Reverse-debating

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Many people claim to be open minded and logical, but in order to do so one must consider both sides of a coin before siding with one. This is a little exercise to show if you’ve done the leg work when coming to your current beliefs/philosophies.

There is a hypothetical billion dollar prize if you can A. make a reasonable argument for why “Modern” is the way to go while you are pro “Classic”, or B. make a reasonable argument for why Classic is the best, and you’re pro “Modern”.

Again, people in favor of Classic shall make arguments for why “Modern” is the way to go, and people in favor of Modern shall make arguments for why “Classic” is the way to go.

2

Oh, this will be very enjoyable! As some of you may know, I’m very much in favour of traditional Halo over the new Infinity playstyle, but this should prove an interesting challenge.

As we know, in traditional Halo, there was a severe lack of variety in weapons on the map. On The Pit, there was only one Rocket Launcher, one Sword and two Shotguns. If the enemy team got a hold of the Rocket Launcher halfway through the match by being lucky and being at the right place at the right time, how am I supposed to fight back against that? After all, I’ve been getting a bunch of kills with my BR, and was even on a killing spree, but then some guy comes out of nowhere and blasts me with the rockets before I can do anything. With Halo 4’s personal ordnance system, everybody gets a shot at having a power weapon rather than just one lucky person. This balances out the player/power weapon ratio, making things more fair and even. He blasted me with his Rocket Launcher, sure, but then I’ll come back with my SAW and take him out back, so it’s even.

In addition, personal ordnance allows people to use weapons that they wouldn’t normally use. Let’s say that I’m a big fan of smaller matches, 4v4 games. In past Halo games, I would never get my hands on the big weapons like the Spartan Laser, since they hardly ever appeared on the smaller maps. Hell, there were only a small selection of weapons that would appear on certain maps at all. Guardian didn’t have a Sword, Rockets, or a Flamethrower. With personal ordnance, the variety of weapons on a particular map grows exponentially, and people can get the opportunity to use any weapon in the sandbox, no matter which map they’re playing. Furthermore, the variety of weapons in-play at a specific time is higher as well. Since people are constantly getting weapons from drops, you’ll see a guy running around with a Needler, while another guy has a Scattershot. In past Halo games, a lot of people stuck to the BR.

Loadouts also add a lot to the variety of weapons seen in Halo 4. Some people prefer the Carbine or Assault Rifle over the BR. With Loadouts, they now have the opportunity to spawn with those weapons. No more need to go and try to find them on the map and get killed in the process, people can play with their favourite precision weapon whenever they want! Plus, building on the variety argument seen above, people will now have Storm Rifles or Light Rifles instead of just the same old BR, offering a more enriched experience.

Oh, and what about those games where the enemies are camping outside your base with two tanks, leaving your team with absolutely no way to take them out? With Loadouts, being able to spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades really helps counter those moment where you’re stuck and unable to do anything. That way, games prove to be less frustrating and more enjoyable. I know I can speak for many people when I say that cowering in your base on Hemmorhage as you’re surrounded by two Wraiths, a bunch of Ghosts, Warthogs and Reventants in Reach is quite dull.

Ok, that’s all I can do, it was neat to argue for the other side for once. Now let’s see what other people have to say!

3

Modern is the way to go because players don’t have a big attention span. Progression ranks and loadout unlocks are necessary and beneficial because they constantly provide the player with new objectives to pursue and new abilities to use and counter. Players don’t care about winning or skill as much as they just want to play a game the way they want to play it and not have to worry about coordination or team strategy.

Classic is the way to go because their replay value is derived from the simple pleasures of having fun and getting better. Skill doesn’t have a ceiling–there’s always room for improvement–so players can continue learning and enjoying the game even after max rank has been reached. Players want to feel like they’re getting better at the game, and this is accomplished by making sure all players are equal so that they can learn from their tactics’ successes and failures and eventually learn the best ones.

