Secondary Weapons in Halo

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

So, lately I’ve been seeing several comments saying that “secondary weapons” are “a terrible idea for an Arena sandbox” like Halo and that there’s no point or validation in having sidearms. I respectfully disagree.

Secondary weapons (sidearms) are important in that they allow the player a weapon that can combat an enemy at ranges that their primary doesn’t do well in, without being so effective that they can outmatch an enemy who has the better primary for that situation. Example: If I have an AR and Magnum and come across a player with a BR and SMG, the Magnum is better suited for mid-ranged combat than the AR but not the BR. Alternatively, the SMG is better at close-range than the BR, but not the AR.

Without the inclusion of sidearms at-spawn (which some say should happen), the above engagement between an AR-user and a BR-user would be overly simplistic and uninteresting. Allowing players to spawn with two primaries (AR and BR, for instance) would make them prepared for most engagements, close- or mid-ranged, and never worry much about what range the encounter occurs unless a map pick-up is involved (due to having the best primary for both sides of the spectrum).

Another interesting thought that I’ve seen in such posts is that the Magnum is nothing more than an inferior BR/DMR clone, but that secondaries like the Plasma Pistol and Boltshot/Mauler are more acceptable because they are conceptually unique… Couldn’t the Plasma Pistol be considered an “inferior” version of the Grenade Launcher from Reach? Aren’t the Boltshot and Mauler “inferior” versions of a Shotgun?

Then, we have quotes like these: “We definitely shouldn’t be using their inferior versions if we are only using them to create superficial “variety” for mechanics like loadouts(or dual wielding) that offer very few benefits.”. In response to this mindset, I don’t feel that “variety” is what makes secondaries needed or useful. Its the fact that, without sidearms, players are penalized for not having the right primary for the situation and hardly even have a fighting chance at all in those instances.

What do you think about this debate?

2

> So, lately I’ve been seeing several comments saying that “secondary weapons” are “a terrible idea for an Arena sandbox” like Halo and that there’s no point or validation in having sidearms. I respectfully disagree.
>
> Secondary weapons (sidearms) are important in that they allow the player a weapon that can combat an enemy at ranges that their primary doesn’t do well in, without being so effective that they can outmatch an enemy who has the better primary for that situation. Example: If I have an AR and Magnum and come across a player with a BR and SMG, the Magnum is better suited for mid-ranged combat than the AR but not the BR. Alternatively, the SMG is better at close-range than the BR, but not the AR.
>
> Without the inclusion of sidearms at-spawn (which some say should happen), the above engagement between an AR-user and a BR-user would be overly simplistic and uninteresting. Allowing players to spawn with two primaries (AR and BR, for instance) would make them prepared for most engagements, close- or mid-ranged, and never worry much about what range the encounter occurs unless a map pick-up is involved (due to having the best primary for both sides of the spectrum).
>
> Another interesting thought that I’ve seen in such posts is that the Magnum is nothing more than an inferior BR/DMR clone, but that secondaries like the Plasma Pistol and Boltshot/Mauler are more acceptable because they are conceptually unique… Couldn’t the Plasma Pistol be considered an “inferior” version of the Grenade Launcher from Reach? Aren’t the Boltshot and Mauler “inferior” versions of a Shotgun?
>
> Then, we have quotes like these: “We definitely shouldn’t be using their inferior versions if we are only using them to create superficial “variety” for mechanics like loadouts(or dual wielding) that offer very few benefits.”. In response to this mindset, I don’t feel that “variety” is what makes secondaries needed or useful. Its the fact that, without sidearms, players are penalized for not having the right primary for the situation and hardly even have a fighting chance at all in those instances.
>
> What do you think about this debate?

I accidentally clicked the top choice, I meant the second one. I am all for a more Diverse secondary pool. and I would be willing to make those weapons I made up their respective public opinions (AKA Thorn Rifle map pick-up, Molten Rifle loadout) I would like to have a side arm choice with weaker automatics. but consider this, in the same sense we have demi-power weapons on map in the DMR/LR and hypothetical TR, why not have similar things for the secondaries? ODST smgs that are even better cause the can tackle BR’s at Medium ranges as-well. soup up the damage on the plasma repeater and make it more accurate, ame Idea, the Socom auto mag? and so on. the Needler would be our aldready existing needle pistol upgrade!

3

I see your AR/Magnum vs BR/SMG scenario and feel what’s the point.

