Sangheili (Elites) In New Trilogy Matchmaking (Part 1)

Games Halo 5: Guardians
8382

> > I’m in support of Elites coming back in H5 with customization on par with the SIVs. the only thing that can pose a problem is we need a canonical reason for them. As we know the Arbiter has a treaty with the UNSC so the forces loyal to the Arbiter can possibly be integrated into human civilizations as a “client” species. what you guys think?
>
> Or, the Elites become “honorary Spartans” if Arby and his forces team up with humans, or something like that.

Or they are to be considered allies of a different unit within the infinity without the whole “becoming Spartans” thing even happening. They are already strong enough as is to deal with the Spartans own strength, why bother making them Op?

8383

> > > I’m in support of Elites coming back in H5 with customization on par with the SIVs. the only thing that can pose a problem is we need a canonical reason for them. As we know the Arbiter has a treaty with the UNSC so the forces loyal to the Arbiter can possibly be integrated into human civilizations as a “client” species. what you guys think?
> >
> > Or, the Elites become “honorary Spartans” if Arby and his forces team up with humans, or something like that.
>
> Or they are to be considered allies of a different unit within the infinity without the whole “becoming Spartans” thing even happening. They are already strong enough as is to deal with the Spartans own strength, why bother making them Op?

Yeah, that makes sense. Either way, I just want to play as an Elite again.

8384

Anyone else hoping for a new design for the Elites in the next Halo game? Maybe throwing back to their aesthetic in previous Halo’s? There seem to be more people that dislike the new design than like it, and 343 must have realised their mistake concerning the Elite’s biting their own cheeks with their upper mandibles.

Tbh, I found their armour especially lacklustre.

8385

> > > > I’m in support of Elites coming back in H5 with customization on par with the SIVs. the only thing that can pose a problem is we need a canonical reason for them. As we know the Arbiter has a treaty with the UNSC so the forces loyal to the Arbiter can possibly be integrated into human civilizations as a “client” species. what you guys think?
> > >
> > > Or, the Elites become “honorary Spartans” if Arby and his forces team up with humans, or something like that.
> >
> > Or they are to be considered allies of a different unit within the infinity without the whole “becoming Spartans” thing even happening. They are already strong enough as is to deal with the Spartans own strength, why bother making them Op?
>
> Yeah, that makes sense. Either way, I just want to play as an Elite again.

I actually think having playable Elites be honorary Spartans is a good way to go.

For one the Elites will have to be in the same group as the Spartans in order to work in teams which is something that has to happen. And sorting out the differences in rank and their command hierarchy could lead to problems. It’d be better if everyone can just work under the one system , although perhaps some changes should be made to the current Spartan military structure to accommodate for the inclusion of the Sangheili. Perhaps having two commanders, one human and one Sangheili should be one of these changes so that there’s no chance of one playing favourites without the other intervening. Commander Half jaw anyone?

Plus if the Elites aren’t Spartans then the ranking system might get complicated in and out of War games.

And why shouldn’t an Elite be allowed to become a Spartan? The word Spartan should be treated more like a title, not a definition for an augmented human, there’s more to it then that. Elites can take anything a Spartan can so they should have the right to bare the title and shouldn’t be restricted because of his or her species that’s just not right. Equal treatment.

Although I guess it really comes down to what it means to be a Spartan. Which is a very debatable topic. Some think that the SIVs aren’t even true Spartans (not my opinion) so if they get away with calling themselves that then why can’t Elites? And if John is without a doubt a Spartan then why isn’t the Arbiter who is of equal skill? Is it really only because the Arbiter is a Sangheili and not an augmented human? That just doesn’t sound right.

8386

^ The truth is, even if an pro-human sangheili was given the offer to be a spartan, they would still decline. The sangheili, as you already know, are a proud race, so they wouldn’t want to associate themselves with a group that is well known for it’s augmentations.

8387

> ^ The truth is, even if an pro-human sangheili was given the offer to be a spartan, they would still decline. The sangheili, as you already know, are a proud race, so they wouldn’t want to associate themselves with a group that is well known for it’s augmentations.

So very much this. It wouldn’t even look right to begin with anyways since Sangheili have their own ranking structure, their own armor sets and their own honor code that are far different than that of humans. Sure, give us ranks and such when it comes to matchmaking and such, but don’t even try forcing Elite’s to become Spartans, it would just look completely dumb, and it sounds dumb at the same time.

Like hell, does This look good? Cause it sure as heck doesn’t bode me well.

8388

Gone for a few days and a metric but tonne of reading and catching up to do.Nice to see such a great amount of activity on the forum,last time I checked in it was a tad slow.

Speaking of Sangheilis’ appearance,and in special regard to their mandibles,I do prefer the slightly curved ones from reach.But its apparent in ranks like the Field Officer which I have that they appear rather bony,hence making mandible guards desirable to make them look beefier in Halo Reach.I believe the mandibles ought to look more muscular since biologically speaking they do use them to shred food.The rank I’d like to see return the most is the Honor Guardsman,they look amazing,but do need touch ups.Their abdomen and chest look relatively light on armor,and should be reinforced with greater protection.