4

Classic is the way to go because the competitive fanbase is so obviously the majority sifts through papers with gibberish on them titled “proof”. Competitive defined as mastering the same skill set ten years in a row without ever having to learn anything new or overcome any new challenges. Identical starts with semi-automatic guns are the end all - be all of competitive gaming, forget those scrub–Yoink- games like Counter Strike. Any deviation from this norm is bad and breaks our NOT-arbitrarily defined triangle. There is absolutely no way we could evolve past this complex and deep gameplay, no way that I’d be willing to adapt to anyways.

For these reasons I [OOC DON’T] support classic gameplay.

Modern is the way to go because obviously games aren’t fun if they are even remotely difficult to grasp. A game should aid a user in any way it can. After all, games aren’t the product of a person’s input weighted against the computer, that would be what watching an animation is, correct? What matters most is if you yourself are having fun using powerful tools, and not if your enemies stand no chance against the foo strategy you strictly adhere to. Furthermore, why stick with such a bland, balanced set of items when you could ride blazing transforming motorcycles up walls triple wielding weapons with flaming armor while leveling up your “coolness” progression bar, among other ideas I pulled out of my ten year old child’s head? Wouldn’t you love Halo to evolve into such an epic, content packed game?

For these reasons I [OOC DON’T] support modern gameplay.

Both arguments have their stupid aspects.

5

> Classic is the way to go because the competitive fanbase is so obviously the majority sifts through papers with gibberish on them titled “proof”. Competitive defined as mastering the same skill set ten years in a row without ever having to learn anything new or overcome any new challenges. Identical starts with semi-automatic guns are the end all - be all of competitive gaming, forget those scrub–Yoink!- games like Counter Strike. Any deviation from this norm is bad and breaks our NOT-arbitrarily defined triangle. There is absolutely no way we could evolve past this complex and deep gameplay, no way that I’d be willing to adapt to anyways.
>
> For these reasons I [OOC DON’T] support classic gameplay.
>
> Modern is the way to go because obviously games aren’t fun if they are even remotely difficult to grasp. A game should aid a user in any way it can. After all, games aren’t the product of a person’s input weighted against the computer, that would be what watching an animation is, correct? What matters most is if you yourself are having fun using powerful tools, and not if your enemies stand no chance against the foo strategy you strictly adhere to. Furthermore, why stick with such a bland, balanced set of items when you could ride blazing transforming motorcycles up walls triple wielding weapons with flaming armor while leveling up your “coolness” progression bar, among other ideas I pulled out of my ten year old child’s head? Wouldn’t you love Halo to evolve into such an epic, content packed game?
>
> For these reasons I [OOC DON’T] support modern gameplay.
>
> Both arguments have their stupid aspects.

Wow Ramir, I never knew you could be so sassy. Had a genuine laugh the whole way through.

I might be back to actually contribute to the topic later, but I’m afraid I might end up just parroting the excellent arguments you guy have already made for Classic time and again.

Great idea though.

6

This looks like a thread that is prone to heavy bias, but I’m going to try it out anyway.

Why ‘Modern’ Halo Wouldn’t Work:

Ultimately, since the whole modernist movement in Halo seems to revolve around the Personal Loadout debate, that is the source of many problems, and many advantages. However, while I may support loadouts, there are tons of problems with them.

The most notable problem with loadouts is that in some cases, certain maps are designed exclusively with a specific starting weapon in mind.

Sandtrap, for example, is a mostly open map that only really plays well when people start with a close-quarters weapon. During a match on Sandtrap (or Sandtarp), the person who picks up a mid-range rifle, such as the BR or the CC, is generally better off than the person who decides to keep their AR. If Sandtrap were to be in Halo 4, it’s almost certain that people who decide not to spawn with an LR or a DMR will be setting themselves up for a quick defeat.

On the other hand, Derilect, in CE, is an extremely small map and I can only dream of the slaughter that will happen to people who make the unfortunate mistake of having primarily mid-to-long range loadouts.

Why ‘Classic’ Halo Wouldn’t Work:

Classic Halo, while it may be a rewarding experience, could be just as frustrating. Knowing that most of the consumer market consists of people who aren’t willing to dedicate most of their time to a specific game, most consumers, at least in this day and age, would ultimately be turned off by the high learning curve that Halo used to have.

