Scorpoins vs Grizzlies

Has anyone noticed how scorpions seem to do much more damage than grizzlies? I was playing a couple of games and noticed that my 3 grizzlies would get totaled by 3 scorpions. And even when I had 3 fully upgraded spartan grizzlies, I still get demolished by 3 spartan scorpions. Seems to me that the canister ability causes almost 2x the damage with scorpions than grizzlies. All 3 of his tanks could canister 1 of my grizzlies and kill it while 3 grizzlies couldn’t canister kill a scorpion. At that point 3 scorpions > 2 grizzlies. Has anyone else noticed this? Is this most likely because grizzlies were too OP and they scaled them down but left scorpions were they were?

Yes power turret tanks as long as you micro and use the canister will beat grizzlies.

> Yes power turret tanks as long as you micro and use the canister will beat grizzlies.

Which is stupid because it nullifies Forge’s super units. The only reason to play Forge now would be to have a greater early economy. It would be better to use tanks as Cutter or Andres because their powers are much more usefull than a carpet bomb (not to mention being able to trip other tanks and destroy cobras with ODTS’s).

> > Yes power turret tanks as long as you micro and use the canister will beat grizzlies.
>
> Which is stupid because it nullifies Forge’s super units. The only reason to play Forge now would be to have a greater early economy. It would be better to use tanks as Cutter or Andres because their powers are much more usefull than a carpet bomb (not to mention being able to trip other tanks and destroy cobras with ODTS’s).

Actually, all around, Grizzlies function a lot better than Scorpions. The thing about the Grizzly canister shell is that it’s a lot more spread out, so it does damage on a wider radius to combat infantry, so instead of hitting 1 ODST unit, it hits atleast six with AOE. On top of that, it also have more life than the scorpion, allowing it to be more effective to air units.

but the point really is that Super Units shouldn’t even be a goal, more something to achieve on the side if you have the money.

Perhaps it’s true that “super units” should be a novelty item but considering that the other super units [AFAIK] are pure upgrades it’s embarrassing when a Tank super-unit gets beat by its non-super counterparts.

If I’ve got this right the Grizzly is superior against basic infantry [Marines, Grunts, Jackals] but against vehicles it’s worse and against air it’s only marginally better.

This wouldn’t be bad if you had a choice of what units to produce once you upgraded but if you lack that choice it’s certainly bothersome …

> > > Yes power turret tanks as long as you micro and use the canister will beat grizzlies.
> >
> > Which is stupid because it nullifies Forge’s super units. The only reason to play Forge now would be to have a greater early economy. It would be better to use tanks as Cutter or Andres because their powers are much more usefull than a carpet bomb (not to mention being able to trip other tanks and destroy cobras with ODTS’s).
>
> Actually, all around, Grizzlies function a lot better than Scorpions. The thing about the Grizzly canister shell is that it’s a lot more spread out, so it does damage on a wider radius to combat infantry, so instead of hitting 1 ODST unit, it hits atleast six with AOE. On top of that, it also have more life than the scorpion, allowing it to be more effective to air units.
>
> but the point really is that Super Units shouldn’t even be a goal, more something to achieve on the side if you have the money.

Here’s Mitch’s video on it,

I don’t think it’s just because the canny is more spread out, I think it’s also more inaccurate, so when two players who know how to micro go up against one another, the grizzlies’ get out-micro-ed.

Not that I trust it any, but I went and looked at the Halo Wars Unit Spreadsheet, and comapred the stats between grizzlies and power turret. Once again, this spreadsheet is not perfectly accurate, there are math errors and incorrect information in some areas.

That being said, they life/damage that they present should make it impossible for grizzlies to lose to power turret. So I figured that this wasnt the reason.

Next I moved on to damage type, both units have the same type of damage.

Next was armor, which both of are the same.

So no answers there.

However, as experienced players know, the real damage in these fights comes from the canister shell, which sees a huge difference in damage. I checked the damage type on this, and it is the same for both tanks and grizzlies: explosive.

My only thought is that grizzlies are an anti infantry unit. Once upgraded, their canister shell becomes a different type of damage, a fact that the spreadsheet failed on(i believe it to be wrong).

Thanks for looking at the spreadsheet. I appreciate folks going to effort to get to the core reason as to why certain things happen.

I wonder if this contributed to a stalemate game I had a few weeks ago. At one point it was Grizzlies [mine] vs. Tanks and I was shocked that I lost. I assumed that it was 100% because I was going through a chokepoint into the heart of the enemy’s defenses. Now it seems that there was another factor involved.