Since the Energy Sword is essentially the Sangheili’s signature weapon,I shall speak of it.And someone,correct me if I’m wrong,said in a post a few pages ago that they made sword fighting easier for players over time,and I’m not entirely sure as to the truth of this statement.But I’d like more realistic mechanics implemented in sword fighting,such as the greater the altitude the aggressor jumps from and lunges from the air onto a target at lower elevation,the greater the amount of force applied on the defender,and results in a less effective parry and reduced shield damage reduction gained from doing so when they normally would other wise.With things like the greater the distance(latitude wise) of which an aggressor lunges from,the greater the amount of kinetic energy derived from the attack and hence a stronger strike,making it easier for the attacker to break an opponents parry.The speed of the aggressor should also be taken into account,so the faster a lunge is made the harder it hits.A new mechanism should be made in which an overwhelming amount of kinetic energy derived from a lunge of any altitude or angle should automatically break an opponents parry and cause knock back or kill the defender,depending on the latter’s health and shield levels.The knock back will be relative to the amount of kinetic energy built up in an attack under any circumstance.Not sure about you guys,but there should also involve a move in which the player passively blocks.

And Kaine,that photo is rather disturbing.

8389

> ^ The truth is, even if an pro-human sangheili was given the offer to be a spartan, they would still decline. The sangheili, as you already know, are a proud race, so they wouldn’t want to associate themselves with a group that is well known for it’s augmentations.

But we don’t even know if the sangheili’s distaste for medical procedures leads them to think of augmented soldiers as dishonorable, we don’t even know if that distaste still exists considering that it seems that the Sangheili are going to have to get past that in order to survive.

We also don’t know if the Sangheili even know that the Spartans have augmentation and how the Sangheili’s opinion of Sparatns would change if they were to find out.

There’s no evidence to support any of this but something we do know is that the Sangheili have a respect for the Spartans as rivals, warriors and equals. Assuming that that doesn’t change then the Sangheili shouldn’t have any issues bearing the title of Spartan. And as rivals, warriors and equals the Sangheili should have the right bare that title.

If the Elites have an issue with the Spartans like this then I doubt that they would be sighing up to fight alongside them in the first place.

> So very much this. It wouldn’t even look right to begin with anyways since Sangheili have their own ranking structure, their own armor sets and their own honor code that are far different than that of humans. Sure, give us ranks and such when it comes to matchmaking and such, but don’t even try forcing Elite’s to become Spartans, it would just look completely dumb, and it sounds dumb at the same time.
>
> Like hell, does This look good? Cause it sure as heck doesn’t bode me well.

Who’s talking about armor? You seem to be making the assumption that I a think a Spartan has to wear MJOLNIR which is ridiculous, just look at the SIs. Like I said the word Spartan should be a title for a skilled warrior and definitely not just someone who wears a certain type of armor. And of course the Elites will continue to wear their own armor, I don’t even know how you got the idea that I wanted Elites to look like that.

And I don’t see why the sangheili’s honor code should get in the way of them becoming Spartans. If the Sangheili’s cultural beliefs get in the way of them bearing the title then does that stop humans with different cultural beliefs from becoming Spartans too? Or what if a Sangheili came along without an honor code? Would he a legible to be a Spartan while other Sangheili and Humans with strong cultural beliefs are not? Things like cultural beliefs, religion, philosophies etc shouldn’t get in the way.

As for how the ranking structure would work it’s hard to predict how it would turn out. Yes the Sangheili already have their own military structure but one thing we know is that if there are going to be Elites on Infinity working with SIVs then those Elites will be special and 343 will likely have the freedom to make their rank special as well. We know that the Elites will be working with the SIVs which means that they will be working within the Spartan branch. The military structure for the Spartan branch will need to revised for both the SIVs and Sangheili to work together but they will none the less be working in the Spartan branch which means what ever the ranking structure is after the revision that ranking structure will be a Spartan ranking structure and anybody under it will technically be a Spartan. But again it’s hard to imagine how exactly it would work out.

And why would it be forcing Elites to become Spartans? The Elites the SIVs will be working with will obviously be volunteers just like the SIVs.

But obviously your definition of what a true Spartan is is different from mine which is fine. Like I said it’s a debatable topic.

8390

> > Quick question to everyone: If you could choose one Elite armor set from any previous Halo to be brought to the next game, which set would you want?
> >
> > Personally, I’d love to see Ascetic return. I always wanted it, but never could because it was almost impossible to get. If it was brought back with an easier prerequisite, I’d wear it for sure.
>
> Definitely Honour Guard. The Assault harness and “General” armour sets are also two more of my favourites.
> I hope there’s a variant that allows us to have a helmet-less character model, similar to the “Lights of Sanghelios” in Halo 2.
>
>
> Does anyone else prefer the straight mandibles from Halo 2/ 3? The curved mandibles just don’t look right in my opinion.

God I hate Halopedia.

Whether or not the White Honour Guards scene in a single Halo 2 cutscene are actually Lights of Sangheilios is completely unconfirmed. Especially because the cause of the White armour appearing was a glitch, similar to the famous ‘honour guard councilour’ glitch in the mission Gravemind.

I swear Halopedia is only about 25% confirmed fact, then there’s 50% speculation trying desperately to tie hear-say from one instance in one book to a game or otherwise, and the last 25% is literally made up on the spot.

Also, please, I get so agitated seeing people refer to Honour Guards, as Honour ‘Guardsmen’. Sangheili are not ‘men’.

Anyway now that that stuff’s out of the way, here’s the penultimate and most educated answer you’ll get about whether or not Elites should become ‘Spartans’ (as a title).

No.

Spartans represent the best warriors of the human race. The reason Spartan IIs were named Spartan IIs, was because they were effectively the first new generation of soldiers genetically-hand picked, trained from the age of 6, and augmented to be the most powerful human soldiers in the 2500s. Just like the greatest soldiers of humanity’s past, the Spartans of Sparta, who legends say would only allow strong children to live, and would train them effectively from birth to fight. It is an entirely HUMAN term, from HUMAN mythology.