Furthermore, Classic Halo, especially the Ranking System in Halo 3 (the one that you had to win to earn XP), could be extremely frustrating and in my experience, ultimately turned me away from Halo 3’s matchmaking. When it comes to ranking systems, I always preferred the progressive system that Reach and 4 had. But above that, I find it extremely important to have both a progressive system, and a skill-based system, which is what Halo 4 attempted.

7

Well now that’s out of my system, I can’t really argue for either without relying on generalization, because both sides are lumping tons of mechanics into just two separate groups. What if someone likes loadouts and hates ordnance? What if someone loves dual wielding but hates projectile weapons?

Instead of making threads about ‘classic’ or ‘modern’ it would be more productive to make threads tackling specific ideas.

What is classic? To me that’s Magnums on Blood Gulch. To someone else it’s BR’s on Guardian.

> Why not have both available?

Don’t like the idea of splitting the game right down the middle. Too much work, too much player division, etc.

Remove what people hate, keep what people like, then have a few “pure classic” playlists on the side. You don’t even have to remove a lot of things so long as you organize it properly. Someone in ranked slayer doesn’t want ordnance, someone in action sack doesn’t want to play Team Mag’s on Derelict.

8

Why not have both available?
A series of playlists in the “classical” style (Halos 1-3) and a series of playlists for the “modern” style (Reach & Halo 4) … over time, it’ll be clear which is more popular by just keeping track of how many people play each.
Make it obvious; select “Matchmaking” or “Wargames” and there will be “Classic” & “Modern” each filled with their own versions of Slayer, King of the Hill, Swat, etc.

9

> Why not have both available?
> A series of playlists in the “classical” style (Halos 1-3) and a series of playlists for the “modern” style (Reach & Halo 4) … over time, it’ll be clear which is more popular by just keeping track of how many people play each.
> Make it obvious; select “Matchmaking” or “Wargames” and there will be “Classic” & “Modern” each filled with their own versions of Slayer, King of the Hill, Swat, etc.

The problem with having equal support for both playstyles is that you end up splitting the total population in half. Since Halo isn’t as popular as it once was, a low population is already something that we may have to deal with.

The lower the population, the higher the lag.

Now, let’s assume for the worst here: Halo Xbox One maintains a population of no higher than 30k and no lower than 20k. If we decide to split match-making into two categories: Infinity or Classic, the population range pretty much becomes 15-10k.

The population may be 30k, but the amount of lag you’ll experience is the amount with half of that number. That’s not something that we should want.

Furthermore, it seems that Infinity and Classic are slightly incompatible when it comes to map-design. Infinity gamemodes, due to the presence of sprint, require a significant increase in map-size which would in turn also require inflation for weapon-range so that most engagements don’t favor mid-range or long-range. Now, Classic gamemodes, which lack sprint, will play horrendously slow with the changes in map-design and sandbox that Infinity imposes.

Luckily, however, most of the incompatibility issues with map-design can be reduced by bumping up the base player speed for Classic gamemodes, which would also make the art of strafing an effective way of dodging enemy fire.

10

> Oh, this will be very enjoyable! As some of you may know, I’m very much in favour of traditional Halo over the new Infinity playstyle, but this should prove an interesting challenge.
>
> As we know, in traditional Halo, there was a severe lack of variety in weapons on the map. On The Pit, there was only one Rocket Launcher, one Sword and two Shotguns. If the enemy team got a hold of the Rocket Launcher halfway through the match by being lucky and being at the right place at the right time, how am I supposed to fight back against that?

I just wanna comment on this small flaw. On The Pit there are 2 Snipers, 1 Rocket Launcher, 2 Shotguns, 4 Maulers, 4 SMG’s, 4 Spikers, 2 Detachable Turrets, 2 Needlers, 2 Brute-Shots, 2 Plasma Rifles, and (1 Plasma Pistol (I think)).

