Settling the Controller vs KBM debate with data

Games Halo Infinite
168

I think you’re thinking of a nerf in too significant of an amount. A proper balancing pass shouldn’t be drastic. A tweak to both AA on controller and bullet mag on M&K would likely even things out a bit. M&K shouldn’t become all powerful, but it does need to be elevated to a level playing field with the combo of AA and bullet mag on controller. Increasing bullet mag on M&K alone won’t do that, IMO. With Halo’s long TTK, tracking is the issue overall, with accuracy coming in after shields pop. Increasing bullet mag too much on M&K would make it unfair since you’d just have to be “close enough”, so a slight increase in bullet mag on M&K to lower the likelihood of sailing rounds between someone’s legs or armpits, and a slight decrease in AA “pull”/“tracking” would bring the level of consistency of strafe tracking closer together on both inputs.

Overall though, if a player finds a properly balanced game unfun, I’d posit that this is the player’s own issue. If a player can’t have fun when the fight is fair, are they really mature enough to play competitively against others?

169

Please note I am not auguring with you. I think I speak for most KBM users, we do not want the game to assist us with our kills. We want raw input, we don’t want any help. I do not believe the fix here would be to give KBM assisting in any way. We want to know we deserved that win in said gun fight.

It’s clear that controller users do not want the same, they want all the assisting they can get. Maybe because they feel they need it? How would they know they need it if they cannot compare it to a change that would balance the two closer together? Again, and I cannot stress this enough, never have a said they need to get rid of it.

1 Like
170

There are games without Aim Assist. If people wanted to play those they would. Halo has aim assist for a long time. People like it that way. The kills you still earned. You’re playing by the rules of the game. So is the opponent. If you both are using the same input device the better player will get the kill. Aim Assist or no Aim assist that remains true.

And that’s cool if you don’t want any bullet magnetism or anything. But then how do you balance Infinite without nerfing controller players? The game has primarily been a console franchise, and I don’t think it’s fair to go in and change how the game plays for controller players in order to appeal to a different audience. Which is why I am suggesting buffing mnk. I guess you don’t want to do that, but surely you understand why asking to change a franchise to appeal to a new audience isn’t going to make people happy.

171

Why wouldn’t increasing bullet magnetism on mnk, nerfing strafing, reducing aim assist to red reticle, and adding back red reticle range to PC be able to balance the game? I’ve said I supported all of those things.

172

You do nerf controller players. That’s the whole point in balancing. At it’s current state, the assisting controller receives is too much.

173

Controller players don’t feel that way. Which is why you’re going to be meet with resistance. Nerfing aim assist is going to make a lot of people unhappy. I’m all for balancing the input devices. But I don’t want to franchise changed to appeal to a new audience.

174

At this point, unfortunately, I have to agree. They already burned the M&K bridge, that community is mostly gone now. If they were to nerf controller AA, they would burn another bridge and alienate another community.

343 has chosen to alienate the M&K community and they aren’t coming back.

2 Likes
175

They could starting lower it step by step, like 2 to 3% here and there that way it’s not a dramatic change at once.

176

Yea, for sure, they could do that. But it’s just crazy to me that controller vs M&K has been a heated discussion topic ever since Reach first came to PC. And what has 343 done to quell these discussions? They give Aim Assist a buff at Infinite launch… I’ve come to terms that if they ever do decide to address these concerns, it won’t be for at least a few years.

2 Likes
177

It’s all about how much you work on those things. Too much bullet mag on M&K and it’s just the reverse situation - M&K users don’t have to aim beyond the general area of the opponent (it does need a slight buff, IMO, as I said though. Just slight, however, in the interest of not needing to nerf AA too much). That is the balancing act that needs to be explored - the more you increase bullet mag on M&K, the less you need to decrease AA on controller, but the more you increase bullet mag, the more potential for M&K to become OP. So, it’s small changes here and there - a tiny bullet mag increase, a tiny AA decrease, gather data, evaluate feedback.

A strafe nerf might be nice, but it doesn’t change the fact that, regardless, M&K users feel every bit of human error when tracking strafe, even when it’s easier, than controller players do thanks to the currently overtuned AA. Thus, between a slight M&K bullet mag buff (a few percentage points honestly), and a slight AA stickiness nerf, they are closer and more fair. AA still exists, it’s still assisting. The goal is still for it to feel good on controller - I think they have more work to do there with sensitivity curves and whatnot, IMO - but not for it to be OP.