As well, just because the Arbiter is cooperating with the UNSC does NOT mean him, or his followers are a part of the UNSC’s navy, honorary or otherwise. However it DOES mean the possibility of being granted the ability to train with and accompany UNSC naval forces exists. What this means, basically, is not that an Elite would become a member of a Spartan squad, but rather that Elite forces, and vice versa Spartan forces, may be put in a situation to effectively ‘tag along’ with a Spartan Squad or Elite Squad under the premise of full cooperation for the duration of the mission. And Elites would be allowed to utilize War Games simulations alongside Spartans for training purposes.

8391

> Like I said the word Spartan should be a title for a skilled warrior and definitely not just someone who wears a certain type of armor. And of course the Elites will continue to wear their own armor, I don’t even know how you got the idea that I wanted Elites to look like that.
>
> And I don’t see why the sangheili’s honor code should get in the way of them becoming Spartans. If the Sangheili’s cultural beliefs get in the way of them bearing the title then does that stop humans with different cultural beliefs from becoming Spartans too? Or what if a Sangheili came along without an honor code? Would he a legible to be a Spartan while other Sangheili and Humans with strong cultural beliefs are not? Things like cultural beliefs, religion, philosophies etc shouldn’t get in the way.
>
> As for how the ranking structure would work it’s hard to predict how it would turn out. Yes the Sangheili already have their own military structure but one thing we know is that if there are going to be Elites on Infinity working with SIVs then those Elites will be special and 343 will likely have the freedom to make their rank special as well. We know that the Elites will be working with the SIVs which means that they will be working within the Spartan branch. The military structure for the Spartan branch will need to revised for both the SIVs and Sangheili to work together but they will none the less be working in the Spartan branch which means what ever the ranking structure is after the revision that ranking structure will be a Spartan ranking structure and anybody under it will technically be a Spartan. But again it’s hard to imagine how exactly it would work out.
>
> And why would it be forcing Elites to become Spartans? The Elites the SIVs will be working with will obviously be volunteers just like the SIVs.
>
> But obviously your definition of what a true Spartan is is different from mine which is fine. Like I said it’s a debatable topic. [/color]

Spartans are human soldiers that have been augmented as part of a Spartan program. Nothing more, nothing less. If the title of ‘Spartan’ was available to Elites then why not open it up to the Jackals too? And the Hunters, and the Drones, and the Grunts, and the rest of Humanity while we’re at it.

Spartans in the Halo universe are products of a Spartan program.

8392

> > Like I said the word Spartan should be a title for a skilled warrior and definitely not just someone who wears a certain type of armor. And of course the Elites will continue to wear their own armor, I don’t even know how you got the idea that I wanted Elites to look like that.
> >
> > And I don’t see why the sangheili’s honor code should get in the way of them becoming Spartans. If the Sangheili’s cultural beliefs get in the way of them bearing the title then does that stop humans with different cultural beliefs from becoming Spartans too? Or what if a Sangheili came along without an honor code? Would he a legible to be a Spartan while other Sangheili and Humans with strong cultural beliefs are not? Things like cultural beliefs, religion, philosophies etc shouldn’t get in the way.
> >
> > As for how the ranking structure would work it’s hard to predict how it would turn out. Yes the Sangheili already have their own military structure but one thing we know is that if there are going to be Elites on Infinity working with SIVs then those Elites will be special and 343 will likely have the freedom to make their rank special as well. We know that the Elites will be working with the SIVs which means that they will be working within the Spartan branch. The military structure for the Spartan branch will need to revised for both the SIVs and Sangheili to work together but they will none the less be working in the Spartan branch which means what ever the ranking structure is after the revision that ranking structure will be a Spartan ranking structure and anybody under it will technically be a Spartan. But again it’s hard to imagine how exactly it would work out.
> >
> > And why would it be forcing Elites to become Spartans? The Elites the SIVs will be working with will obviously be volunteers just like the SIVs.
> >
> > But obviously your definition of what a true Spartan is is different from mine which is fine. Like I said it’s a debatable topic. [/color]
>
> Spartans are human soldiers that have been augmented as part of a Spartan program. Nothing more, nothing less. If the title of ‘Spartan’ was available to Elites then why not open it up to the Jackals too? And the Hunters, and the Drones, and the Grunts, and the rest of Humanity while we’re at it.
>
> Spartans in the Halo universe are products of a Spartan program.

Spartans should remain Spartans. The Elites can have their title “Elite” simply be the equal to the title “Spartan”.

8393

> Anyway now that that stuff’s out of the way, here’s the penultimate and most educated answer you’ll get about whether or not Elites should become ‘Spartans’ (as a title).
>
> No.
>
> Spartans represent the best warriors of the human race. The reason Spartan IIs were named Spartan IIs, was because they were effectively the first new generation of soldiers genetically-hand picked, trained from the age of 6, and augmented to be the most powerful human soldiers in the 2500s. Just like the greatest soldiers of humanity’s past, the Spartans of Sparta, who legends say would only allow strong children to live, and would train them effectively from birth to fight. It is an entirely HUMAN term, from HUMAN mythology.

You make some good points but it could be argued that a Spartan used to be an entirely Greek term from Greek mythology yet the Spartan name was later adopted and expanded by the human culture of the 2500’s, when this happened the term evolved and changed such as how modern Spartans wear full body while the Greek ones didn’t. Now yes there’s plenty of major differences between the Sangheili adopting the term and modern Humanity adopting the term, a big one being that it took hundreds of years for humanity to give their own soldiers the name while I’m expecting the Sangheili that work with us to do it within a decade but the fact that terms like this can expand beyond race and culture makes it a possibility that the sangheili could use the term too and once they do the term would continue to change and evolve just as it has been since Halsey decided on the name all those years ago.