Magnum is still going to be inferior to the BR. Against equally skilled players the only thing that changes is that the player who switches to his Magnum takes the BR player down to no shields instead of half or quarter shields. I do agree though with your statement that making sidearms that are inferior power weapons is pointless and shouldn’t be done. Not to mention that with the current, and likely future loadout settings, it would be a trivial matter to just switch to a precision weapon.

Instead I see Secondaries serving the role as backup or emergency weapons.

Your AR is empty, his shields are down and rather than reload, you switch to your Magnum since it’s faster, and try to go for the headshot. You’re sniping and get surprised at close range and manage to get a bodyshot off before you’re outmaneuvered so you switch to your SMG and spray him down rather than risk shooting at air with the sniper.

In other shooters though, I’ve got my CoD/modern shooter flamesuit on, the benefits that secondaries bring are their maneuverability (faster aiming speed) and the fact that they don’t slow the player down as much as another full sized weapon.

I also think we further expand upon what 343 did with the Flagnum. Only rather than being restricted to the Flagnum with it’s preset properties when carrying the Flag you whip out your secondary when carrying any objective.

Another idea that I’ve had that’s been shot down before is to bring back dual wielding by allowing players to dual wield secondaries.

And for the record: I don’t want the Boltshot coming back in it’s current incarnation. Boltshot was made to be the Noob Tube weapon. Functionally wise it’s redundant as well to the Shotgun. Instead I want something akin to an actual magnum. Big, slow, heavy hitting revolver type weapon.

I’m also particular to bringing back the H2 Needler, maybe a PR “redesign,” anything really to function as what is known as a machine pistol, as a replacement for the PP and moving said PP back to map pickup.

4

> I see your AR/Magnum vs BR/SMG scenario and feel what’s the point.
>
> Magnum is still going to be inferior to the BR. Against equally skilled players the only thing that changes is that the player who switches to his Magnum takes the BR player down to no shields instead of half or quarter shields. I do agree though with your statement that making sidearms that are inferior power weapons is pointless and shouldn’t be done. Not to mention that with the current, and likely future loadout settings, it would be a trivial matter to just switch to a precision weapon.
>
> Instead I see Secondaries serving the role as backup or emergency weapons.
>
> Your AR is empty, his shields are down and rather than reload, you switch to your Magnum since it’s faster, and try to go for the headshot. You’re sniping and get surprised at close range and manage to get a bodyshot off before you’re outmaneuvered so you switch to your SMG and spray him down rather than risk shooting at air with the sniper.
>
> In other shooters though, I’ve got my CoD/modern shooter flamesuit on, the benefits that secondaries bring are their maneuverability (faster aiming speed) and the fact that they don’t slow the player down as much as another full sized weapon.
>
> I also think we further expand upon what 343 did with the Flagnum. Only rather than being restricted to the Flagnum with it’s preset properties when carrying the Flag you whip out your secondary when carrying any objective.
>
> Another idea that I’ve had that’s been shot down before is to bring back dual wielding by allowing players to dual wield secondaries.
>
> <mark>And for the record: I don’t want the Boltshot coming back in it’s current incarnation. Boltshot was made to be the Noob Tube weapon. Functionally wise it’s redundant as well to the Shotgun. Instead I want something akin to an actual magnum. Big, slow, heavy hitting revolver type weapon.</mark>

When released, it was better than the shotgun in secondary fire mode, it had more range

5

> When released, it was better than the shotgun in secondary fire mode, it had more range

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Yes it had better range than the Shotgun but it came with a slew of cons to go with that, that in my mind brought the weapon down and made it inferior as a whole.

Regardless, it’s neutered now and I’m advocating the secondary fire mode’s complete removal and a functional redesign of the primary fire mode weapon so that it’s not a gimped Magnum reskin.

6

> > When released, it was better than the shotgun in secondary fire mode, it had more range
>
> We’ll have to agree to disagree.
>
> Yes it had better range than the Shotgun but it came with a slew of cons to go with that, that in my mind brought the weapon down and made it inferior as a whole.
>
> Regardless, it’s neutered now and I’m advocating the secondary fire mode’s complete removal and a functional redesign of the primary fire mode weapon so that it’s not a gimped Magnum reskin.

you get a melee first with this thing, the rate you can spam a headshot shot is ridiculous

7

> you get a melee first with this thing, the rate you can spam a headshot shot is ridiculous

And likely end up trading kills? I don’t see that being a viable tactic and quite honestly have never seen that happen, or happens so rarely I don’t register it, in my nearly ~1k games.

Regardless, if that’s the only way, or the only effective way, it can get a kill then it should be redesigned anyways as that makes the weapon extremely one dimensional and boring.

