean deeper and others shallow. I’m still wondering how they made Beaver creak in forge when the underground bunker is more than a foot deep.

Going right to the edge but able to cover it up with a walkway. increasing the height until you reach the bunker

maybe there are certain spots in the water in the water that you can be killed on like when if they put landscape in the water to prevent you from dying and you can just remove them and I’m sure if those thoughts aren’t true they will get some complaints not a lot but enough for them to probably to make it a choice to drown in the water or to not

None of the things you said are more complicated than in the past. I don’t see how the shallow water can be anything but a positive.