You’re just talking nonsense at this point. CoD controller is so ridiculous in comparison to M/K, it’s insane you’d even say something like that. You’re just so out of touch. Warzone controller dominates, and MP m/k is even worse. It’s so controller heavy. And this “10x the amount of aim assist” ??? what??? Halo’s aim-assist literally aims for you. You actually don’t even have to touch the aim stick in half the fights. You just want the advantage and to look away from the actual disadvantage we’re at. You’d rather us quit the game and play with the same people every game than have them balance out the inputs. It’s what’ll kill the game.
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MKB has advantage on literally every single FPS game. I play MKB on games like CoD for the massive advantage but Halo is a controller game plain and simple. The game should not cater to MKB.
So you believe that because this game has been previously a Controller only game or because other games cater to KBM that KBM players should be at a disadvantage in this game?
This is also assuming that there even is a discrepancy to begin with as the data provided by OP is of the top players which does not represent the vast majority of players.
It is not meant to represent the skill of the average player. It is meant to eliminate skill as a variable. If you are building a Crossplay system, the system should have an equal experience regardless of personal skill. When the mechanical assistance is balanced, all that is left is skill and you are fairly measured against the other input type. How you ran face first into the point and missed it is shockingly impressive!
You can also shove this opinion. Just proves you shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Says the person that in the same post basically said Halo shouldn’t balance their game to make it even for both inputs because “Halo is a controller game.” Guess what kiddo, previous Halo’s were controller games. Infinite is a Crossplay game for Controller and KBM. So… You can also shove this opinion. Just proves you shouldn’t be taken seriously.
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I switched from controller back to MKB on Warzone because it’s a huge advantage. In terms of movement and aim. It’s skill gap is just large. MKB will always have an advantage over controller.
We also both know that Halo’s “aim assist” is completely inconsistent and doesn’t work half the time. Otherwise half the community would be complaining about it’s just randomly turning off mid game. Which always requires a reset to fix. Out of all the Halo games infinite has the least amount of aim assist. And you know it.
There is one M/K player in the top 20 earners in Warzone. It’s super controller heavy. You’re just a casual in every game you play. Lol Which is why you think there’s nothing wrong with the input’s balance in this game. It’s because you haven’t felt what it’s like playing at 1900+ Onyx while playing controller players. Half of them have bot movement and awareness but their auto-aim keeps them competitive. Meanwhile I have to be doing my best TenZ impression to even approach 2k Onyx. It’s absurdly lopsided.
I’m not sure if you noticed or not but games like Call of Duty and Halo are mostly played on console. Console is the largest group of players. PC makes up a fraction of the gaming community. You’ll always feel behind if you have that mindset. MKB has an advantage, always has and most like always will. But it’s also very skilled heavy. Don’t hate a game simply because 90% of the people playing the game is on controller. You’re just out numbered. The game has issues across the board but MKB isn’t at a disadvantage. It’s just another learning curve and skill gape people will have to adapt too.
Cod and halo are bad comparisons for accuracy data on inputs. They’re just so different, and imho, a mnk player can do very well there (cod) since there isn’t a strafe like there is in halo. That’s the whole argument for the mnk players vs game pad. We’re able to get more assistance throughout are fights where in another game its basically like 2 players essentially stop moving and hold down the snail trigger mode. Then…aim assist itself is just less impactful in the comparison of the 2 inputs. That’s not to say it’s entirely not impactful at all, but in a game like halo aim assist is very impactful. It’s necessary to the game for many reasons for game pad users though. It’s only become an issue now since cross play exists and we see the discrepancy between the 2.
Idk who initially brought cod up, but I just wanted to put this out anyways that it’s a bad comparison.
You still haven’t eliminated skill as a variable, because Halo has been a console franchise for over 20 years. Only recently did they start porting most of the games to PC. So it stands to reason that a lot of the top players on console will have more experience. By focusing on the top end you still haven’t ensured that the players in each pole have similar experience at the game. It’s still a variable.
Regardless of that though, I do think focusing on the average player is the way to go. Most of us aren’t going to be the top players in the game. Most people are well, average. And they’re the players I think the game should be balanced around. You’re free to disagree of course, but I really do think the average player is who matters most.
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You still haven’t eliminated skill as a variable, because Halo has been a console franchise for over 20 years. Only recently did they start porting most of the games to PC. So it stands to reason that a lot of the top players on console will have more experience. By focusing on the top end you still haven’t ensured that the players in each pole have similar experience at the game. It’s still a variable.