Note: I was up 4 bases to 2 so I [incorrectly] throught that it was just mop-up time :slight_smile:

> Not that I trust it any, but I went and looked at the Halo Wars Unit Spreadsheet, and comapred the stats between grizzlies and power turret. Once again, this spreadsheet is not perfectly accurate, there are math errors and incorrect information in some areas.
>
> That being said, they life/damage that they present should make it impossible for grizzlies to lose to power turret. So I figured that this wasnt the reason.
>
> Next I moved on to damage type, both units have the same type of damage.
>
> Next was armor, which both of are the same.
>
> So no answers there.
>
>
> However, as experienced players know, the real damage in these fights comes from the canister shell, which sees a huge difference in damage. I checked the damage type on this, and it is the same for both tanks and grizzlies: explosive.
>
> My only thought is that grizzlies are an anti infantry unit. Once upgraded, their canister shell becomes a different type of damage, a fact that the spreadsheet failed on(i believe it to be wrong).

No, I really do think it’s because the grizzly’s canister shell is more laggy, and just full on misses its target more than the PT canny. Here’s my reasoning: The blast from the Grizzly canny is more spread out to do more aoe damage, because of this, it takes more cpu power to calculate how much damage it will do, this means there is more info to communicate across the internet, which causes the cannister shells to be more laggy.

When I played competitively, I always made PT tanks vs other canny/PT/grizzlies. When the option was open and they would go cobras or hunters or something other than tanks, I would upgrade grizzlies.

PT>grizzlies
grizzlies>everything else

> When I played competitively, I always made PT tanks vs other canny/PT/grizzlies. When the option was open and they would go cobras or hunters or something other than tanks, I would upgrade grizzlies.
>
> PT>grizzlies
> grizzlies>everything else

So 10 PT tanks, if micro’d correctly, can out duel 10 Grizzlies?
Huh. Cool. Thanks guys, I didn’t know this.

The Grizzly’s Canister Shell has been nerfed against heavy armour for balance purposes. This means that with expert micro, you can beat Grizzlies with PT Scorpions.

However, Grizzlies are better than Scorpions against every other unit type, and unless your micro is godly they’ll beat PT tanks anyway. So the upgrade is hardly useless.

you must be doing something wrong if your 3 spartan grizzlies cannot kill someone elses 3 spartan power turret tanks.

perhaps his tanks had more stars than yours?

but either way, as soon as one of your tanks has about half health, and you notice your opponent is focusing his fire on that wounded tank, you then click on him, and have him run away, when he is about half health, and then have your 2 remaining tanks focus fire on his weakest tank, and kill it, throw a heal on your wounded tank once its left the battle, and you should win this quite easily.

you cannot let your units be in a firefight, and then just let them die, you need to micro your units when they are wounded, and pull them back so they can fight another day.

as to your guys arguments about “grizzly vs power turret”, grizzly is much better. if you have grizzlys and you lose to power turrets, then you are doing something wrong.

it is also not just a “grizzly vs power turret”, other factors come into play when its a unsc vs unsc. it doesnt always come down to “who has grizzlies, and who does not”

> you must be doing something wrong if your 3 spartan grizzlies cannot kill someone elses 3 spartan power turret tanks.
>
> perhaps his tanks had more stars than yours?
>
> but either way, as soon as one of your tanks has about half health, and you notice your opponent is focusing his fire on that wounded tank, you then click on him, and have him run away, when he is about half health, and then have your 2 remaining tanks focus fire on his weakest tank, and kill it, throw a heal on your wounded tank once its left the battle, and you should win this quite easily.
>
> you cannot let your units be in a firefight, and then just let them die, you need to micro your units when they are wounded, and pull them back so they can fight another day.
>
>
> as to your guys arguments about “grizzly vs power turret”, grizzly is much better. if you have grizzlys and you lose to power turrets, then you are doing something wrong.
>
>
>
> it is also not just a “grizzly vs power turret”, other factors come into play when its a unsc vs unsc. it doesnt always come down to “who has grizzlies, and who does not”

“If you have grizzlys and you lose to pwoer turrets, the you are doing something wrong”

Go ask anyone competent at this game. PT>Grizzly.

Sure there are always other factors, but thats irrelevant. Were talking grizzly vs. PT, and PT wins, end of story. Grizzly is better over all, but we are talking PT vs Grizzly.

You say to drive away your low tank, heal em, and come back. Well sure, but so will the other guy if hes any good, and if he is doing it with PT while you do it with grizzlies, he will win.