This evolution of the term has been naturally evolving throughout the Halo franchise. We began with the SIIs that had a lot of obvious differences from their Ancient Greek counterparts, then there’s the IIIs which had a lot of things that were different from the IIs like the more flexible age restrictions and had a mentality of quantity over quality, then with introduction of the IVs the ideology of using children is out the window along with a large number of other changes. Throwing out the idea that only Humans can be Spartans will just be continuing the evolution of the term Spartan.

But again this just goes down to how everyone’s opinion of what a spartan is is different. If you think that a Spartan is human term and that should never change then that’s fine.

> As well, just because the Arbiter is cooperating with the UNSC does NOT mean him, or his followers are a part of the UNSC’s navy, honorary or otherwise. However it DOES mean the possibility of being granted the ability to train with and accompany UNSC naval forces exists. What this means, basically, is not that an Elite would become a member of a Spartan squad, but rather that Elite forces, and vice versa Spartan forces, may be put in a situation to effectively ‘tag along’ with a Spartan Squad or Elite Squad under the premise of full cooperation for the duration of the mission. And Elites would be allowed to utilize War Games simulations alongside Spartans for training purposes.

This does make sense and it is a possibility. I can even imagine cool ways of how it could work for some really cool situations.

But it has just one flaw. Having Fire teams consisting of mixes of both SIVs and Sangheili wouldn’t exist. Which would really suck because having a team with mixed troops could lead to so many cool characters. I want mixed teams that work together just like Majestic does but the only difference is that some of the members would be Sangheili. Can you imagine just how cool that would be!

> Spartans are human soldiers that have been augmented as part of a Spartan program. Nothing more, nothing less. If the title of ‘Spartan’ was available to Elites then why not open it up to the Jackals too? And the Hunters, and the Drones, and the Grunts, and the rest of Humanity while we’re at it.
>
> Spartans in the Halo universe are products of a Spartan program.

So your of the opinion that a Spartan has to come from a Spartan program and also be a human? This is fine but I have to ask what about the Greek Spartans? They weren’t part of a Spartan program so that kinda breaks this. Along with the fact that there’s a Spartan branch and as far as we know there are only Spartans from Spartan programs in this branch but what if someone like one of those project Javelin soldiers that were supposed to be super soldiers too were to become part of the branch because they meet the necessary requirements but don’t need to go through a Spartan program to meet the requirements? Would they not be allowed to join because they didn’t go through a Spartan program? Will they have to unnecessarily go through a Spartan program to get in? And even if they were allowed to join the branch would they still not be considered true Spartans even though they are just as good as any other Spartan, fight along side their fellow Spartans and meet every mental and physical trait that a Spartan should have? Just because they didn’t go through an unnecessary program that they don’t need in order to meet the requirements. And in your opinion why is being human a requirement even if a non human solider meets all the physical and mental requirements?

And since that I am of the opinion that one’s species shouldn’t get in the way of becoming a Spartan then yes. Grunts, Jackals, Drones etc should have that opportunity as long as they meet the physical and mental requirements of becoming a Spartan and as long as they can be trusted, though I find it hard to believe that one of these species would be able to meet these requirements without major alterations to their bodies and minds. And pretty much all Humans that can be trusted have the option already. All they have to do is sign up, prove their worthiness and join the Spartans which is is something that I think that all sentient species should have.

> Spartans should remain Spartans. The Elites can have their title “Elite” simply be the equal to the title “Spartan”.

Elite is just a nick name, theirs nothing honorable about it and it’s not an equivalent to the Spartan title. But I can see what you mean, Having both SIVs and Elites be considered Spartans could be confusing.

I want to make the point that this would only be a title not what they would often be referred as. A Spartan is a title but a Spartan IV is a solider from the Spartan IV program which should be treated like two different things. So While SIVs and Elites will both be Spartans by title they’ll still be referred to as Elites and SIVs on missions so that players can still make that distinction.

One last thing that I want to say is that I’m sure all of you have counter arguments prepared by the time you finish reading this but I want you to know that what I’m saying is based on what my opinion of what a Spartan is and as I said before everyone has their own definition so I in no way expect to convince you to change your opinions and because of all these different oppinions I doubt that we’ll ever come to a mutual agreement.

8394

> > Spartans are human soldiers that have been augmented as part of a Spartan program. Nothing more, nothing less. If the title of ‘Spartan’ was available to Elites then why not open it up to the Jackals too? And the Hunters, and the Drones, and the Grunts, and the rest of Humanity while we’re at it.
> >
> > Spartans in the Halo universe are products of a Spartan program.
>
> So your of the opinion that a Spartan has to come from a Spartan program and also be a human? This is fine but I have to ask what about the Greek Spartans? They weren’t part of a Spartan program so that kinda breaks this. Along with the fact that there’s a Spartan branch and as far as we know there are only Spartans from Spartan programs in this branch but what if someone like one of those project Javelin soldiers that were supposed to be super soldiers too were to become part of the branch because they meet the necessary requirements but don’t need to go through a Spartan program to meet the requirements? Would they not be allowed to join because they didn’t go through a Spartan program? Will they have to unnecessarily go through a Spartan program to get in? And even if they were allowed to join the branch would they still not be considered true Spartans even though they are just as good as any other Spartan, fight along side their fellow Spartans and meet every mental and physical trait that a Spartan should have? Just because they didn’t go through an unnecessary program that they don’t need in order to meet the requirements. And in your opinion why is being human a requirement even if a non human solider meets all the physical and mental requirements?
>
> And since that I am of the opinion that one’s species shouldn’t get in the way of becoming a Spartan then yes. Grunts, Jackals, Drones etc should have that opportunity as long as they meet the physical and mental requirements of becoming a Spartan and as long as they can be trusted, though I find it hard to believe that one of these species would be able to meet these requirements without major alterations to their bodies and minds. And pretty much all Humans that can be trusted have the option already. All they have to do is sign up, prove their worthiness and join the Spartans which is is something that I think that all sentient species should have.

