dude you make this more complicated than it needs to be. When the game’s own controller pros say mnk will never ever be competitive unless aim assist gets nerfed why are we talking all that bs?
343’s own data implied a 50/50 split between the general consensus of who has the advantage.
It’s much easier to aim with a controller but aiming with Mice are “supposed” to be miles more accurate by default.
I honestly didn’t expect my opinions on Controller vs Mouse to change so dramatically over the course of a few months, but it did. MnK just needs it’s bullet magnetism or aim assist to be buffed a bit. Then it should be good to go.
Dude you dont need much of a brain to see that the entire esports scene of halo doesnt want to use mnk because its not viable. Like i dont understand how people dont realize this is a FACT.
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Well, yeah. I understand that. It was pretty telling to see nothing but controllers on the scene.
It’s easier to use.
yet delusional people think crossplay is fair and balanced in halo mcc and halo infinite. Lmao these are the people that hold back halo from gaining significant PC audience. Apex thrives on both mnk and controller know why? Coz aim assist isnt overtuned to the point where its mnk vs bot.
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And because Apex probably fixed its problems at launch or somwhere down the road.
Infinite isn’t even a year old and we’re still playing catch up.
They didn’t even get the deadzones right on controller. You know why Apex probably feels better? Because they have so many settings for aiming and did it right.
Plus, they probably had an idea where they were gonna go.
I’m an engineer and I also have experience running experiments. You have to be able to justify your experiment before you are able to perform it, what does the funding agency think, etc. I have explained why such an experiment is not necessary as it would lead to the same conclusion.
There are many variables in the world and you have to be able to determine which ones have and don’t have an impact. For example most MKB players are playing on PC with fast internet with monitors with lower response times than TVs. Normally that gives a large advantage which should be balanced by aim assist but the pendulum has swung is the other direction.
Accuracy is by far the most important part of Halo or any fps followed by map knowledge and positioning. You can control all the key spots on a map but if you can’t shoot you will be constantly respawning.
The real world data from pro players who are experts on both MKB and controller shows that there are 0 players in the HCS on MKB. Many of these pro players have explicitly stated that aim assist is unbalanced. Given that ghost patches have been applied to MKB magnetism values should tell you that the devs know that this is a problem as they have the data to be able to perform proper tests.
Mouse keywoard + aim assist > controller + aim assist > mouse keywoard
THE TRUTH IN ALL FPS GAMES.
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Dude I’m a trained scientist so my whole process regards needing to be accurate and unbiased with testing. The original post I replied to was heavily skewed. Whether you agree with the solution or not is irrelevant if you want reliable data.
People are using pro-MNK selection numbers as an assumption. They’re not accounting for unconscious bias, the fact that these guys could be brain dead morons who basically agree with each other regardless, and they’re not taking into account that maybe controller is easier to get used to over KNM and therefore the logical choice if both were exactly balanced. In short - they’ve made a hypothesis and have not effectively tested it. Therefore it is a hypothesis and nothing more, regardless of whether or not I actually agree with them
Okay you’re making this much more complicated then it needs to be.
Why does aim assist exist in the first place? It’s because the analog joysticks on controllers make fine movements hard to control which makes raw aiming very difficult. Without aim assist playing FPS games on controller would be very unenjoyable. It’s quite clear that MKB beat controllers without aim assist in FPS games (just look at Counterstrike). This is very obvious to anyone who has played both and there is peer reviewed research you can look at if you don’t believe me.
Aim assist is a system to help improve the aim experience for controller users, there are several parameters involved including strength, aim cone, time falloff, etc. If these values are tuned too well then the game becomes a lot easier on controller (not sure why you need an experiment to prove this statement). The ideal system would balance these values so that the average controller player and the average MKB player are near, maybe not 50/50 but a 60/40 balance would do.
I also come from a scientific field and I appreciate the rigor that you are trying to bring to this discussion but I feel like you are targeting the wrong issue. A large portion of users and real world data tells you that the game is unbalanced against MKB it’s not fair to ignore that and hide behind “experimental correctness”. Furthermore why are all the pro players playing on controller? These guys have significant experience with both inputs so this removes the question/variable of controller being easier to get used to. Many pro players and streamers have come out and said that MKB is unbalanced. You should also be able to draw conclusions from the HCS data which has the least amount of variables, eg. since they are all playing on similar hardware, wired LAN networks, fresh controllers, etc.
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Yep.
That’s why people use XIM to cheat. I would argue that the difference controller + aim assist vs mouse and keyboard can be made close enough for casual play.
Edit: MKB in Infinite actually has slight crosshair magnetism. twitter.com/AnchorNine/status/1532490233090039808
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Yup its scaled down to 21% of controller I believe.
You have to remember that even if the difference between MNK and Pad was 1% you would still have pro players using the Pad over MNK. It is impossible to effectively balance the two, or at least, not worth the effort.
The other issue is that this is a game. Pro players are concerned about winning money and the next sponsorship. I’m sure they have fun too, but games were not designed for pro level play. They are designed to fit a wider population of players, with multiple skill levels, and to ensure they have fun. Downtuning aim assist would make the game harder and (presuming Pad is the majority input choice) this would be a negative change to a significant volume of the population.
I think experimentation and cold hard figures are the only way to effectively solve the issue for the majority of people. I personally feel maybe MNK could do with a tweak, but I see the level of skill my wife and friends play with on this game and know all too well that a nerf to aim assist would destroy their ability to aim marginally above a potato skill level. For me, or even pro players, the nerf would not make much difference.
