Sandbox - Balancing

LUKM1K · January 24, 2019, 12:01pm

A simple example. 1vs1 duel:

Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)

Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.

My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.

I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.

Rxcluze · January 24, 2019, 1:51pm

That’s why I usually pick up weapons like the boltshot so that the enemy won’t use it. I usually won’t use it either it’s just too cheap.

QX · January 24, 2019, 3:59pm

> 2533274874453277;1:
> A simple example. 1vs1 duel:
>
> - Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
> - Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)
>
> Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
> An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.
>
> My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.
>
> I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.

In order to have Promethean weapons track you need to pull the trigger when your reticle is on the enemy. Very similar to how a precision weapon works. The main difference is that the boltshot has travel time meanwhile a magnum shot is instant.

Also the TTK is lower for the magnum so you have the better weapon.

If you get killed with a boltshot by a less skilled player it’s because you lacked the skills within that gunfight, assuming it’s a 1v1 head on battle. Other covenant weapons that you mentioned are actually balanced worse for a competitive sandbox than the boltshot.

Edit: your aim still has to be on point when weilding a boltshot. Unless you are talking about bullet magnetism which affects all weapons.

LUKM1K · January 24, 2019, 4:37pm

> 2535425287181699;3:
> > 2533274874453277;1:
> > A simple example. 1vs1 duel:
> >
> > - Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
> > - Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)
> >
> > Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
> > An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.
> >
> > My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.
> >
> > I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.
>
> In order to have Promethean weapons track you need to pull the trigger when your reticle is on the enemy. Very similar to how a precision weapon works. The main difference is that the boltshot has travel time meanwhile a magnum shot is instant.
>
> Also the TTK is lower for the magnum so you have the better weapon.
>
> If you get killed with a boltshot by a less skilled player it’s because you lacked the skills within that gunfight, assuming it’s a 1v1 head on battle. Other covenant weapons that you mentioned are actually balanced worse for a competitive sandbox than the boltshot.
>
> Edit: your aim still has to be on point when weilding a boltshot. Unless you are talking about bullet magnetism which affects all weapons.

no I do not think we can say this. The skill level required to make headshot with precision weapons is much higher than necessary to use a boltshot well.

But, I also talked about the case when the opponent does not kill me but nevertheless he did me a huge amount of damage in relation to the ease of use of those weapons, and I will easily be finished by one of his teammates.

I mean that, imho, those weapons are too effective in relation to the skill needed to use them.

Of course if I’m good I win using magnum. But I would have preferred that this kind of weapon was so effective only on the short distance, giving the dominance over medium distance to precision weapons.

QX · January 24, 2019, 6:08pm

> 2533274874453277;4:
> > 2535425287181699;3:
> > > 2533274874453277;1:
> > > A simple example. 1vs1 duel:
> > >
> > > - Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
> > > - Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)
> > >
> > > Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
> > > An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.
> > >
> > > My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.
> > >
> > > I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.
> >
> > In order to have Promethean weapons track you need to pull the trigger when your reticle is on the enemy. Very similar to how a precision weapon works. The main difference is that the boltshot has travel time meanwhile a magnum shot is instant.
> >
> > Also the TTK is lower for the magnum so you have the better weapon.
> >
> > If you get killed with a boltshot by a less skilled player it’s because you lacked the skills within that gunfight, assuming it’s a 1v1 head on battle. Other covenant weapons that you mentioned are actually balanced worse for a competitive sandbox than the boltshot.
> >
> > Edit: your aim still has to be on point when weilding a boltshot. Unless you are talking about bullet magnetism which affects all weapons.
>
> no I do not think we can say this. The skill level required to make headshot with precision weapons is much higher than necessary to use a boltshot well.
>
> But, I also talked about the case when the opponent does not kill me but nevertheless he did me a huge amount of damage in relation to the ease of use of those weapons, and I will easily be finished by one of his teammates.
>
> I mean that, imho, those weapons are too effective in relation to the skill needed to use them.
>
> Of course if I’m good I win using magnum. But I would have preferred that this kind of weapon was so effective only on the short distance, giving the dominance over medium distance to precision weapons.