  1. Yes, all Spartans in the modern Halo universe have to be the product of a Spartan program. Otherwise they’re not Spartans. You seem to have forgotten that there is a huge distinction between Ancient Greek Spartans and modern Halo Spartans. The Ancient Greek Spartans aren’t Spartans in the sense that we’re talking about here. They’re simply the namesake of the program and shouldn’t be mentioned in this discussion to prevent confusion.

  2. We don’t know if Javelin actually resulted in any super soldiers, their plans likely never came to fruition due to the fact that no one has heard of any of them and because of the success and focus on the Spartan programs. Even if they did produce super soldiers, they’re a product of the Javelin program and so they wouldn’t be Spartans, they’d be Javelins or something along those lines. The Spartan branch would have to be renamed the Super-soldier branch to accommodate all products of super soldier programs. I imagine Javelin wasn’t successful due to the Spartans earning their own branch. As such, the focus will be on Spartans.

  3. It’s not possible for other species to become a Spartan, do you know the amount of research and testing that was needed for the Spartan program? It wouldn’t be feasible to find safe methods of augmenting aliens, we don’t understand their physiology enough - we’ve only just improved human augmentation to achieve results on par with the other Spartan programs with adult humans.

It’s purely a Human thing.

8395

> 1. Yes, all Spartans in the modern Halo universe have to be the product of a Spartan program. Otherwise they’re not Spartans. You seem to have forgotten that there is a huge distinction between Ancient Greek Spartans and modern Halo Spartans. The Ancient Greek Spartans aren’t Spartans in the sense that we’re talking about here. They’re simply the namesake of the program and shouldn’t be mentioned in this discussion to prevent confusion.
>
> 2. We don’t know if Javelin actually resulted in any super soldiers, their plans likely never came to fruition due to the fact that no one has heard of any of them and because of the success and focus on the Spartan programs. Even if they did produce super soldiers, they’re a product of the Javelin program and so they wouldn’t be Spartans, they’d be Javelins or something along those lines. The Spartan branch would have to be renamed the Super-soldier branch to accommodate all products of super soldier programs. I imagine Javelin wasn’t successful due to the Spartans earning their own branch. As such, the focus will be on Spartans.
>
> 3. It’s not possible for other species to become a Spartan, do you know the amount of research and testing that was needed for the Spartan program? It wouldn’t be feasible to find safe methods of augmenting aliens, we don’t understand their physiology enough - we’ve only just improved human augmentation to achieve results on par with the other Spartan programs with adult humans.
>
> It’s purely a Human thing.

  1. Opinion. Like I keep saying this is a debatable subject with no solid answer. Personally I don’t see why the Greek Spartans need to be that separate from the modern ones. Every single generation has differences from each other and in a lot of ways the Greek Spartans have more similarities then the IIs have to the IVs. I just don’t see why they shouldn’t be taken into consideration, but again that’s just my opinion.

  2. Just to clarify, I only used Javelin because they were the only known example of a human that probably could’ve gotten into the branch without going through a mainstream Spartan program. But I have to ask. Do you really think that it would be a good idea to change the name of the branch, a name that is linked to the heroes that humanity would’ve been wiped out if it had not been for just to accommodate for worthy soldiers that didn’t go through a traditional Spartan program? It’s makes more sense to me that they’d be brought into the Spartan branch and then be given the title of Spartan. But that’s going down to our differing opinions on what a Spartan is again, you see the Spartans as those strictly from Spartan programs while I see the term Spartan as a title. A title that can be earned and given. So I believe that a Javelin or anybody that’s worthy for that matter should have the right bare the title.

  3. When did I ever say that I thought augmentations were required to be a Spartan? I believe that a solider has to meet a high level of physical and mental discipline in order to be a Spartan and the Sangheili can already meet this standard without augmentations. Humans need augs to meet the standards of a modern Spartan but we’ve seen that the Sangheili don’t. But this makes me wonder. If we were to have a Sangheili augmented through a Spartan program would that be enough for you or is the Sangheili still incapable of calling themselves a Spartan because he/she isn’t human?

There’s another point I’d like to make but beware there’s an Escalation spoiler involved. My mentality is pretty much this:

Those that enter a certain Spartan program will leave as a member of that program. The SIVs for example are from the SIV program giving them that name but they’re not true Spartans just because they’ve gone through the Spartan IV program. The name given to you for exiting a Spartan program (SII, III, IV) should be treated differently then that of the title Spatan. You’re a Spartan III because you were in the SIII program but what makes you a true Spartan is your mental and physical traits (among other things) that set you at the highest standard of solider. And what about Spartans like Scruggs? He’s an SIV because he was in the the SIV program but he’s probably no longer part of the Spartan branch at this stage and is a traitor to the UNSC. Is he still a Spartan? He still went through a Spartan program and is an SIV because of that but in my opinion he’s lost the right to call himself a Spartan by title.But this debate isn’t going to end because neither one of us are right or wrong about what a true Spartan is. It’s all down to opinion.