I think you have some misguided idea that because halo is new to KBM that FPS players (including the top KBM players in Halo) are playing below their potential because Halo is “new.” Not only are you wrong but you are using your incorrect assumptions to further a point that at its core is wrong with or without the extra opinion about KBM players’ skill. At their core, all FPS games are the same and the top KBM Halo players are definitely an accurate representation of the max output potential of the input type. These players didn’t just stumble into playing Halo and end up at the top. They are skilled KBM FPS players.
Regardless of that though, I do think focusing on the average player is the way to go. Most of us aren’t going to be the top players in the game. Most people are well, average. And they’re the players I think the game should be balanced around. You’re free to disagree of course, but I really do think the average player is who matters most.
You are missing the point. A Crossplay game should be balanced for both input types without a skill factor. We don’t take average players because picking 1000 random, “average” Plat 1 accounts will give you wildly different actual skill levels. We use top players because they are as close to “perfect” as we can get unless you have an AI that we can test with.
You are right that this doesn’t completely remove the skill variable because ‘humans be human’ but the data tells a story eliminates it for you. You can throw all the stats out the window that show Controller players with higher stats than KBM players and just focus on the one that is indisputable. When KBM players only play KBM players their stats are better than when they play with Controller players. When a Controller player plays only with Controller players their stats are worse than when they play with KBM players. The fact that we see this shift when mixed tells us all by itself that Controller players have an advantage in the mixed environment they don’t experience in the Controller only environment. If it was balanced, these stats would have remained equal in the averages to their separate game modes.
I get what you are saying about the average player experience being important and I don’t disagree. Hopefully, this analogy will help my point make sense.
You set up a wall with two holes in it of different sizes. You get the starting pitchers for each Pro baseball team in America and split them in two groups and one group throws at hole one while the other group throws at hole two. Are their skills exact? No, but as close to the best as we will find. We see that the group with the larger hole makes more shots.
Now we do the same thing with 100 average people. On average both sides make fewer shots because they are average compared to the pros but the average will still favor the larger hole over the smaller hole.
Now if we balance the game and make the holes the same larger size, the pros will still have a higher output than the average players but comparing pro to pro with the size difference eliminated, we will see balanced stats for each equally sized hole. When the average players throw, they will still not compare to the pros but compared to their average competition, the average stats for each hole will also be balanced.
For this type of balancing, balancing the game for the top players balances the game for all players and top player metrics are easier to use to determine the balance and cascade the results to the average players.
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You’re explaining perfectly how to keep the Halo franchise in this low populated, everybody complaining state. I was a 50 in every playlist in H3. I was a 50-5 star-general in the MLG playlist. And then I moved on and started playing PC games. Everybody in these comments sections wants to act like because we’re M/K players we’ve never played Halo. Like, hello??? We’ve played, we’ve been playing. We have the same awareness and game sense that we had when playing on a controller. We’ve just moved on, and a lot of us are even better at FPS games on M/K than we were on a controller, yet when we login into Halo we’re unable to compete at the level we know and have been competing at because of a strict input disadvantage.
And for you to actually sit here and say that the game should be catered to the average player when comparing the two inputs is just such a bad take. We need to look at the highest level of play so we can balance them out and have a diverse community. I can’t tell you how much more Halo I’d watch if there were actual M/K pros in the scene. Do Halo fans just want the game to not sell on a large scale? Why do you want it to stay bad for us? It’s not us making this up because we’re bad at Halo and don’t know how to play. It’s objectively worse for M/K users. Halo needs a more diverse community to help grow the game.
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CoD isn’t better on M/K than it is on controller. There isn’t a single competitive CoD playlist that M/K users can actually compete. It’s a very controller heavy game. They’re actually very comparable because the lack of balance in both games. That dude that brought up CoD is just lost. He has no idea what he’s talking about.
I think you have some misguided idea that because halo is new to KBM that FPS players (including the top KBM players in Halo) are playing below their potential because Halo is “new.” Not only are you wrong but you are using your incorrect assumptions to further a point that at its core is wrong with or without the extra opinion about KBM players’ skill. At their core, all FPS games are the same and the top KBM Halo players are definitely an accurate representation of the max output potential of the input type. These players didn’t just stumble into playing Halo and end up at the top. They are skilled KBM FPS players.