Wait really? Like the boltshot is only competitive at close range. Over medium to long range you can thrust to put the shots off target and get behind cover before they track to you.

And for a boltshot to kill once shields are down I’m pretty sure you have to hit headshots for a single burst kill. Which again you need to aim for the head for that to happen.

If a player is getting good damage on you with a boltshot it’s pretty safe to assume they would get good damage with a magnum. As you don’t need to hit anywhere in particular for the first 4 shots you have to be just as accurate with the magnum as the boltshot.

There are much worse sandbox issues that could be addressed before a situational slight advantage the boltshot can give.

I mean if the boltshot/suppressor were OP like you are mentioning then everyone would always be picking them up and using them similar to the red gun or old storm rifle. But that doesn’t happen. Most of the time they are picked up to act as a secondary/ giving the ability to yy.

LUKM1K · January 24, 2019, 6:54pm

> 2535425287181699;5:
> > 2533274874453277;4:
> > > 2535425287181699;3:
> > > > 2533274874453277;1:
> > > > A simple example. 1vs1 duel:
> > > >
> > > > - Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
> > > > - Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)
> > > >
> > > > Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
> > > > An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.
> > > >
> > > > My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.
> > > >
> > > > I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.
> > >
> > > In order to have Promethean weapons track you need to pull the trigger when your reticle is on the enemy. Very similar to how a precision weapon works. The main difference is that the boltshot has travel time meanwhile a magnum shot is instant.
> > >
> > > Also the TTK is lower for the magnum so you have the better weapon.
> > >
> > > If you get killed with a boltshot by a less skilled player it’s because you lacked the skills within that gunfight, assuming it’s a 1v1 head on battle. Other covenant weapons that you mentioned are actually balanced worse for a competitive sandbox than the boltshot.
> > >
> > > Edit: your aim still has to be on point when weilding a boltshot. Unless you are talking about bullet magnetism which affects all weapons.
> >
> > no I do not think we can say this. The skill level required to make headshot with precision weapons is much higher than necessary to use a boltshot well.
> >
> > But, I also talked about the case when the opponent does not kill me but nevertheless he did me a huge amount of damage in relation to the ease of use of those weapons, and I will easily be finished by one of his teammates.
> >
> > I mean that, imho, those weapons are too effective in relation to the skill needed to use them.
> >
> > Of course if I’m good I win using magnum. But I would have preferred that this kind of weapon was so effective only on the short distance, giving the dominance over medium distance to precision weapons.
>
> Wait really? Like the boltshot is only competitive at close range. Over medium to long range you can thrust to put the shots off target and get behind cover before they track to you.
>
> And for a boltshot to kill once shields are down I’m pretty sure you have to hit headshots for a single burst kill. Which again you need to aim for the head for that to happen.
>
> If a player is getting good damage on you with a boltshot it’s pretty safe to assume they would get good damage with a magnum. As you don’t need to hit anywhere in particular for the first 4 shots you have to be just as accurate with the magnum as the boltshot.
>
> There are much worse sandbox issues that could be addressed before a situational slight advantage the boltshot can give.
>
> I mean if the boltshot/suppressor were OP like you are mentioning then everyone would always be picking them up and using them similar to the red gun or old storm rifle. But that doesn’t happen. Most of the time they are picked up to act as a secondary/ giving the ability to yy.

I can only tell you my opinion, namely that poorly* average players manage to take too much health too easily with this kind of weapon.

i mean players less skilled than me. Obviously everything is relative.

At this point I’m curious to know what should be balanced for you.

