SBMM is good... BUT

Y’all I don’t know. I don’t think Infinite’s SBMM is good. Something’s wrong with the algorithms behind it and… while SBMM is good for all modes, I don’t actually think it needs to be as strict as it is in ranked play.

Because if it were, then why are so many casual concessions made? I mean the radar is abhorrent and makes literally zero crowds happy (and is by far the best radar in the franchise) and the sandbox is weird.

Spawns are random and there isn’t a single player I’ve ever met who ACTUALLY likes that.

Challenges just plain suck, nobody wants or likes them.

It’s just… so weird. The arguments we’ve had on this forum over the last few months have grown from minutia and questions about…

“How should radar be balanced?”
“Is bloom actually good or bad?”
“What weapons should be in what tier?”

To…

“Why can’t I find any matches?”
“Why is the SBMM so tight?”
“The playerbase is declining and game performance overhauls are NOT coming any time soon.”
“Microtransactions are becoming more expensive.”
“This broke again.”
“We are not having fun, as a community.”

This is bad. This entire game is beyond broken and nobody’s playing it. Like, what, maybe 25k absolute tops, daily, play it - across ALL platforms. That’s a really GENEROUS measurement too. At the minimum it’s maybe 10k across all platforms.

That isn’t good. With the SBMM being so insanely tight, even across CASUAL MODES (where it absolutely does belong but way, WAY looser, just like - WAY WAY WAY looser than it currently is, yikes!) - a lot of us can’t find games easily… and it’s not like I’m not stomping in social anyway so what’s the -Yoink!- point??

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Agreed which is why I’ve been saying it should be loosen up a bit for a while now also would react to your post with a perfect medal but i already hit the cap

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Agreed.

It isn’t. SBMM in socials is more relaxed then in ranked. That is also why people are saying the ranked matches are more relaxed, because people are either not that outskilled or they don’t have to carry as much in ranked because of the tighter SBMM.

I’m a bit confused here. It is abhorrent, but the best? Can u explain a bit more what you mean here?

On it’s own random spawns are good, because it reduces the chance for the enemy of blocking certain spawns so they can spawnkill you. However, the implementation seems to be way off. I have been spawned multiple times right in between enemies or have had enemies spawn in my back and directly kill me. So it definitely needs some work indeed.

I like a challlenge system like in MCC, but indeed Infinite’s challenge system is bad. Agreed here.

It isn’t. When during peak hours in Europe (wich is still a populated region) onyx and low gold or high diamond and mid-silver players are getting matched (and not in the same team, so they definitely didn’t team up), then it’s definitely absolutely not strict. Not even speaking of not even balancing teams, wich is the lowest form of SBMM. You hear more and more people complaining about matches not being balanced and having losing streaks because of that. So there is not realy a functioning SBMM to begin with. A lot of matches have people going with KDA’s of 10+, so stomping is not uncommon anymore.

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Agree that SBMM is good. Much better than the alternative of random.

From my perspective it seems to be working ok. Haven’t played as much as I would have liked in the last couple of weeks (working / interstate) - but my matches (touch wood) have felt pretty good.

The declining population of each server though is sure to expose the algorithms.

And it’s the better players that seem to be suffering. There aren’t enough players of similar skill to give them matches were they are the average, let alone the underdog. So all their matches are with lower ranked team-mates. They have to carry. And they are good at it. They just don’t like having to carry hard.

The game will expect them to go 20 and 5. And if they go 18 and 5, or 20 and 7, that’s a fail.

And being naturally competitive they don’t tolerate poor (lower ranked) team mates. And they don’t appreciate that these players can also carry the team by dying less. If the game is expecting me to go 5 and 10 and I manage to go 5 and 8 - that’s a win.

So, it’s frustrating all round.

Once you learn to let go of it… you don’t look back. I think they should just get rid of it. It won’t take long for people to fend for themselves.

I’m not at a level of play where it makes a difference :slight_smile:

That they do. They are getting better. But they still suck.

Can I clarify?

When people are saying social is tighter - are they referring to squads ranking up or an actual tightening in the range put together by MM?

I haven’t noticed much from my end… but I wouldn’t have thought it needed to be tighter than it was.