8

I do think they are fairly pointless if they are treated like week side-arm clean up weapons. Which is what I consider the Magnum to be at the moment what with it having bloom, a tiny clip size and only a 0.03 second kill time advantage over the BR when spammed. I think they need to be treated like special weapons. Niche combat weapons. Most importantly they need to be on an equivalent tier to utility weapons and have niche combat roles where they are superior.

But if the magnum was changed to a 5 shot kill with a ROF equal to the CE Pistol giving it a 1.2 second kill time. It would have a niche.

If we are to have loadouts we probably need to get a bit more creative with the combat roles weapons can allow. We have established mid range pistol weapons are fine, as are close range automatics but what else is acceptable? I mean the Plasma pistol does supply a fairly interesting niche combat role. And in a 4v4 setting it seems fairly well balanced since it’s shield stripping ability is fairly balanced with that of frag grenades but it is clearly OP in BTB vehicle combat, making it unnecessary to use power weapons to combat vehicles. Maybe it can be balanced. As for the boltshot, the close range automatics are much more balanced close range niche secondaries that have a good relationship with shotgun and melee power weapons so it isn’t really needed nor is it welcome.

I would however like to see some new creative combat roles explored if possible as long as it doesn’t break the balance of the game.

9

I agree with this mentality towards load outs completely.

I’m an AR user and I find myself picking the Magnum as my side arm for the reasons Maine has stated constantly.

Something that should be considered when talking about secondaries is that a dangerous thing about load outs is the possibility of creating Paper, Scissors, Rock game play.

If we were to only have a choice over primary weapons than this is a lot more likely to happen because when I spawn with a certain weapon that weapon has a recommended range and I’m stuck with that range and I’m at a disadvantage if I find myself outside or inside that range.

But having a Magnum as a side arm means I’m not locked down to close quarters only when using an AR. I have a side arm that gives me a chance in other areas.

You can say that a Magnum has no chance against a BR at Medium or long range but it works a hell of a lot better than an AR. Killing an opponent outside of the ARs recommended range is easier with a Magnum so that’s why I choose it, the BR/CC has an advantage at medium range but the Magnum gives me a chance. It really does help compensate for my primary weapon not having the best range.

Now it’s a real shame that the closest thing that Medium and Long range rifles have to help compensate for close quarters is the Bolt shot. A small automatic like the SMG or PR would work way better.

The chance the Magnum gives me at longer ranges does a lot to stop Paper, Scissors, Rock game play.

Yeah I’ll admit it, the Magnum is only a DMR with less range, less power, less ammo and a higher ROF. That’s why I choose it and it works. I know it’s heresy to not only support the existence of one reskin weapon but ask for more but if the Magnum is a mini DMR and works so well than an SMG that’s a mini AR, a PR that’s a mini SR and NP that’s a mini NR sounds really good to me.

The Automatic+Magnum system works so well and I think load outs could be spectacular if these kind of combos were spread to the rest of load outs.

10

I have the same opinion about that topic like you GHOST.

The “niche” of the secondaries is that they even out the weakpoints of the primaries, plus, like Methew has said, they serve the fair role of backup and emergency weapons as well.

I just don’t know where you see similarities between the Plasma Pistol and the Grenade Launcher.

11

> I just don’t know where you see similarities between the Plasma Pistol and the Grenade Launcher.

The EMP effect I would imagine.

12

> > I just don’t know where you see similarities between the Plasma Pistol and the Grenade Launcher.
>
> The EMP effect I would imagine.

Ok, that’s true, the EMP effect is a similarity.
Nonetheless, I think considering the PP as an inferior version of the Grenade Launcher seems a little farfechted, since the EMP has been the PP’s “primary fire and use” while it has only been more or less the Grenade Launchers “secondary or bonus fire/use”.
However, I do not want to nit-pick any further, since it is actually not really relevant. I was just wondering.

13

I think we need secondaries. We just need more good ones like the magnum but for different situations.

The PP is really only good for vehicle combat but i don’t want to spawn with one.

The BS compliments the DMR or LR for close range combat but i’d rather a spiker or SMG be the secondary for that role.

14

> > > I just don’t know where you see similarities between the Plasma Pistol and the Grenade Launcher.
> >
> > The EMP effect I would imagine.
>
> Ok, that’s true, the EMP effect is a similarity.
> Nonetheless, I think considering the PP as an inferior version of the Grenade Launcher seems a little farfechted, since the EMP has been the PP’s “primary fire and use” while it has only been more or less the Grenade Launchers “secondary or bonus fire/use”.
> However, I do not want to nit-pick any further, since it is actually not really relevant. I was just wondering.