Red reticle range really doesn’t actually do much for AA/bullet mag, it’s just a visual indicator that you’re within optimal range for your weapon, TBH.

Again, my point is that changes ought to be slight and well considered, not an overcorrection. How many controller players would even notice a 2.5%-5% reduction in AA stickiness if they weren’t told it was made? 7.5%? 10%? I think most controller players wouldn’t notice it at those lower levels. But, M&K players would notice a more level playing field.

The problem here is - 343 invited PC users in, along with their input device of preference (M&K). Now, it’d be rude and simply poor hospitality to say “Well, these folks were hanging out with us beforehand, we aren’t going to bother ensuring you’re treated with equal respect. We’re not going to go out of our way to ensure that you have a good time, this is how it is, deal with it.” That is the effective message when one says that we can’t nerf a thing that needs nerfed, no matter how slight the nerf is, because of someone’s perception of getting less assistance.

178

Red reticle range really doesn’t actually do much for AA/bullet mag, it’s just a visual indicator that you’re within optimal range for your weapon, TBH.

I know it doesn’t. But if they limited aim assist to red reticle range that would be a slight nerf I’d be okay with personally.

Again, my point is that changes ought to be slight and well considered, not an overcorrection. How many controller players would even notice a 2.5%-5% reduction in AA stickiness if they weren’t told it was made? 7.5%? 10%? I think most controller players wouldn’t notice it at those lower levels. But, M&K players would notice a more level playing field.

If it’s very slight I wouldn’t have an issue myself. Too much though and you will alienate controller players.

The problem here is - 343 invited PC users in, along with their input device of preference (M&K). Now, it’d be rude and simply poor hospitality to say “Well, these folks were hanging out with us beforehand, we aren’t going to bother ensuring you’re treated with equal respect. We’re not going to go out of our way to ensure that you have a good time, this is how it is, deal with it.” That is the effective message when one says that we can’t nerf a thing that needs nerfed, no matter how slight the nerf is, because of someone’s perception of getting less assistance.

I see it more as this was the audience that having been playing Halo for a long time. If they want to appeal to a new crowd that’s fine, but is anyone happy when to appeal to a new audience a company throws the old audience under the bus? I know I wasn’t happy with Elder Scrolls or Fallout where to appeal to a wider audience Bethesda kept alienating more and more of their old fans. I think they can make things balanced without having to impact controller players too much, if at all. But first they have to try. How well would a slight buff to magnetism balance things? How much would it paired with a nerf to strafing balance things? I don’t know, but first they have to try. I’d rather they try and balance with slight buffs before nerfs.

179

Here’s the thing. When putting controller with KBM, you tune controller to closer compete with KBM. if you need to add assistance to KBM to compete with controller, then controller is tuned too strong.

It’s like a race between a Ferrari and a Miata. You mod the Miata to keep up with the Ferrari, now if the Miata is faster than the Ferrari you start to detune the Miata, you don’t add to the Ferrari.

3 Likes
180

Here’s the thing. Halo has had this aim assist on consoles for a long time. The game has primarily been a console franchise. Crossplay and releasing the games simultaneous on PC are new. Nerfing the controller is changing the game for the core audience. It also makes the game less fun for controller players. And isn’t really wanted by controller players. A slight buff to mnk can balance things without alienating controller players.

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“Has”, this is Halo today and they included both inputs since day one. It’s clear they messed up.

182

Yes. And they tried to appeal to a new audience. I don’t think they should alienate the old. Nerfing aim assist could do that. Buffing mnk wouldn’t do that, and could balance things in my opinion. Maybe slight nerfs to aim assist that most players wouldn’t notice, but nerfing things too much and you’d definitely alienate a lot of people. That doesn’t fix things, it just creates new problems and alienates a lot of the core fans.

183

I still wouldn’t say this. All halo’s but Guardians is on PC, and Halo has seen PC since 2003. I think we need to drop this saying and this excuse.

It’s just the first Halo that launched on both PC and Xbox. It isn’t the first Halo to be on PC.

1 Like
184

100% agree - my goal is not to trade the wants of one group for the other, but rather to treat the M&K crowd as well as the controller crowd. No reduction to how well they’re treated, nothing like that, just not have a favorite kid - both inputs are the favorite kid.