If you count Power ups as weapons you have: 1 Camoflage, 1 Overshield, and 2 Regenatorfields.

As I am pulling this straight from my head I can’t say for certainty that there is a Plasma Pistol on the map. As I never pull host that weapon is kind of useless to me meaning I don’t pick it up. When you are not host the magnetism goes away and it hits like, never …

11

> > Oh, this will be very enjoyable! As some of you may know, I’m very much in favour of traditional Halo over the new Infinity playstyle, but this should prove an interesting challenge.
> >
> > As we know, in traditional Halo, there was a severe lack of variety in weapons on the map. On The Pit, there was only one Rocket Launcher, one Sword and two Shotguns. If the enemy team got a hold of the Rocket Launcher halfway through the match by being lucky and being at the right place at the right time, how am I supposed to fight back against that?
>
> I just wanna comment on this small flaw. On The Pit there are 2 Snipers, 1 Rocket Launcher, 2 Shotguns, 4 Maulers, 4 SMG’s, 4 Spikers, 2 Detachable Turrets, 2 Needlers, 2 Brute-Shots, 2 Plasma Rifles, and (1 Plasma Pistol (I think)).
>
> If you count Power ups as weapons you have: 1 Camoflage, 1 Overshield, and 2 Regenatorfields.
>
> As I am pulling this straight from my head I can’t say for certainty that there is a Plasma Pistol on the map. As I never pull host that weapon is kind of useless to me meaning I don’t pick it up. When you are not host the magnetism goes away and it hits like, never …

Shh, no pointing out my obvious flaws in order to secretly still support clasic gameplay! >:(

12

> Oh, this will be very enjoyable! As some of you may know, I’m very much in favour of traditional Halo over the new Infinity playstyle, but this should prove an interesting challenge.
>
> As we know, in traditional Halo, there was a severe lack of variety in weapons on the map. On The Pit, there was only one Rocket Launcher, one Sword and two Shotguns. If the enemy team got a hold of the Rocket Launcher halfway through the match by being lucky and being at the right place at the right time, how am I supposed to fight back against that? After all, I’ve been getting a bunch of kills with my BR, and was even on a killing spree, but then some guy comes out of nowhere and blasts me with the rockets before I can do anything. With Halo 4’s personal ordnance system, everybody gets a shot at having a power weapon rather than just one lucky person. This balances out the player/power weapon ratio, making things more fair and even. He blasted me with his Rocket Launcher, sure, but then I’ll come back with my SAW and take him out back, so it’s even.
>
> In addition, personal ordnance allows people to use weapons that they wouldn’t normally use. Let’s say that I’m a big fan of smaller matches, 4v4 games. In past Halo games, I would never get my hands on the big weapons like the Spartan Laser, since they hardly ever appeared on the smaller maps. Hell, there were only a small selection of weapons that would appear on certain maps at all. Guardian didn’t have a Sword, Rockets, or a Flamethrower. With personal ordnance, the variety of weapons on a particular map grows exponentially, and people can get the opportunity to use any weapon in the sandbox, no matter which map they’re playing. Furthermore, the variety of weapons in-play at a specific time is higher as well. Since people are constantly getting weapons from drops, you’ll see a guy running around with a Needler, while another guy has a Scattershot. In past Halo games, a lot of people stuck to the BR.
>
> Loadouts also add a lot to the variety of weapons seen in Halo 4. Some people prefer the Carbine or Assault Rifle over the BR. With Loadouts, they now have the opportunity to spawn with those weapons. No more need to go and try to find them on the map and get killed in the process, people can play with their favourite precision weapon whenever they want! Plus, building on the variety argument seen above, people will now have Storm Rifles or Light Rifles instead of just the same old BR, offering a more enriched experience.
>
> Oh, and what about those games where the enemies are camping outside your base with two tanks, leaving your team with absolutely no way to take them out? With Loadouts, being able to spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades really helps counter those moment where you’re stuck and unable to do anything. That way, games prove to be less frustrating and more enjoyable. I know I can speak for many people when I say that cowering in your base on Hemmorhage as you’re surrounded by two Wraiths, a bunch of Ghosts, Warthogs and Reventants in Reach is quite dull.
>
> Ok, that’s all I can do, it was neat to argue for the other side for once. Now let’s see what other people have to say!