Wow, this comes across as pretty hostile. Look, if you want a conversation don’t be condescending.
Also, I do think that there is a point about Halo being new to players. It’s TTK is a lot higher than other games. A lot of the game is about positioning. Headshots matter less due to shields than in other games. Halo has different objectives than other games. There are some aspects that are unique to it, and unless you attempt to control for those they could impact your data.
You are missing the point. A Crossplay game should be balanced for both input types without a skill factor. We don’t take average players because picking 1000 random, “average” Plat 1 accounts will give you wildly different actual skill levels. We use top players because they are as close to “perfect” as we can get unless you have an AI that we can test with.
You’re missing the point that I was giving my opinion. Look at what you’re replying to. In my opinion the game should be balanced around the average player. It should be balanced around being fun and balanced for them. And with input devices that aren’t really equal in their skill ceilings, level of precision, or really any aspects, it will be hard to get the game perfectly balance without factoring skill. Even when look at the top players you are balancing around their skill. Not some theoretical max skill level that could be attained with the devices.
You are right that this doesn’t completely remove the skill variable because ‘humans be human’ but the data tells a story eliminates it for you. You can throw all the stats out the window that show Controller players with higher stats than KBM players and just focus on the one that is indisputable. When KBM players only play KBM players their stats are better than when they play with Controller players. When a Controller player plays only with Controller players their stats are worse than when they play with KBM players. The fact that we see this shift when mixed tells us all by itself that Controller players have an advantage in the mixed environment they don’t experience in the Controller only environment. If it was balanced, these stats would have remained equal in the averages to their separate game modes.
I never disputed an advantage, and I even said I’d be okay with balancing things to make them more fair. I don’t want nerfs to controller, but I’d be okay with buffs for mnk. I just think the average player is who we should be considering, and that’s an opinion of mine.
Now we do the same thing with 100 average people. On average both sides make fewer shots because they are average compared to the pros but the average will still favor the larger hole over the smaller hole.
I agree. I just think these are the people we should balance the game around.
Now if we balance the game and make the holes the same larger size, the pros will still have a higher output than the average players but comparing pro to pro with the size difference eliminated, we will see balanced stats for each equally sized hole. When the average players throw, they will still not compare to the pros but compared to their average competition, the average stats for each hole will also be balanced.
We’re talking about two different input devices though. It’s apples to oranges. They aren’t fundamentally the same. The skill ceilings are theoretically different. A pro in one group might be X% better than the average player while a pro in the other might be Y% better than the average player with their input device. If we balance the game so the pros are on a level footing, then you’d have the average player with on input device performing 100(1-100/(1+X))% worse than the pros (who now both perform equally) and with another input they’d be performing 100(1-100/(1+Y))% worse than the pros, and 100(1-100/(1+X)) need not equal 100(1-100/(1+Y)). So I agree we need to balance things, I just disagree we should balance around the top. Balancing for the top players doesn’t necessarily balance it for all players as I’ve just shown mathematically. With baseball your example was pros for the same group, here we have qualitatively different groups. Apples to oranges.
Also, in this game it wouldn’t be hard to get data for the average player. The data for all players is on Halo Tracker. This isn’t like Baseball where we only have the stats of pro players.
I never said it wasn’t worse for MnK players. Where did I say that? Maybe in the past, but in this thread, I have not. I have called for buffing MnK in this thread. You can read my other comments.
And your point is anecdotal evidence. I was giving an example of why we might expect on average on group to have more experience with the franchise. But regardless of that, I stand by what I said. I don’t think looking at the top players totally eliminates skill. I actually think it’d be hard to do without pooling people’s experience with past titles and what not. Data you could get from an actual study on the topic. If we’re just using data, I do think it should be from average players, and that’s my opinion. I’d be willing to bet there’d be a discrepancy in the average players as well. Would it be as high? Would it be higher? I don’t know. But that’s the group I’d personally like the game balanced around. You’re free to disagree. But don’t tell me my opinions are wrong.
Are they really that comparable though? Would an average mnk player do better in 1 than the other? Personally imo, its harder to hit a moving target consistently. With aim assist, its manageable but still hard for the lower skilled players. If its a pretty fast ttk game though…you’re rewarded for having good reaction speed and high sensitivity. Like the moment 2 players aim at each other its normally never a battle of who can strafe better. Its more like who can snap onto the target faster. That being said, sure theres sticky aim on aim assist…but also snapping onto a target moving slow in cod with mnk vs trying to snap and stay on target with mnk in halo…you don’t believe theres a big difference there bro?