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Thats because the game thinks a guy should carry all the lower skilled players against other people who are at the higher end

Let me explain it in levels

Say a 5v5match consists of two level 1s two level 2’s and the rest are level 4

The game feels like the teams should go like this 4,1,1,2,2 vs 4,4,4,4,4 instead of something like 4,1,4,2,4 vs 4,2,1,4,4 a lot of the time which is why you hear us saying we feel like we have to sweat and carry people as the teams are usually unbalanced like this if you search for matches solo and why you see more people having more losses than wins

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The range ie narrowing the amount of possible players you go up against

Exactly (combined with the system not accurately measuring players skills), and this is a form of loose SBMM that only looks at team averages.

A strict SBMM would limit the individual skill gaps, so that you don’t create matches that rely on 1 player needing to heavy carry. But that system is not available in Infinite.

Uhm… that first one is not even averaged out, so that may be a bad example (that is an example of having no SBMM), since (on paper*) the game tries to average out skill levels.
It’s rather that the game thinks that 1-2-4-9 (average 4) against 3-4-4-5 (also average 4) is an even match, even though it’s clearly not. That 9 is extremely good and will stomp, however those 1+2 are outskilled and therefore mostly give away kills. 9 therefore has to heavy carry to be able to win and even then is dependend on those 1+2 level players to stay out of battle as much as possible or to stick around him. This because 9 might be way better, but he has 2 players that are way worse that he has to compensate.
That is creating the sweat, but that is a result of a loose SBMM.
A stricter SBMM where is 3-3-4-6 against 3-4-4-5 is way better and creates less sweaty matches, since you can rely on your teammates. That’s why people find the ranked matches less sweaty, because the SBMM there is stricter.

N-no I mean the weapons.

Sure. The rim detection is just a compact expansion of the radar’s function and it HAS a height detector in it. It will tell you if something is on your level or not. USUALLY, you can determine where they are. It’s undeserved info.

No no no, weapon spawns.

Same. it just isn’t necessary.

They mean generally, that people in the same play levels are put together… Allegedly. But who knows if it always works.

The game OFTEN asks me to carry. I can not.

Thing is the strictness that’s being applied isn’t being done well.

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See KC has no reason to lie and even she says the game makes games sweaty in a unfair way by having them carry instead of giving a close but fair match

Ah. That makes much more sense. :slight_smile:

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Oh, the weapons!
Still a clarification that i ask, because there are 2 kinds of them in this game:
do you mean the randomness that one base gets a commando and the other a BR (for example on Streets), or do you mean that on a map spot X has a needler spawn on CTF, but on Slayer it is an sentinal beam?

The first one: i 100% agree that that is a huge problem that gives one team an advantage over the other.
For the 2nd one: it can surely be annoying, but it is not a game breaking problem in my opinion.

I appreciate the vote of confidence! Dog has very little to prove.

I mean I hate both. I want specific weapons on specific maps.

I deleted the game a long time ago. Nerves returned to normal, mood improved. I decided today to go to the forum and read what people write. And nothing appears to have changed. Sbmm doesn’t work, players complain, 343 doesn’t respond, Darwi defends Sbmm and tells players that they don’t understand anything, and sbmm is the best thing that ever happened to humanity :slight_smile:

Yay. I’m famous.

But think of it as more anti-random based MM.

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Just get CA to take over. Max Hoberman made the perfect Trueskill and it remains as the best Halo matchmaking experience ever.

Everyone i know who was around during the Golden Era of FPS games and almost gaming in general 2007-2011 loved those shooters. MW1&2, Halo 3, Bad Co 2, BF3, BO1&2 and Reach are hailed as some of the most fun shooters to ever exist. They had very little to any SBMM. Sure some games you got absolutely rocked and some you did great and some were close. That was fun but the comparatively high SBMM we have now prevents any of that and each game feels similar and makes you sweat even in casual modes.

Its NOT a low player base problem.
Its NOT a high skill player having to carry problem.
It IS a problem for everyone where no matter how good you get the game tries to make everyone have a 1.0 KD as that is equal and means you were matched perfectly to the enemy. That is not fun.

