Seven Steps to Fix JIP For Halo 5

Curse you, Jazzi! Now I have to organize my thoughts.

<mark>1) No quitting at the voting screen</mark>: Incredibly important. One of the problems with JIP is the prevalence of it. A big part of this is that games start with uneven teams any time someone backs out at the voting menu

<mark>2) Quitting penalties:</mark> Quitting needs to be discouraged. It has a negative impact on everyone in the game except for the person quitting. That is a perverse incentive and needs to be fixed. Screen for habitual quitters so people with a rare internet issue or a UPS delivery at the front door don’t get penalized. Creating games with good connections is also important for this to be viable. Can’t expect people to stay in games that are unplayable.

<mark>3) Quitters are most likely to get JIP</mark>: Let the people that are creating the problem bear the burden of it. If they continue to quit out of JIP games, then the measures from step 2 kick in. This also creates an incentive not to game whatever system of quit penalties is imposed.

<mark>4) Never JIP Twice in a Row</mark>: You shouldn’t have to play for half an hour before you get a game that is actually yours. Never more than once prevents it from being onerous on one person or dominating their game play experience.

<mark>5) The More you get JIP the less likely you are to get JIP</mark>: People that are carrying a heavy JIP burden should be weighted in such a way that they are unlikely to get it again. Someone with 4 JIP in ten games should be less likely to get it than someone with 2 in ten games.

<mark>6)The Further into a Game You Are, the Closer it has to Be</mark>: Well progressed games give you less time to influence the game. Similar leads also become more dominant when there is less time to overcome them. If you have to be within ten kills at the beginning of a game, then you should have to be within five kills or something half way through the game. Just throwing numbers out there for illustrative purposes. By no means proposing those exact numbers.

<mark>7) JIP Games Can Only Help Your In Game (hopefully) Ranking</mark>: Make JIP an opportunity instead of a burden. Right now people complain that it drags your CSR down. Make it so JIP at worst is a net of zero on your CSR (which will hopefully have a much better system in Halo 5). That makes JIP a zero risk proposition that people can be excited about.

<mark>8) Personal Ordinance Problem</mark>: JIP gives you zero progress towards your first power weapon when you join in. Other players may already have their first weapon. It creates a situation where you can be hopelessly outgunned even if you would outperform the other team on a level playing field. I’m in favor of removing personal ordinance, but in game types that include it you need to implement some kind of compensation.

<mark>9) There are three kinds of people</mark>: Those who can count, and those who can’t.

JIP is a good thing. In an eight man game, the one person that just joined in has a suboptimal experience. The other seven people are provided a better experience than they otherwise would have had. Clearly that is a situation where much more good than harm is being done.
The problem right now is with the specifics of implementation. You can get it too many times in a short period. There is too much need for it because of games starting without full teams and the lack of disincentives to quitting.
JIP is also implemented too often in games where it is a lost cause. The JIP is too little, too late. It benefits neither the person getting JIP or the seven people that he joined.
Implementing steps to reduce the prevalence of JIP, flatten out statistical variance, and ensure that it is used only when it is for the betterment of the game will emphasize the positive aspects of the system for seven people while minimizing the negative aspects for the one person out of eight.

PS: Jazzi, I’m not sure these are exactly my original steps, but at least five out of the first seven are the same.

I can do it in 1 step.

Step 1 - Remove it.

> I can do it in 1 step.
>
> Step 1 - Remove it.

Which removes all the potential benefits for everyone that plays the game.

A system that was poorly implemented being negative does not mean that a well implemented system similar in nature would also be negative.

Thanks for making this! You obviously put some time into it.

I like all these ideas, especially 3, 6 and 7.

For me, the most annoying thing about the current form of JIP is that most of the time it joins us into losing games towards the end of the match.
It would be nice to be safe in the knowledge that ranks wouldn’t be hurt, and that it wasn’t likely to put me in the last one minute of a game which I’m losing terribly; it would seem like 6 and 7 would take care of those problems.

I did notice that you didn’t include a suggestion where players should have the option of whether or not to use JIP, but upon thinking about it, I’m guessing that it is because most people would choose not to use it, thus diminishing the benefits which it could bring if it was implemented properly?

I’m in favor of retooling PO to be completely different so that these two mechanics don’t interfere with each other. Or we could just have Jip as an optional search criteria.

> I can do it in 1 step.
>
> Step 1 - Remove it.

Honestly, I hope you’re considering the benefits before you come to that conclusion.
Though I fully understand that you may have considered them, and just don’t believe the benefits to outweigh the annoyance of joining games late.