To me there definitely is. Theyre so different. If thats your opinion on it though, well that’s fine. I dont particularly play cod. The only one i did play was the one everyone hated. I tried the old ones when i was younger but the fights felt boring to me and felt no dynamic or uniqueness between engagements. In halo I do , so thats why ive stuck woth this game for so long.
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So for the aspiring M/K Halo players that were looking to go pro just get shafted? I get that you’re plat 1 and gold 5 in your respected ranked playlists. And that you don’t play the game competitively, and that’s just fine. I get that. But you can’t just sit here and say the top tier players data should be ignored because the majority of the player-base is plat. That’s some BS man. We need balance at the top level of play so M/K’s top tier players can compete. Or else why did they even make cross-play, if not to add a new flock of players on a new input to be involved in the scene to grow the community?
Don’t bring my rank into it. Ad Hominems have no place in civil discussion.
And I personally think the average player matters more. Sorry, but that’s my opinion. Again, you’re free to disagree. I don’t mind that you don’t agree. You aren’t entitled to me agree with your opinions. I think the majority is more important. And I think we’d still need to buff mnk.
Don’t call me man.
Edit: Also, if you want to bring me into it personally. I’m also a controller player. Buffing the game for mnk players at all lowers my effectiveness against them. Yet I’m call for buffs for mnk. Clearly I’m not doing that for me.
The setttings in this game is bad. I read you played h3 competitively, so you’d understand it perfectly. What this game needs is an adjustment to bridge the 2 inputs closer together, and do social, default rank, and hcs like how halo 3 had social, ranked and mlg with their own settings. Essentially we would have this
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slowed BMS for social and standard ranked, with aim assist lowered (this mitigates the impact it has on players that have always either played social or light competitive. Halo 3s social and default ranked had BMS 100% while Mlg playlist had 110% bms. So its still enjoyable for the lower half players, and brings back the feeling of playing standard ranked for people who grinded the standard ranked.
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hsc follows the tournament settings. Faster BMS and all that it is today, with the new aim assist value to brisge the gap and increase competitive integrity between the input devices. Perhaps maybe mnk needs some mechanics to increase fairness as well. I myself would not know the values of course.
What we cant do is lower aim assist but leave all the other settings as they are. The lower half of players would fall off the game feeling even more frustrated. We have to keep it real with ourselves. The mlg playlist was never the most popualted playlist. There’s much more to halo than hyper competitive players grinding a playlist, so we cant just forget about everything else.
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So just throw out all the good M/K players because SuperKittyLeia wants the game to be catered around the social players while 343 advertises for HCS tournaments and selling competitive team skins in the store while advertising cross-play. Cool, thanks. Great points there.
And I didn’t mean to call you a “man” I just typed that out as a filler word to end a sentence. Sorry.
Um, look. I have my opinion. You don’t have to agree with it. You don’t have to be condescending. I’ve not belittled your opinion. I’m never said pro-players don’t matter either. I just don’t think the game should be catered around them. I think it should be catered around the average player. I’ve never disrespected you for disagreeing with that. Let’s just call this a day shall we. Let’s respect each other as people who disagree. Is that fair? I’m just one person online anyways. Not like the game is gonna change because of what I believe.
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I can agree with this i have found playing mainly pc you can tell when they are on knm as the gameturns into one team runs overto then.
Becomes a really boring match
I am painfully direct and more so in text form. I make no apologies for it.
I will ask you one question.
Using your math to describe the difference between a pro vs average players and how that could be different between inputs. For this question, we are going to assume the difference between a pro and averages Controller player is larger than the KBM difference.
Let’s pretend you are the best of the best on KBM. You are the God of Halo! You’re every move is perfect! No matter how perfect you play, you can never break the top 100 because Controller player advantage makes it impossible to defeat them and move up. Stuck at rank 101 solely because of your input type.
Do you think it is fair to screw over the dedicated player that has put in the work to be the best and leave it unbalanced so “average” Controller players can compete above their skill?
Put yourself in their shoes and remember this is not social gaming, this is sweaty ranked competitive play to try and be the best.
Is it fair?