QX · January 24, 2019, 7:16pm

> 2533274874453277;6:
> > 2535425287181699;5:
> > > 2533274874453277;4:
> > > > 2535425287181699;3:
> > > > > 2533274874453277;1:
> > > > > A simple example. 1vs1 duel:
> > > > >
> > > > > - Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
> > > > > - Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)
> > > > >
> > > > > Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
> > > > > An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.
> > > >
> > > > In order to have Promethean weapons track you need to pull the trigger when your reticle is on the enemy. Very similar to how a precision weapon works. The main difference is that the boltshot has travel time meanwhile a magnum shot is instant.
> > > >
> > > > Also the TTK is lower for the magnum so you have the better weapon.
> > > >
> > > > If you get killed with a boltshot by a less skilled player it’s because you lacked the skills within that gunfight, assuming it’s a 1v1 head on battle. Other covenant weapons that you mentioned are actually balanced worse for a competitive sandbox than the boltshot.
> > > >
> > > > Edit: your aim still has to be on point when weilding a boltshot. Unless you are talking about bullet magnetism which affects all weapons.
> > >
> > > no I do not think we can say this. The skill level required to make headshot with precision weapons is much higher than necessary to use a boltshot well.
> > >
> > > But, I also talked about the case when the opponent does not kill me but nevertheless he did me a huge amount of damage in relation to the ease of use of those weapons, and I will easily be finished by one of his teammates.
> > >
> > > I mean that, imho, those weapons are too effective in relation to the skill needed to use them.
> > >
> > > Of course if I’m good I win using magnum. But I would have preferred that this kind of weapon was so effective only on the short distance, giving the dominance over medium distance to precision weapons.
> >
> > Wait really? Like the boltshot is only competitive at close range. Over medium to long range you can thrust to put the shots off target and get behind cover before they track to you.
> >
> > And for a boltshot to kill once shields are down I’m pretty sure you have to hit headshots for a single burst kill. Which again you need to aim for the head for that to happen.
> >
> > If a player is getting good damage on you with a boltshot it’s pretty safe to assume they would get good damage with a magnum. As you don’t need to hit anywhere in particular for the first 4 shots you have to be just as accurate with the magnum as the boltshot.
> >
> > There are much worse sandbox issues that could be addressed before a situational slight advantage the boltshot can give.
> >
> > I mean if the boltshot/suppressor were OP like you are mentioning then everyone would always be picking them up and using them similar to the red gun or old storm rifle. But that doesn’t happen. Most of the time they are picked up to act as a secondary/ giving the ability to yy.
>
> I can only tell you my opinion, namely that poorly* average players manage to take too much health too easily with this kind of weapon.
>
> * i mean players less skilled than me. Obviously everything is relative.
>
> At this point I’m curious to know what should be balanced for you.

Grenade hit markers should be removed.

2 shot melee with LR and DMR are questionable.

DMR close range aim assist should be reverted and make long range shooting harder.

Storm rifle still takes health off too quickly

Red gun burst then melee is too strong.

Splinter grenades should be removed from multiplayer as they are still too much of a get out of jail free card.

Incineration cannon projectile speed should be slowed to allow dodging at medium to long ranges.

SMG should have a slight buff.

Make the BR feel good again (the actual stats are fine but it just feels gross to shoot).

DoubleSama · January 24, 2019, 10:08pm

There have been complaints about boltshots beating precision weapons before on these forums, and all I have to say on the subject is that precision weapons have a longer effective range than the boltshot does. If you don’t want the boltshot to track you, then use your precision weapon to kill from a distance.

LUKM1K · January 25, 2019, 8:09am

> 2533274843634673;8:
> There have been complaints about boltshots beating precision weapons before on these forums, and all I have to say on the subject is that precision weapons have a longer effective range than the boltshot does. If you don’t want the boltshot to track you, then use your precision weapon to kill from a distance.

Of course you can (should) avoid throwing yourself into the close fray, but medium-short distance combat situations there will always be and indeed, have always been the soul of halo. I believe that something can be changed to improve things. but it’s my opinion, of course.

Obviously for some the game is perfect so, in this case there is nothing to discuss.