To be clear, the PP and GL are quite similar. They both have a primary firing mode and a “secondary” function that utilizes an EMP by holding down the trigger (the notion of which function is secondary depends on the user; I personally used the GL to greater effect with it’s EMP). I know you said it wasn’t relevant, but I felt the need to detail that comparison.

15

The concept of a sidearm in gameplay terms has only really existed in Halo 4. Though you can argue that Halo 2/3 had sidearms as well since dual wielding also created a category of half weapons.

In other games your “secondary” was whatever you decided to pick up. It wasn’t set in stone that a certain set of weapons were for “backup”. Your scenario only covers players who are spawning in. If people are choosing to spawn with a niche weapon like the AR over a Utility weapon like the BR I have little sympathy if they run into a BR user at range. There was a reason people clamored for precision starts after H2/H3/Reach gave us SMG/AR/AR(even with the magnum) starts. People didn’t like spawning with a weapon that didn’t allow them to properly defend themselves from most threats.

Now that weapon shouldn’t be the best at any range, but it should able to fight back at most ranges(hence utility). A well designed utility weapon let’s you protect yourself at spawn, minimizing the issue of being penalized for “not having the right weapon”. If range issues are really such a concern than it is of course possible to spawn with a weapon that is not solely designed for backup like the AR(I much preferred DMR/AR starts in Reach over DMR/Magnum).

Whether a weapon is a “Primary” or a “Secondary” should be based on the situation and not defined on a design level.

The “secondary” issue is separate issue from the “functional clone” issue. The Magnum/PP/BS/Mauler example was used for both those purposes. As far as “secondaries” go it was meant to demonstrate that all these “sidearms”(sometimes with the magnum) have compelling reasons to pick them up over the “primaries” like the BR or AR. They may very well be used by some players as backup but they have the potential to be quite effective within their own niche.

I don’t want to see a weapon like the magnum be used only for “backup” when there are some versions of it that are solid weapons in their own right. You have the CE version(duh), the Reach TU version(No bloom, 4 shot bliss), and my personal favorite the ODST Automag. It had “sidearm” damage but a great rate of fire and an absurd 4x scope that completely outperformed the utility Carbine at range. It found its own place without overstepping the “rifles”(unlike the CE pistol) or being useful only for backup(like the H4 pistol).

TL;DR A well designed utility weapon(or combination of spawning weapons) negates the need for a class of backup only secondaries.

16

Removing secondary from the equation - for whatever reason - is overthinking the game dynamics.

Having a close quarters weapon that you can switch to is just Halo 101. There are countless times where I run out of ammo in my primary and need to make a quick switch to keep fighting.

Query: Would the community go bonkers if the loadouts consisted of Primary/Secondary/Sidearm? 3 options might be too much to handle, and I’m not convinced of it’s value. In this setup, the sidearm would be a fallback option, and the secondary could be restricted to map pickups only.

17

>Arena Sandbox.
>Penalizing players for their choice of spawning weapon.

Or, we could spawn everyone with a versatile set of weapons, so the only thing holding them back is their skill and not what weapon they happened to have equipped.

I thought we were discussing an arena sandbox, not a class based one. Because if you really want to punish someone for how they chose to spawn, a class based shooter would be much better designed than a loadout shooter.

> I’m an AR user and I find myself picking the Magnum as my side arm for the reasons Maine has stated constantly.

Or you could use Firepower, pick a Battle Rifle, and not get destroyed at medium range by anyone competent at the game.

> If range issues are really such a concern than it is of course possible to spawn with a weapon that is not solely designed for backup

And they wouldn’t be. Halo CE did it, the only issue being the Magnum was overpowered.

> Having a close quarters weapon that you can switch to is just Halo 101.

That second weapon doesn’t have to be completely useless is our point. You could spawn someone with both an effective medium range, AND effective close range weapon, without harming sandbox balance.

18

Option 2. Replace PP and BS with the SMG and the Plasma Rifle, and maybe a new pistol/secondary type (Forerunner?). Imagine something similar to the Sentinel Beam (but weaker). I don’t think secondaries should be scrapped completely just because of two bad eggs. Without secondaries, I see no point in Custom Loadouts at all.

19

> The concept of a sidearm in gameplay terms has only really existed in Halo 4. Though you can argue that Halo 2/3 had sidearms as well since dual wielding also created a category of half weapons.