Outside of ranked modes (where SBMM should be prevalent and strict) SBMM only punishes high skill players and helps low skill players. This attempt is meant to retain low skill players because the thought is if they get dominated they won’t want to play. I can tell you that if that is the case you shouldn’t want these players to stick around anyway. They are the ones who quit if they don’t get the weapon they want on the map or in ranked if you get down at all or its on a map they don’t want to play. This all ties into the participation trophy generation that exists and wants to be rewarded or in close competition when they haven’t taken the time or effort to get good.

Casual modes should be mainly about connection to other players. Its like back yard football or pickup basketball. The people you will play with are who is around, NOT necessarily people who match you in skill.

Ranked modes are like a competitive league you join where people are expected to be on your skill level.

Now say you play a sport and are good at it but you are looking to have fun with some friends. Pickup “insert sport here” is fun to have a casual game and you could choose to dominate which is fun but not necessary. But in this case lets add SBMM and replace your feiends with people who also play the sport and are just as good as you. Now what would have been just a casual game where a couple of people are way better is now a sweat fest and no fun for anyone because if you aren’t trying your hardest now you are getting smoked every game.

In short SBMM needs to be almost comepletly removed from casual modes if not completely and honestly way more strict in ranked and based on the highest player in a party and not the average because if you don’t do this people just get a way lower skill friend to make games easier. I get people want to play ranked with friends but getting free easy wins shouldn’t happen unless you can really hard carry.

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I am playing THE SAME people over and over and over and over again in quick play. The same Onyx players time and time again. It’s actually pathetic

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Nailed it. Agree with all of that

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Halo 3 and Reach had a strict SBMM (the other games i don’t know about). The only difference with Infinite is that you didn’t know it back then, so you didn’t blame SBMM for not completely stomping others.

That is simply not the case. I for instance have a k/d or 1.71 (that is including the incredable amount of laggy matches during S1!) and get a k/d of 1.8 or higher almost every day in S2, even though losing almost every match. So that the games makes everybody have a k/d of 1.0 is complete BS.
And you know it, since your k/d is also clearly above 1.0, namely 1.53.

Then go play Bot Bootcamp. You don’t? Because it’s boring i assume? That is why SBMM helps high skill players too, because otherwise their experience with the game will just get boring.

Wow, the ‘bad players don’t deserve to play’-argument. The high point of entitlement.

Bad example, because that back yard football is with relatives or close friends. Not with some rando’s. And mostly you will hold back when you play with them (otherwise they lose interested in playing with you). But on videogames those much more skilled players mostly won’t hold back, especially since they don’t even realy know the enemies.

Almost all sports make their matches skill based, because that is the only way to keep the sport casual for the casual players. Playing against the more skilled players of that sport is no fun for both. It’s infuriating for the casuals who will just leave the sport and it’s completely boring for the better players who will probably also leave the sport, since they are not being challenged and won’t be able to see how good they can actually become.

No, it definitely shouldn’t. Social should be for everybody, not just the elitist who feel entitled to stomp everybody else.

I can get to the 2nd part of this, since that would remove the smurfing problem etc.
The first part (much stricter): it is already stricter then social. Making it more stricter would probably only result in people (mostly the most and less skilled ones) not finding matches.

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I’m not saying i would dominate nor want to every game. Most of those older shooters i can remember almost every game someone would be way higher on the list. I was rarely that because i was in middle school at the time and not great at gaming. Thats part of it. And maybe backyard football was a bad example, its more like pickup basketball at a local park. Someone there could be way better than everyone else and no one knows it. But now instead of saying yeah play with these people because you are close to the park we ship in people near their skill just because they are good, not because they signed up to be in a competitive situation.

Maybe if they made a social play list where it is just random then have a “competitive” play list where its not ranked but has SBMM for a closer match. Then have ranked with really strict SBMM to give something for people to grind for.

I would say SBMM is a big problem but not the biggest. Honestly the lack of unlocks outside of a pass or store is my biggest problem. H3 had the best system for armor unlocks because you had challenges that were specific and unchanging so you could tell what people had to do to earn it. If we could get some armors like this then a system like Reach with credits for the rest of the armor and then losen up SBMM I think way more people would play.

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