Either way, I think that these ideas would turn JIP from a terrible feature, to a beneficial and tolerable one.

> I did notice that you didn’t include a suggestion where players should have the option of whether or not to use JIP, but upon thinking about it, I’m guessing that it is because most people would choose not to use it, thus diminishing the benefits which it could bring if it was implemented properly?

Yeah. It becomes a fallacy of scale. If that option is available, it is beneficial to me as an individual to deactivate JIP. The problem is that it is beneficial to every INDIVIDUAL to deactivate it. It is negative for each individual if every individual activates it.

In this case, regulation creates a better outcome for everyone involved because the market’s solution is suboptimal.

> > I can do it in 1 step.
> >
> > Step 1 - Remove it.
>
> Which removes all the potential benefits for everyone that plays the game.
>
> A system that was poorly implemented being negative does not mean that a well implemented system similar in nature would also be negative.

Kinda like sprint. Just sayin’ :slight_smile:
On topic, I really like these ideas, though I think JIP should just be for social playlists, not ranked.

> I can do it in 1 step.
>
> Step 1 - Remove it.

That’s very nonconstructive, and I cannot not possibly disagree more with you.

We don’t have to remove JiP, it ensures that regular 4 v 4 matches don’t turn into 4 v 1 teabagging sessions. And if you don’t like JiP, don’t quit. It’s hypocritical to start complaining about Join-in-Progress when you probably quit all of the time.

That’s why, instead of removing Join-in-Progress, I suggest that the quitters get to enjoy the burden that they’ve placed on everyone. After every match you quit, you will get a JiP in the next one, and the chances of getting JiPs will grow exponentially. However, you can redeem yourself. If you do not quit a Matchmaking game for a month, then your chances of getting a JiP will decrease over time.

> Kinda like sprint. Just sayin’ :slight_smile:
> On topic, I really like these ideas, though I think JIP should just be for social playlists, not ranked.

lol. Point taken, although I’ve outlined my objections to sprint at a conceptual level. So neener neener! =P

I prefer having it in ranked as well. Having one person JIP when the score is 15/12 doesn’t undermine the ranking system any more than having games where you play half the game 4v2. What if these measures made it so instead of JIP being needed in two out of every three games, you only needed it one out of every four? You’ll also notice that measure seven directly addresses how ranking could be handled for the person getting JIPed. It would create a slight upward skew, but part of this premise is that you are greatly reducing the number of quitters so JIP isn’t such a huge part of the experience.

> > > I can do it in 1 step.
> > >
> > > Step 1 - Remove it.
> >
> > Which removes all the potential benefits for everyone that plays the game.
> >
> > A system that was poorly implemented being negative does not mean that a well implemented system similar in nature would also be negative.
>
> Kinda like sprint. Just sayin’ :slight_smile:
> On topic, I really like these ideas, though I think JIP should just be for social playlists, not ranked.

Hmm I don’t agree that sprint is something which could be fixed in the same way, but I’m sure we’re all happy to agree to disagree by now. :stuck_out_tongue:

I love how we’ve almost turned into a little circle of Waypoint pals lol.

Out of curiosity, when you say that JIP should not be present for Ranked, what makes you say that?
I would have said the same thing, but I can’t see any major problems with it if point number 7 in the OP is implemented.
Though for me, it is early on in hearing these ideas, so there could be potential problems I’m yet to see.

They shouldn’t have JIP, rather people that quit should just be more likely to be teamed with other people that do so, this goes for team betrayal too. (AKA Gamer Hell)

To get out of this, complete games with out quitting or betraying.

Also people that stay in a game when there team quits should get a bonus for staying this wouldn’t work though if you were in a party of any size and the more people that quit the more of a bonus you would get at finishing the game.

You should also not receive any XP from the game you quit and no stats/commendations will be recorded.

> > > > I can do it in 1 step.
> > > >
> > > > Step 1 - Remove it.
> > >
> > > Which removes all the potential benefits for everyone that plays the game.
> > >
> > > A system that was poorly implemented being negative does not mean that a well implemented system similar in nature would also be negative.
> >
> > Kinda like sprint. Just sayin’ :slight_smile:
> > On topic, I really like these ideas, though I think JIP should just be for social playlists, not ranked.
>
> Hmm I don’t agree that sprint is something which could be fixed in the same way, but I’m sure we’re all happy to agree to disagree by now. :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> I love how we’ve almost turned into a little circle of Waypoint pals lol.
>
> Out of curiosity, when you say that JIP should not be present for Ranked, what makes you say that?
> I would have said the same thing, but I can’t see any major problems with it if point number 7 in the OP is implemented.
> Though for me, it is early on in hearing these ideas, so there could be potential problems I’m yet to see.