This is the main problem - if you are considering pro level players as the ultimate in fair matchmaking, you’re eliminating low level players, casuals, children or friends who play just for enjoyment. We know that at the upper end of the skill ceiling MNK should reign supreme, but we don’t know anything about how mid-level MNK players perform in comparison to mid-level pad users. Making changes to controller and bringing aim assist down may well improve the KNM experience at high level play; but we simply don’t know how these changes affect players through the spectrum of skill levels on both inputs.
So we can make assumptions about getting the disparity between the two more closely to 40:60 as you suggested, but without figures we have no data as to where it currently stands or if this is already the level of disparity we’re lying at. We also have no idea what percentage of people are plying on controller over MNK just because that is what they prefer - and my worry would be that to go ahead and change these stats based on what <1% of the population say (because they a voice and a platform) this could negatively impact the game for a far larger portion of players whom don’t operate at that level.
You could say to this “well fair is fair”, but if that’s the case then controller aim assist should be entirely removed and 343i can watch the player base plummet to nothing,
I would propose that if they’re going to make any nerfs to controller aim assist, they should link it to rank. Let’s say platinum 3 takes a nerf, diamond 3 takes a nerf, and onyx takes a nerf every 300CSR until it “matches” with high level MNK play, for this though - they’d need to implement much wider testing because I have picked these ranks out of the sky.
Edit:
I’m enjoying the discussion, thankyou for keeping it respectful
But that’s exactly it.
Making the games objective meta to play in a way which objectively is less based in skill ( because the game is helping you aim) directly takes away from the skill curve and cap if the game.
People should be able to play keyboard if they want, and not get penalized for it.
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Yeah I literally switched to controller after I saw the data from youtube influencers. It is ridiculous the amount of aim assist it has. Honestly, just give KBM players a tiny bit of aim assist. Like a very tiny bit just to help. I would be aiming at people’s heads and somehow the bullets will just barely graze them. 
I don’t like the idea of « if we nerf a little bit AA casual players will leave the game ».
I don’t think people came to Halo because they thought “wow this is an assisted game it’s so fun to play”. They play Halo because they like its universe, that’s all.
If you make a more balanced aim-system everybody will learn how to play with.
Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not talking about making Halo a CStrike game for controllers.
We’re talking about making it more fair for both inputs.
And that’s the difficulty: where should devs put the cursor of AA to make it fair for MNK et playable for controllers ?
the first quesiton i think you most think about it first before tell it what is a good fair setting for both inputs?
since there is no fair settings for both the inputs.
both inputs have there own weak points and strong points so the option to make then fair is something nobody can do at all since there is no fair settings at all.
the KBM has there own strong points in a shooter game and also there have the weak points also.
same with controler that has there own strong points and also there weak points.
for example: Aim assist for controlers are needed to make it more belance against the mouse since you can move the mouse so fast you wane but the controler sticks not so there you have a strong point and weak point.
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That sums it up right. Lot of these people are delusional. I don’t even like the way mnk feels in this game
I belive that any running should be made considering the average players and not pro players.
This it’s more than balancing input methods it’s about casual population that is important and what platform they are on.
Balancing if needed to make KBM competitive should be restricted to buffs and not nerfing controller.
Honestly what pro players say and how they influence others it’s very biased and subjective to emotional response. If I wanted to become good and play at a profesional level balancing of input method is both impractical and unneeded. I want to play pro from PC then be sure I have invested in chair, monitor, expensive mechanical keyboard and mouse. I am no longer a casual player on PC but some one wanting to play at pro level. If I suspect controller (in this game specifically as some say) is superior I will go buy I controller so I can have all the advantages after all I play to win I want to be a pro. If the game is biased toward KBM (as other game titles are like people say) then I will invest in best KBM setup possible to have the advantage. Pro players or pro wannabe players change their setups to gain advantage. This is why measuring top pro players is a fallacy. They migrated to controllers to have advantage because the popular opinion is that controller is best for competitive play.
Now when it comes to the larger more important population of casual the discussion is totally different. If a casual KBM player feels disadvantaged it can simply change to controller. It still uses the same PC setup like chair monitor gaming PC. It just changes the input because it believes controller has advantage. It’s an easier change that is not so upsetting.
Console population of average players, the casual ones, the majority of the population does not have the luxury to change the input method. If I bought a console I bought it because I am a casual gamer who wants to play relaxed from the couch and not sit in a chair at a desk in front of a KBM. Casual players play on the console on TVs and not from desks in chair. They can’t easily change the input method.
So if balancing is a problem (in the casual population not pro one that will change input method to be competitive in a second) the balancing should be done by buffing KBM if possible(and KBM agrees to give up raw input) not nerfong the Pad.
In cross-platform scenarios is easier for players to change to controllers if they feel disadvantage and enjoy the experience than it is for console players to change to KBM.
Nerfing the controller if the average players are not competitive will only displease the console players so I belive that any balancing should be done by buffing KBM not nerfi g controllers
The perfect solution probably doesn’t exist. However, it must not say we don’t have to hope for a try.
Fair doesn’t mean equal. It’s impossible. There will always be advantages to play with a mouse or with a pad and that’s a good point.
Infinite is the first game developped for both communities. We all saw that 343 released a very very unpolished Beta game.
That means there is a lot of work to do to find a balance. And they didn’t even try for the moment (´cause there are so much problems….).
We can’t say there is no solution until they take a serious look at the data. I’m sure they can slightly adjust some parameters (bullet curve, softlock crosshair, reticle tolerance…) of mouse or pad and find a empirical better setup.