8396

> > 1. Yes, all Spartans in the modern Halo universe have to be the product of a Spartan program. Otherwise they’re not Spartans. You seem to have forgotten that there is a huge distinction between Ancient Greek Spartans and modern Halo Spartans. The Ancient Greek Spartans aren’t Spartans in the sense that we’re talking about here. They’re simply the namesake of the program and shouldn’t be mentioned in this discussion to prevent confusion.
> >
> > 2. We don’t know if Javelin actually resulted in any super soldiers, their plans likely never came to fruition due to the fact that no one has heard of any of them and because of the success and focus on the Spartan programs. Even if they did produce super soldiers, they’re a product of the Javelin program and so they wouldn’t be Spartans, they’d be Javelins or something along those lines. The Spartan branch would have to be renamed the Super-soldier branch to accommodate all products of super soldier programs. I imagine Javelin wasn’t successful due to the Spartans earning their own branch. As such, the focus will be on Spartans.
> >
> > 3. It’s not possible for other species to become a Spartan, do you know the amount of research and testing that was needed for the Spartan program? It wouldn’t be feasible to find safe methods of augmenting aliens, we don’t understand their physiology enough - we’ve only just improved human augmentation to achieve results on par with the other Spartan programs with adult humans.
> >
> > It’s purely a Human thing.
>
> 1. Opinion. Like I keep saying this is a debatable subject with no solid answer. Personally I don’t see why the Greek Spartans need to be that separate from the modern ones. Every single generation has differences from each other and in a lot of ways the Greek Spartans have more similarities then the IIs have to the IVs. I just don’t see why they shouldn’t be taken into consideration, but again that’s just my opinion.
>
> 2. Just to clarify, I only used Javelin because they were the only known example of a human that probably could’ve gotten into the branch without going through a mainstream Spartan program. But I have to ask. Do you really think that it would be a good idea to change the name of the branch, a name that is linked to the heroes that humanity would’ve been wiped out if it had not been for just to accommodate for worthy soldiers that didn’t go through a traditional Spartan program? It’s makes more sense to me that they’d be brought into the Spartan branch and then be given the title of Spartan. But that’s going down to our differing opinions on what a Spartan is again, you see the Spartans as those strictly from Spartan programs while I see the term Spartan as a title. A title that can be earned and given. So I believe that a Javelin or anybody that’s worthy for that matter should have the right bare the title.
>
> 3. When did I ever say that I thought augmentations were required to be a Spartan? I believe that a solider has to meet a high level of physical and mental discipline in order to be a Spartan and the Sangheili can already meet this standard without augmentations. Humans need augs to meet the standards of a modern Spartan but we’ve seen that the Sangheili don’t. But this makes me wonder. If we were to have a Sangheili augmented through a Spartan program would that be enough for you or is the Sangheili still incapable of calling themselves a Spartan because he/she isn’t human?
>
> There’s another point I’d like to make but beware there’s an Escalation spoiler involved. My mentality is pretty much this:
>
> Those that enter a certain Spartan program will leave as a member of that program. The SIVs for example are from the SIV program giving them that name but they’re not true Spartans just because they’ve gone through the Spartan IV program. The name given to you for exiting a Spartan program (SII, III, IV) should be treated differently then that of the title Spatan. You’re a Spartan III because you were in the SIII program but what makes you a true Spartan is your mental and physical traits (among other things) that set you at the highest standard of solider. And what about Spartans like Scruggs? He’s an SIV because he was in the the SIV program but he’s probably no longer part of the Spartan branch at this stage and is a traitor to the UNSC. Is he still a Spartan? He still went through a Spartan program and is an SIV because of that but in my opinion he’s lost the right to call himself a Spartan by title.But this debate isn’t going to end because neither one of us are right or wrong about what a true Spartan is. It’s all down to opinion.

  1. Greek Spartans are separate from modern Halo Spartans because they aren’t the same thing. The Ancient Greek Spartans had a warrior culture that included being trained to fight since childhood. Halsey chose the name “Spartan” for the spartan programme because she saw a similarity between what she was doing and the culture of the Ancient Greeks. The Spartans in terms of the modern Halo universe are super-soldiers, not Greeks descended from Sparta. Had Halsey chosen one of the dozen other names that she was considering for the programme (including Titan, Promethean etc), then that connection via name wouldn’t be there. The name of the programme is just that, a name, a label. It’s transparent and shouldn’t be considered.

  2. Yeah I understand. The name of the branch would have to be changed to encompass products of all super-soldier programmes. If a Javelin were to join the Spartan branch, then the branch wouldn’t consist of solely Spartans, and so it wouldn’t make sense to call it the Spartan branch.

  3. Well that’s my opinion, what makes a Spartan is purely physiological. An individual that has been augmented, equipped, and possibly trained (depending on whether the IVs received any extra training, I assume they did to fill in the gaps in training between the servicemen who joined from different branches of the UNSC) through a Spartan programme. If an ODST or other special forces soldier in the UNSC were to be at the peak of his natural human fitness and possessed the same disciplinary and mental requirements as a Spartan, would you consider him/ her a Spartan? I wouldn’t, they’d simply be an above average ODST or special forces soldier, and the UNSC would consider them as such as well (Which is why there are no ODSTs in the Spartan branch, they’re all products of a Spartan programme). I’m not sure about the augmented Sangheili. Technically yes, I would consider them a Spartan.

I’ve had this debate with someone else who believed that “Spartan” is a title to be earned and not a descriptor. Scruggs is still a Spartan, he went through a Spartan programme, and was augmented and equipped as such.

Grey team were known for their mischief, with one of the members stealing and crashing a Pelican. This mischief presumably carried on until graduation from the programme as they were isolated from the other Spartans and sent behind enemy lines to do what they do best - sow discord. After the Battle of Metisette they planned to forcibly steal a Prowler if their request for one was denied. Clearly they lack the discipline that is one of your requirements. Are they not Spartans?

8397

@Mega66 I’m going to have to double post because I ran out of characters and I’m not quite done yet haha.