I think there’s a difference between changing game design to make the appeal broader, and tuning mechanics and tweaking values for configurations in a competitive game. Especially when the design goal is likely that they be on an even playing ground to begin with.

I see no way in which PC isn’t the core audience as well. The core audience for Halo Infinite is Halo players, full stop. Microsoft and 343’s strategy is literally “Halo for all, no matter where you play”. Not just M&K players, not just controller players, not just Xbox players, not just PC players. Balancing out the inputs will involve more than a buff to one input, there will be nerfs and buffs across both. It’s the reality of games and balancing.

Nobody here is advocating for nerfing anything too much, though. We are just advocating for it to be better balanced. Nobody here has said anything about making it so that controller players can’t compete or that their experience is ruined. The ask is to improve the M&K experience, through a combo of buffs and nerfs, but ones that do not ruin the controller experience. That is why they call it balancing - make it better without ruining things through large changes. We want everyone to be able to play, with their choice of input, without it being a bad experience. No giant nerfs/buffs, just incremental, data-driven adjustments.

185

It’s not an excuse. Look, every Halo game has released first and foremost on consoles. Halo was the xbox’s primary exclusive for a long time. Halo 2 didn’t launch on PC til almost the time Halo 3 launched on consoles, and after that it took til 2019 for PC to get any more official Halo games. With Reach not included right away with MCC. And it never got Halo 5. The game has primarily been a console franchise for a long time. They want to widen the audience and release the game on PC now at the same time. I’m cool with that. I’m cool with balancing the inputs as well. But you nerf aim assist too much, and you alienate the controller players, who wither you like it not, have been the core audience for a long time. I don’t think any game should alienate the core fans to appeal to new players. And I don’t think Infinite needs to. Nerf strafing, buff Magnetism on PC, reduce Aim Assist to Red Reticle, and maybe a slight general nerf to aim assist that most players wouldn’t notice and you could balance the game without alienating anyone. If all you do is nerf aim assist though, you’re going to have to nerf it quite a bit to balance thing, and you would alienate controller players in doing so.

186

I think there’s a difference between changing game design to make the appeal broader, and tuning mechanics and tweaking values for configurations in a competitive game. Especially when the design goal is likely that they be on an even playing ground to begin with.

If you’re alienating the core fans you’re alienating the core fans. I don’t think that’s necessary to balance things.

I see no way in which PC isn’t the core audience as well. The core audience for Halo Infinite is Halo players, full stop. Microsoft and 343’s strategy is literally “Halo for all, no matter where you play”. Not just M&K players, not just controller players, not just Xbox players, not just PC players. Balancing out the inputs will involve more than a buff to one input, there will be nerfs and buffs across both. It’s the reality of games and balancing.

The game has primarily been a console franchise since it’s inception. This is literally the first Halo game that has release on PC alongside consoles. It is a change. Trying to get the PC market along with the console market at the same time is new. I hope it works out. But really, the game has been primarily a console franchise, and I don’t think console players should be alienated. It seems like you don’t think they should be either.

Nobody here is advocating for nerfing anything too much, though. We are just advocating for it to be better balanced. Nobody here has said anything about making it so that controller players can’t compete or that their experience is ruined. The ask is to improve the M&K experience, through a combo of buffs and nerfs, but ones that do not ruin the controller experience. That is why they call it balancing - make it better without ruining things through large changes. We want everyone to be able to play, with their choice of input, without it being a bad experience. No giant nerfs/buffs, just incremental, data-driven adjustments.

You haven’t, but the other user here is suggesting only nerfs to aim assist to balance things. I don’t think you can only nerf aim assist and balance things without nerfing it quite a bit and alienating a lot of people. You suggestion of slight nerfs to aim assist along with other changes to mnk is something I think I’m on board with now that I’ve talked to you more.

187

To be fair though, Halo was conceived as an RTS game on Windows and Macintosh, then potentially a PS2 port, and then finally landed on Xbox. Halo’s inception was all over the place. It finally landed on Xbox, but has been on PC since 2003. And yes, I don’t think anyone should be alienated - and I don’t think a balancing pass will alienate anyone, so long as it’s not ham-fisted.

As much as people like to dump on 343, I do think they at least try to take care and make thoughtful changes. They goof up on occasion (sometimes a lot), but they do try. I don’t envy their position - no matter what they do, they’re gonna get dumped on. So, if they do perform a balancing pass, I have no doubt that they’d work to avoid trashing the controller experience, no matter how many people ask them to.