> > you must be doing something wrong if your 3 spartan grizzlies cannot kill someone elses 3 spartan power turret tanks.
> >
> > perhaps his tanks had more stars than yours?
> >
> > but either way, as soon as one of your tanks has about half health, and you notice your opponent is focusing his fire on that wounded tank, you then click on him, and have him run away, when he is about half health, and then have your 2 remaining tanks focus fire on his weakest tank, and kill it, throw a heal on your wounded tank once its left the battle, and you should win this quite easily.
> >
> > you cannot let your units be in a firefight, and then just let them die, you need to micro your units when they are wounded, and pull them back so they can fight another day.
> >
> >
> > as to your guys arguments about “grizzly vs power turret”, grizzly is much better. if you have grizzlys and you lose to power turrets, then you are doing something wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > it is also not just a “grizzly vs power turret”, other factors come into play when its a unsc vs unsc. it doesnt always come down to “who has grizzlies, and who does not”
>
> “If you have grizzlys and you lose to pwoer turrets, the you are doing something wrong”
>
> Go ask anyone competent at this game. PT>Grizzly.
>
> Sure there are always other factors, but thats irrelevant. Were talking grizzly vs. PT, and PT wins, end of story. Grizzly is better over all, but we are talking PT vs Grizzly.
>
> You say to drive away your low tank, heal em, and come back. Well sure, but so will the other guy if hes any good, and if he is doing it with PT while you do it with grizzlies, he will win.

you are right in saying PT > grizzly.

you are wrong in saying grizzly is better over all. they are not better at all except against infantry, but any normal team game will have more than just infantry to fight against…

if you are trying to win, NEVER under any circumstances upgrade to grizzly. PT rules party teams arenas.

the only time i would ever even consider doing it is if you have a 13 star power turret and want the 14th star (only in a turtle) and even then its not worth it because 3 13* pt crush 3 14* grizzly… so basically, NEVER get the upgrade…

> you are right in saying PT > grizzly.
>
> you are wrong in saying grizzly is better over all. they are not better at all except against infantry, but any normal team game will have more than just infantry to fight against…
>
> if you are trying to win, NEVER under any circumstances upgrade to grizzly. PT rules party teams arenas.
>
> the only time i would ever even consider doing it is if you have a 13 star power turret and want the 14th star (only in a turtle) and even then its not worth it because 3 13* pt crush 3 14* grizzly… so basically, NEVER get the upgrade…

Grizzly has more life, and does more damage naturally, as does it’s canister shell. How could it not be better overall?

I agree though, I only build it against Covy, as a UNSC could easily stay at PT and kill you.

> > you are right in saying PT > grizzly.
> >
> > you are wrong in saying grizzly is better over all. they are not better at all except against infantry, but any normal team game will have more than just infantry to fight against…
> >
> > if you are trying to win, NEVER under any circumstances upgrade to grizzly. PT rules party teams arenas.
> >
> > the only time i would ever even consider doing it is if you have a 13 star power turret and want the 14th star (only in a turtle) and even then its not worth it because 3 13* pt crush 3 14* grizzly… so basically, NEVER get the upgrade…
>
> Grizzly has more life, and does more damage naturally, as does it’s canister shell. How could it not be better overall?
>
> I agree though, I only build it against Covy, as a UNSC could easily stay at PT and kill you.

its not better overall because there is never gonna be a case where u only fight infantry… that is its only positive value.

> > > you are right in saying PT > grizzly.
> > >
> > > you are wrong in saying grizzly is better over all. they are not better at all except against infantry, but any normal team game will have more than just infantry to fight against…
> > >
> > > if you are trying to win, NEVER under any circumstances upgrade to grizzly. PT rules party teams arenas.
> > >
> > > the only time i would ever even consider doing it is if you have a 13 star power turret and want the 14th star (only in a turtle) and even then its not worth it because 3 13* pt crush 3 14* grizzly… so basically, NEVER get the upgrade…
> >
> > Grizzly has more life, and does more damage naturally, as does it’s canister shell. How could it not be better overall?
> >
> > I agree though, I only build it against Covy, as a UNSC could easily stay at PT and kill you.
>
> its not better overall because there is never gonna be a case where u only fight infantry… that is its only positive value.

How is that its only posotive value? It has more life, more damage natural/canister. The only thing grizzly is worse against is PT itself.

Agaisnt any other unit, it will do more damage, and will survive longer.

Grizzlies are slightly stronger, but probably not better. I think what you are trying to say is there is never a point to get them, and I 100% agree. With the amount of people that build tanks in this game, and the lack of infantry/other vehicles, PT functions much better.

Is it possible that the Excel stats file is either wrong OR there is an in-game glitch that makes the Grizzlies inferior to PT Tanks??

> Is it possible that the Excel stats file is either wrong OR there is an in-game glitch that makes the Grizzlies inferior to PT Tanks??

I commented on the stats sheet earlier, saying I dont trust it entirely(a few calculations dont work out entirely correct), but it is good to get some info from, as long as it is taken lightly.

I think waht most people (reiver/exlax) have been saying is the best assumption, that the canister shell is simply spread out more. A glitch may be present, but I personally dont think that is the case.