LUKM1K · January 25, 2019, 8:24am

> 2535425287181699;7:
> > 2533274874453277;6:
> > > 2535425287181699;5:
> > > > 2533274874453277;4:
> > > > > 2535425287181699;3:
> > > > > > 2533274874453277;1:
> > > > > > A simple example. 1vs1 duel:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Red Player has a precision weapon (Magnum, BR, DMR)
> > > > > > - Blue Player has a “easy” weapon, (Bolthot)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Precision weapons are more effective but only if your accuracy is perfect. If, for example, red player sends fail a critical hit, weapons like the boltshot can win the fight.
> > > > > > An SMG is very powerful close up, but almost useless on the average distance. This is an example of optimal balance. Instead, a Brute plasma rifle or a storm rifle, already manage to be quite competitive even on the medium-short distance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My question is: why, on one side, a moderately better player has to work hard to perform perfect kills and, on the other side, a poorer player can have an easy life thanks to a gun with self-driving bullets? I do not know about you, but I hate when a poorer player manages to put me one shot to kill or even kill me just thanks to the easy weapon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do not even agree with the philosophy according to which one must know how to choose the right weapon at the right time. Here we are talking about balancing based on distance, and in my opinion there is a bad overlap between some “easy” and semi-automatic precision weapons.
> > > > >
> > > > > In order to have Promethean weapons track you need to pull the trigger when your reticle is on the enemy. Very similar to how a precision weapon works. The main difference is that the boltshot has travel time meanwhile a magnum shot is instant.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also the TTK is lower for the magnum so you have the better weapon.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you get killed with a boltshot by a less skilled player it’s because you lacked the skills within that gunfight, assuming it’s a 1v1 head on battle. Other covenant weapons that you mentioned are actually balanced worse for a competitive sandbox than the boltshot.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edit: your aim still has to be on point when weilding a boltshot. Unless you are talking about bullet magnetism which affects all weapons.
> > > >
> > > > no I do not think we can say this. The skill level required to make headshot with precision weapons is much higher than necessary to use a boltshot well.
> > > >
> > > > But, I also talked about the case when the opponent does not kill me but nevertheless he did me a huge amount of damage in relation to the ease of use of those weapons, and I will easily be finished by one of his teammates.
> > > >
> > > > I mean that, imho, those weapons are too effective in relation to the skill needed to use them.
> > > >
> > > > Of course if I’m good I win using magnum. But I would have preferred that this kind of weapon was so effective only on the short distance, giving the dominance over medium distance to precision weapons.
> > >
> > > Wait really? Like the boltshot is only competitive at close range. Over medium to long range you can thrust to put the shots off target and get behind cover before they track to you.
> > >
> > > And for a boltshot to kill once shields are down I’m pretty sure you have to hit headshots for a single burst kill. Which again you need to aim for the head for that to happen.
> > >
> > > If a player is getting good damage on you with a boltshot it’s pretty safe to assume they would get good damage with a magnum. As you don’t need to hit anywhere in particular for the first 4 shots you have to be just as accurate with the magnum as the boltshot.
> > >
> > > There are much worse sandbox issues that could be addressed before a situational slight advantage the boltshot can give.
> > >
> > > I mean if the boltshot/suppressor were OP like you are mentioning then everyone would always be picking them up and using them similar to the red gun or old storm rifle. But that doesn’t happen. Most of the time they are picked up to act as a secondary/ giving the ability to yy.
> >
> > I can only tell you my opinion, namely that poorly* average players manage to take too much health too easily with this kind of weapon.
> >
> > * i mean players less skilled than me. Obviously everything is relative.
> >
> > At this point I’m curious to know what should be balanced for you.
>
> 2 shot melee with LR and DMR are questionable.
>
> DMR close range aim assist should be reverted and make long range shooting harder.
>
> Storm rifle still takes health off too quickly
>
> Red gun burst then melee is too strong.
>
> Splinter grenades should be removed from multiplayer as they are still too much of a get out of jail free card.
>
> Incineration cannon projectile speed should be slowed to allow dodging at medium to long ranges.
>
> SMG should have a slight buff.
>
> Make the BR feel good again (the actual stats are fine but it just feels gross to shoot).

I agree with many of the things you said, even though I did not understand how you would like it to be melee.

To the list I would add:

Make magnum 4 shot to kill and decrease the range.
Return of the classic three burst BR (like as H2A version).
Lightrifle: If you want to leave the three shot in scope mode, it should be more difficult to use on medium-short distance.
Buff storm rifle, boltshot, brute plasma rifle, needler.