Lol I was just teasing him about sprint; I reaspect his opinions :slight_smile:
But as for the ranked thing, I just feel that players wouldn’t just want to join a game that’s already started if their CSR matters that much to them. I actually think CSR would actually diminish the quitting rate, since there’s actually a penalty. But I wouldn’t mind JIP applying to social AND ranked, but I know quite a few people that would.

> as for the ranked thing, I just feel that players wouldn’t just want to join a game that’s already started if their CSR matters that much to them.

Measure seven to the rescue!

> > as for the ranked thing, I just feel that players wouldn’t just want to join a game that’s already started if their CSR matters that much to them.
>
> Measure seven to the rescue!

Oh, right. Well…nevermind :slight_smile:

> Lol I was just teasing him about sprint; I reaspect his opinions :slight_smile:

Oh no I know you do! I wouldn’t suggest otherwise.

> But as for the ranked thing, I just feel that players wouldn’t just want to join a game that’s already started if their CSR matters that much to them. <mark>I actually think CSR would actually diminish the quitting rate, since there’s actually a penalty.</mark>

I hadn’t thought about that, good point.

Though I can’t speak for Ranked fans, as I’m not really one of them, I would guess that they would enjoy the benefits more than they would hate the inconvenience.
From their point of view, they’re losing the freedom to join every game from the start (but not the freedom to keep their rank when they join in progress), while gaining the benefits of having teammates join their Ranked games when people have quit.
I could be horribly wrong of course.

It would be interesting to hear what some of those players think of it.

> Curse you, Jazzi! Now I have to organize my thoughts.

You and Jazzi need to get 343i to organise their thoughts on the lines you propose. Top Ideas.

> > I can do it in 1 step.
> >
> > Step 1 - Remove it.
>
> That’s very nonconstructive, and I cannot not possibly disagree more with you.
>
> We don’t have to remove JiP, it ensures that regular 4 v 4 matches don’t turn into 4 v 1 teabagging sessions. And if you don’t like JiP, don’t quit. It’s hypocritical to start complaining about Join-in-Progress when you probably quit all of the time.
>
> That’s why, instead of removing Join-in-Progress, I suggest that the quitters get to enjoy the burden that they’ve placed on everyone. After every match you quit, you will get a JiP in the next one, and the chances of getting JiPs will grow exponentially. However, you can redeem yourself. If you do not quit a Matchmaking game for a month, then your chances of getting a JiP will decrease over time.

I never quit. I always try my best to win no matter what, even though I am put into a game where our team are 30 kills down.

I support ways in which 343 should try to preserve the players in the game instead of just filling the spots back up again, by for example a ranking system, a strict one like in Halo 2 and 3, where the only way to rank up was to win, ultimately ending in everyone trying to do their best, even though all hope seemed lost. Not only that but the teams would be evened, hindering one of the teams to get stomped, hindering most of the quitters.

And ways where the players were punished if they quit, like for example losing exp (or a gentle ban).

Based on my perspective I feel that mentality at high level game-play is completely different from low level game-play. And if we could somehow change everyone’s mentality from “I don’t care” to “let’s win” things would get a lot better.

> > Curse you, Jazzi! Now I have to organize my thoughts.
>
> You and Jazzi need to get 343i to organise their thoughts on the lines you propose. Top Ideas.

Game design would be alot of fun! Lucky for you guys I’m not involved. As much as I advocate focus in game design, if it actually fell to me you would end up with a hopeless hodgepodge of every idea I ever had.

> I never quit. I always try my best to win no matter what, even though I am put into a game where our team are 30 kills down.
>
> I support ways in which 343 should try to preserve the players in the game instead of just filling the spots back up again, by for example a ranking system, a strict one like in Halo 2 and 3, where the only way to rank up was to win, ultimately ending in everyone trying to do their best, even though all hope seemed lost. Not only that but the teams would be evened, hindering one of the teams to get stomped, hindering most of the quitters.
>
> And ways where the players were punished if they quit, like for example losing exp (or a gentle ban).
>
> Based on my perspective I feel that mentality at high level game-play is completely different from low level game-play. And if we could somehow change everyone’s mentality from “I don’t care” to “let’s win” things would get a lot better.

That’s all fair enough.

You say that you think it is the players who quit that should be punished, so do you not agree with the idea that only players who have quit their previous game, will be joining their next game in progress?