Emile-A239 had a large collection of covenant contraband that directly violated the Cole Protocol. He was also undisciplined on the field often making jokes to aggravate other members "Big man forgets what he is sometimes). Is he not a Spartan either?

Kat-B320 often cracked too many codes and looked up classified intel just because she was curious. Does she also lack the required discipline? Is she not a Spartan?

I’m trying to come up with an analogy and it’s a bit contrived but I hope you get the gist. Say for example, Hovis bread was the best bread, unparalleled in taste and texture, it was widely accepted as the best. If someone preferred Warburton’s bread, could they call it Hovis bread because in their eyes it is just as good, if not better, and as such has earned the right to be called Hovis? The Warburton’s bread would still be Warburton’s because it is made by Warburton’s, not Hovis.

Sorry about that, bread was the first thing that came to mind for some reason. I’m dead hungry though, it could be that.

8398

> 1. Greek Spartans are separate from modern Halo Spartans because they aren’t the same thing. The Ancient Greek Spartans had a warrior culture that included being trained to fight since childhood. Halsey chose the name “Spartan” for the spartan programme because she saw a similarity between what she was doing and the culture of the Ancient Greeks. The Spartans in terms of the modern Halo universe are super-soldiers, not Greeks descended from Sparta. Had Halsey chosen one of the dozen other names that she was considering for the programme (including Titan, Promethean etc), then that connection via name wouldn’t be there. The name of the programme is just that, a name, a label. It’s transparent and shouldn’t be considered.

This is just going down to opinion again. I believe the Greeks should be treated like any other generation with it’s own ways of thinking and methods and of course in your opinion you don’t think they should be compared to the modern Spartans because they aren’t from a Spartan program. This isn’t going to end with a mutual agreement on how the Greek Spartans should be compared to the modern ones.

> 2. Yeah I understand. The name of the branch would have to be changed to encompass products of all super-soldier programs. If a Javelin were to join the Spartan branch, then the branch wouldn’t consist of solely Spartans, and so it wouldn’t make sense to call it the Spartan branch.

Well I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I believe that if a Javelin gets to join the branch he should just be given the title of Spartan and then the branch will once again consist of only Spartans.

> 3. Well that’s my opinion, what makes a Spartan is purely physiological. An individual that has been augmented, equipped, and possibly trained (depending on whether the IVs received any extra training, I assume they did to fill in the gaps in training between the servicemen who joined from different branches of the UNSC) through a Spartan programme. If an ODST or other special forces soldier in the UNSC were to be at the peak of his natural human fitness and possessed the same disciplinary and mental requirements as a Spartan, would you consider him/ her a Spartan? I wouldn’t, they’d simply be an above average ODST or special forces soldier, and the UNSC would consider them as such as well (Which is why there are no ODSTs in the Spartan branch, they’re all products of a Spartan programme). I’m not sure about the augmented Sangheili. Technically yes, I would consider them a Spartan.

Fine then I respect you opinion. Just know that I disagree, if an ODST or any un augmented human by some miracle got to that level then he should have the right to bare the title.

> I’ve had this debate with someone else who believed that “Spartan” is a title to be earned and not a descriptor. Scruggs is still a Spartan, he went through a Spartan programme, and was augmented and equipped as such.

Yes he’s a Spartan IV because he went through the Spartan IV program. But name SIV and the title of Spartan should be treated like two different things. He’s a Spartan IV but he has lost the right to bare the Spartan title through his actions. But again that’s just my own opinion. I know that you will disagree. I believe that terms like SIV, SIII, Javelin, Sangheili etc are the descriptors while the sole word Spartan should be treated like a title by anybody that is worthy.

There’s no wrong or right answer here. The term Spartan can be a descriptor or a title. It’s a debatable subject that could go either way

> Grey team were known for their mischief, with one of the members stealing and crashing a Pelican. This mischief presumably carried on until graduation from the programme as they were isolated from the other Spartans and sent behind enemy lines to do what they do best - sow discord. After the Battle of Metisette they planned to forcibly steal a Prowler if their request for one was denied. Clearly they lack the discipline that is one of your requirements. Are they not Spartans?
>
> @Mega66 I’m going to have to double post because I ran out of characters and I’m not quite done yet haha.
>
> Emile-A239 had a large collection of covenant contraband that directly violated the Cole Protocol. He was also undisciplined on the field often making jokes to aggravate other members "Big man forgets what he is sometimes). Is he not a Spartan either?
>
> Kat-B320 often cracked too many codes and looked up classified intel just because she was curious. Does she also lack the required discipline? Is she not a Spartan?

There’s a difference between being a loose cannon and turning on your own squad and killing them. What Scruggs has done is something that should cause for his title to get revoked. The Spartans you’ve listed are just cases of them getting into trouble with superiors, it’s not like Kat turned around and shot Carter in the head. There’s a certain level of how much a Spartan should have to do to get their title revoked, getting in trouble like those other Spartans did isn’t on that level but what Scruggs did is.

Theses Spartans still show the mentality a Spartan should have. They just get into trouble. Scruggs killing his team mates and betraying the UNSC is on a whole other level.

8399

> I’m trying to come up with an analogy and it’s a bit contrived but I hope you get the gist. Say for example, Hovis bread was the best bread, unparalleled in taste and texture, it was widely accepted as the best. If someone preferred Warburton’s bread, could they call it Hovis bread because in their eyes it is just as good, if not better, and as such has earned the right to be called Hovis? The Warburton’s bread would still be Warburton’s because it is made by Warburton’s, not Hovis.
>
> Sorry about that, bread was the first thing that came to mind for some reason. I’m dead hungry though, it could be that.