What about Halo Reach? How does its Magnum fit into combat in your eyes? Also, considering DW weapons in H2/H3 sidearms (like the Magnum was in both), Halo CE was the only FPS Halo to not have “secondary” weapons. It did have the most scarce arsenal, of course, and the CE Magnum was allegedly buffed at the last second into what we know it as today. I will say that I find the H4 Magnum to be a bit underwhelming since the “Turbo” update and doesn’t perform its job as well as it could (bloom seems too excessive and damage is lacking IMO), but that could be changed… as the Magnum is in virtually every reiteration.

> Whether a weapon is a “Primary” or a “Secondary” should be based on the situation and not defined on a design level.

I do agree with this point to an extent, but its not that simple. The situation gives the player incentive to use one or the other of his/her two weapons. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the weapon best suited for that particular situation is the one a player uses most (“primary” weapon). With that logic, the weapon being ‘holstered’ is considered the “secondary” simply because it isn’t best for that situation. Does that mean that a Sniper Rifle becomes a secondary in close-quarters engagements?

> The “secondary” issue is separate issue from the “functional clone” issue. The Magnum/PP/BS/Mauler example was used for both those purposes. As far as “secondaries” go it was meant to demonstrate that all these “sidearms”(sometimes with the magnum) have compelling reasons to pick them up over the “primaries” like the BR or AR. They may very well be used by some players as backup but they have the potential to be quite effective within their own niche.

They may be separate issues, but they are relevant to one another. How do you make a weapon: not a backup, not similar to a “primary”, and not too gimmicked into a role that doesn’t work well at’spawn (like the PP/BS)?

> I don’t want to see a weapon like the magnum be used only for “backup” when there are some versions of it that are solid weapons in their own right. You have the CE version(duh), the Reach TU version(No bloom, 4 shot bliss), and my personal favorite the ODST Automag. It had “sidearm” damage but a great rate of fire and an absurd 4x scope that completely outperformed the utility Carbine at range. It found its own place without overstepping the “rifles”(unlike the CE pistol) or being useful only for backup(like the H4 pistol).

The CE iteration was admittedly OP (that can be seen with Reach’s “Anniversary” DMR and Magnum; the Magnum mops the floor with the DMR). The TU Reach Magnum could be considered an inferior clone of the BR, couldn’t it? (it worked a bit better in Reach due to the BR’s absence, I suppose). I do find that the M6C/SOCOM from ODST was a great weapon in its own right, indeed being more useful in some situations than the Carbine, but not intruding upon its niche (due to low damage-per-shot). I would certainly love to see that iteration return in Halo 5, but that’s merely one weapon… Do you think a Suppressed SMG could make a suitable sidearm as well?

> TL;DR A well designed utility weapon(or combination of spawning weapons) negates the need for a class of backup only secondaries.

I do agree with this. I don’t want the secondaries/sidearms to be limited to “backup” status, but I also don’t want such weapons to be given too restrictive or annoying/harmful to gameplay as the PP and BS are in Halo 4. The whole point of choosing a sidearm (as I see it, anyways) is to allow players to choose something that compliments their primary to help make up for the primary’s shortcomings.

20

> I’m an AR user and I find myself picking the Magnum as my side arm for the reasons Maine has stated constantly.

> Or you could use Firepower, pick a Battle Rifle, and not get destroyed at medium range by anyone competent at the game.

By picking Fire power and using the advantage that the BR gives me I give up the advantage that Dexterity, Recharge or another Armor mod could give me.

I prefer these advantages over the advantage that the extra Fire power that a better precision weapon will give me.

Besides if I’m using a BR as a secondary and fighting someone with a BR as their primary than that person could still have the advantage because they could be using an Armor mod that gives them an advantage while I can’t have that Armor mod because the slots been taken up by Fire power.

It’s a good thing I have the Magnum and the option to make it better with an Armor mod or you’ll be right and I would get destroyed by BRs in almost every encounter outside the ARs recommended range.

I think people really need to know how much the Magnum helps. In a fair fight yes I’m completely outclassed by another precision weapon like the BR but that’s hardly ever the case. Positioning, grenades, team shooting and other such factors are what determine a fight in a lot of cases. Making sure that when I fight someone I have those advantages is the only way I can beat a better precision weapon with a Magnum. If a BR user were to fight me with those advantages or even on even grounds than I’m toast.

The thing is yes I’m outclassed at longer ranges but the Magnum allows me to at least contend in those ranges when using the AR would be out of the question. If I can put this contending range together with a grenade or a height advantage than I can win. Yes a BR can do the same thing but better but to use the BR I’ll either have to give up my AR or Armor mod slot which is an option but not the option I prefer.

It’s a difficult thing to explain but I assure everyone reading this that this is a great system and it’s where I see the potential of load outs.