I don’t need to write anything. Hotrod done it all for me.

Love the last paragraph Hotrod. Having the ability to spawn with Plasma Pistol is so much better when you need to take out vehicles. With the help with Rockets from your POD. Vehicles have never been so easy to destroy. Infinity is obviously the better choice,

13

In the big picture, the modern Halo is all about getting rid of the aged model of predictable static strategy, in favor of deeper, more dynamic forms of strategy. Some of the choices that have to be made may sound unintuitive, but there is a sensible rationale behind them.

To start with, Personal Ordnance is often criticized for its randomness, but the immediate randomness is not relevant. In the long term, no player is favored over another and therefore it doesn’t matter if one player receives a Binary Rifle while the other receives a Needler. Those are merely statistical anomalies. One team may get lucky at the start of the game with their drops, but it’s improbable they will be lucky throughout the game.

What the Personal Ordnance system puts emphasis on is dynamic strategies. In a tradtional match with static weapon drops, everything is planned out in advance, which makes the ability of fast decision making less relevant. When the players don’t know what weapons they are going receive, the ability for fast decision making is emphasized. In such a dynamic game the state of the game is allowed to change faster. This means there are more strategic decisions players have to make within a single match, which in terms of strategic depth, leads to a more branching structure, in other words, overall deeper gameplay within a single match.

Loadouts have a similar effect as the strategies of teams depend on which loadout combinations the players choose to spawn with. They allow the players to react to what the other team is doing, emphasizing the dynamic nature of gameplay. As one team chooses a set of loadouts, the other team needs to choose a counter set of loadouts. In the end, the team that can best predict what their opponents would choose in a certain scenario can have the most control of the game.

Armor Abilities are a crucial component of the loadout selection as the sandbox of loadout weapons is fairly shallow with relatively little variation between weapons. While it may suit the player’s preferences to choose a DMR over a BR, the choice doesn’t carry much strategic significance as the behavior of the weapons is very similar. This is where Armor Abilities come in as pieces of equipment that allow players to play very differently and choose different roles.

Promethean Vision allows the player to call out opponents to the rest of the team without being seen. At the same time, the Jetpack user of the team can be in a high location from which they can shoot the opponents. In an objective game such as CTF, there could be an Armor Lock user trying to make their way into the opponents’ base, and utilize their ability whenever they get into trouble until the Jetpack user either kills or forces the opponent to retreat. While these three players of the team are keeping the opponents’ attention, the fourth player of the team would be a back-up plan with an Active Camo, sneaking their way to the opponents flag.

That imaginary scenario highlights the strategic impact of Armor Abilities to the loadout system. Without them the loadouts are no more than a matter of preference.

Loadouts, Armor Abilities, and Personal Ordnance are the most important tools for the strategic evolution of Halo. There are of course more mechanics introduced in modern Halo, but these three are the most relevant for the depth of the game.

And there ends my argument for modern Halo. At some points it felt like I was writing a satire. I let the reader to be the judge of the quality of the end product.