The types of bread like Hovies and Warburtons should be treated as the equivalents to the groups that produce individual loafs of bread like SIVs, Sangheili, SIIs etc. that create individual soldiers.

You could say that Hovies bread is the best but if another loaf that was equally good came along you would say that that loaf can hold the title of best bread too. Just like how it’s widely believed that the SIIs are the best Spartans, if another solider came along that was just as good you wouldn’t call them an SII but you would call them a Spartan because they are worthy of that title.

The title of Spartan or the best loaf should be held by individual loafs of bread from any group that produces them. Say that Warburtons created only three loafs of bread on that level and Hovies had fourteen that were of a high enough standard to get the title. The Sangheili are capable of creating soldiers that can bare the title but that doesn’t mean that every Sangheili can and the SIV program can produce soldiers that can bare the title but that doesn’t mean all of them are worthy just because we know that a few SIVs are. In the same way if Warburtons has a few loafs that are on this level we can’t assume that evry loaf they make is on that level.

So:

Bread creators>Programs and groups that produce potential Spartans.

Individual Bread>Individual soldiers.

Title of best individual loaf of bread>Title of Spartan.

Title of best producer of bread>Title of best program or group that produces soldiers that can bare the Spartan title.

We can keep going on with this and I’m pretty sure this is going to end with you just out lasting me to the point where I’ve lost all my energy. I’m mentally exhausted already. I’ve spent hours typing for this debate and this is the first and second time that I’ve reached the character limit.

Just know that neither of the points we’re making are wrong. It’s just that because we have different opinions on what a Spartan is so obviously the points we’re going to make are going to be vastly different.

8400

> > > Quick question to everyone: If you could choose one Elite armor set from any previous Halo to be brought to the next game, which set would you want?
> > >
> > > Personally, I’d love to see Ascetic return. I always wanted it, but never could because it was almost impossible to get. If it was brought back with an easier prerequisite, I’d wear it for sure.
> >
> > Definitely Honour Guard. The Assault harness and “General” armour sets are also two more of my favourites.
> > I hope there’s a variant that allows us to have a helmet-less character model, similar to the “Lights of Sanghelios” in Halo 2.
> >
> >
> > Does anyone else prefer the straight mandibles from Halo 2/ 3? The curved mandibles just don’t look right in my opinion.
>
> God I hate Halopedia.
>
> Whether or not the White Honour Guards scene in a single Halo 2 cutscene are actually Lights of Sangheilios is completely unconfirmed. Especially because the cause of the White armour appearing was a glitch, similar to the famous ‘honour guard councilour’ glitch in the mission Gravemind.
>
> I swear Halopedia is only about 25% confirmed fact, then there’s 50% speculation trying desperately to tie hear-say from one instance in one book to a game or otherwise, and the last 25% is literally made up on the spot.
>
> Also, please, I get so agitated seeing people refer to Honour Guards, as Honour ‘Guardsmen’. Sangheili are not ‘men’.
>
>
> Anyway now that that stuff’s out of the way, here’s the penultimate and most educated answer you’ll get about whether or not Elites should become ‘Spartans’ (as a title).
>
> No.
>
> Spartans represent the best warriors of the human race. The reason Spartan IIs were named Spartan IIs, was because they were effectively the first new generation of soldiers genetically-hand picked, trained from the age of 6, and augmented to be the most powerful human soldiers in the 2500s. Just like the greatest soldiers of humanity’s past, the Spartans of Sparta, who legends say would only allow strong children to live, and would train them effectively from birth to fight. It is an entirely HUMAN term, from HUMAN mythology.
>
> As well, just because the Arbiter is cooperating with the UNSC does NOT mean him, or his followers are a part of the UNSC’s navy, honorary or otherwise. However it DOES mean the possibility of being granted the ability to train with and accompany UNSC naval forces exists. What this means, basically, is not that an Elite would become a member of a Spartan squad, but rather that Elite forces, and vice versa Spartan forces, may be put in a situation to effectively ‘tag along’ with a Spartan Squad or Elite Squad under the premise of full cooperation for the duration of the mission. And Elites would be allowed to utilize War Games simulations alongside Spartans for training purposes.

If you have a problem with it then why don’t you help update some of the articles? Some of them are old and get neglected. As such many wear the wounds of when Halopedia was first created when speculation and fan names ran amuk.

8401

@mega 66 CQC
Elite has some respect that surrounds the title. Though I suppose a more appropriate title would be something along the lines of Spartan (even though the ancient Spartans were great warriors which Sangheili aspire to be). Instead the Sangheili could have their own title, something of historical value to the Sangheili race. If there was to be a new covenant then titles would be able to identify each member and of how high a rank they would be. Spartans and this Sangheili title would be treated as equal and each would be earned, but by separate restrictions, these restrictions would allow their commanders to be able to know how well one of such a rank could perform and decide their proper placement. A Spartan should be able to wear the typical battle armor that you would expect could be a restriction, or perhaps how well you would decimate the enemy. The latter being more appropriate due to the fact that one who can wear the armor does not necessarily mean has the capacity to use it well and prove their right to the rank. Though what I see when I see Spartan is a title and not a rank. In the modern armies of today an individual is promoted due to their excellent performance in the field of combat. This is true as well for the armies of Halo. Spartan is more of a title than a rank. It tells of what an individual has gone through in order to receive this title. John-117 received the highest rank possible as master chief, yet others of the same title have not all received that same title due to them not having proved their right to such a rank. I believe that Spartan belongs to the humans that have gone through the pains of becoming what it means, and that if a Sangheili goes through the same pains then they can receive their own title but with equal value to their own eyes.