14

> > Oh, this will be very enjoyable! As some of you may know, I’m very much in favour of traditional Halo over the new Infinity playstyle, but this should prove an interesting challenge.
> >
> > As we know, in traditional Halo, there was a severe lack of variety in weapons on the map. On The Pit, there was only one Rocket Launcher, one Sword and two Shotguns. If the enemy team got a hold of the Rocket Launcher halfway through the match by being lucky and being at the right place at the right time, how am I supposed to fight back against that? After all, I’ve been getting a bunch of kills with my BR, and was even on a killing spree, but then some guy comes out of nowhere and blasts me with the rockets before I can do anything. With Halo 4’s personal ordnance system, everybody gets a shot at having a power weapon rather than just one lucky person. This balances out the player/power weapon ratio, making things more fair and even. He blasted me with his Rocket Launcher, sure, but then I’ll come back with my SAW and take him out back, so it’s even.
> >
> > In addition, personal ordnance allows people to use weapons that they wouldn’t normally use. Let’s say that I’m a big fan of smaller matches, 4v4 games. In past Halo games, I would never get my hands on the big weapons like the Spartan Laser, since they hardly ever appeared on the smaller maps. Hell, there were only a small selection of weapons that would appear on certain maps at all. Guardian didn’t have a Sword, Rockets, or a Flamethrower. With personal ordnance, the variety of weapons on a particular map grows exponentially, and people can get the opportunity to use any weapon in the sandbox, no matter which map they’re playing. Furthermore, the variety of weapons in-play at a specific time is higher as well. Since people are constantly getting weapons from drops, you’ll see a guy running around with a Needler, while another guy has a Scattershot. In past Halo games, a lot of people stuck to the BR.
> >
> > Loadouts also add a lot to the variety of weapons seen in Halo 4. Some people prefer the Carbine or Assault Rifle over the BR. With Loadouts, they now have the opportunity to spawn with those weapons. No more need to go and try to find them on the map and get killed in the process, people can play with their favourite precision weapon whenever they want! Plus, building on the variety argument seen above, people will now have Storm Rifles or Light Rifles instead of just the same old BR, offering a more enriched experience.
> >
> > Oh, and what about those games where the enemies are camping outside your base with two tanks, leaving your team with absolutely no way to take them out? With Loadouts, being able to spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades really helps counter those moment where you’re stuck and unable to do anything. That way, games prove to be less frustrating and more enjoyable. I know I can speak for many people when I say that cowering in your base on Hemmorhage as you’re surrounded by two Wraiths, a bunch of Ghosts, Warthogs and Reventants in Reach is quite dull.
> >
> > Ok, that’s all I can do, it was neat to argue for the other side for once. Now let’s see what other people have to say!
>
> I don’t need to write anything. Hotrod done it all for me.
>
> Love the last paragraph Hotrod. Having the ability to spawn with Plasma Pistol is so much better when you need to take out vehicles. With the help with Rockets from your POD. Vehicles have never been so easy to destroy. Infinity is obviously the better choice,

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not… >.>

15

A huge round of applause to Tsassi from me for that one.

Classic halo is preferred because the environment is much more controlled with the only variables being the actions of players themselves. This makes for more fair, fun, and replayable games.

We must ask ourselves, what is the purpose of playing a game of Halo? The answers will likely vary from person to person, but to me it is to find out who was the better player/team and deserved the win. If that is what we seek to find out, we must eliminate any variables that could skew that result, with your win rate being only a function of your skill. Classic gameplay accomplishes this.

Also with classic gameplay, (and I genuinely like this about if not just reverse debating) there is the simplicity. Im never struggling to make a loadout right before the game starts, never need to worry about such things. It’s just pick that one loadout and let’s go. Sometimes thats exactly what I’m looking for.

16

> Oh, and what about those games where the enemies are camping outside your base with two tanks, leaving your team with absolutely no way to take them out? With Loadouts, being able to spawn with a Plasma Pistol and Plasma Grenades really helps counter those moment where you’re stuck and unable to do anything. That way, games prove to be less frustrating and more enjoyable. I know I can speak for many people when I say that cowering in your base on Hemmorhage as you’re surrounded by two Wraiths, a bunch of Ghosts, Warthogs and Reventants in Reach is quite dull.
>
> Ok, that’s all I can do, it was neat to argue for the other side for once. Now let’s see what other people have to say!

> I don’t need to write anything. Hotrod done it all for me.
>
> Love the last paragraph Hotrod. Having the ability to spawn with Plasma Pistol is so much better when you need to take out vehicles. With the help with Rockets from your POD. Vehicles have never been so easy to destroy. Infinity is obviously the better choice,

> I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not… >.>

No Hotrod, just placing a reverse thoughts on why Infinity is so much better.