Playing 3v3 where you can have 2 to 3 bases but can’t produce the resources to maintain them is beyond frustrating. This whole game benefits the low expanding and rushing players. I have no issue with rushing as it will always be possible in RTS games, but when base building and resource build-up is so heavily limited, you are forced with two choices when starting a game:
- Build Marines or Jackrabbits.
- Build Bases and micro-manage just to afford the expansion (without turrets) and hope you aren’t rushed.
You obviously can tell which one is going to be preferred.
I go into more detail below with some numbers that may be useful to you, but it isn’t necessary to read.
TL:DR: As of now, don’t expand, just build units or lose. In the future, expanding and defending should be viable early in the game.
I even did some math to show how illogical this is.
Supply pads take 20 seconds to build, and I basically built 5 in sequence starting at the beginning of a game and nothing else. I did not upgrade them.
1 supply pad by itself provides you ~97 resources in 20 seconds.
2 supply pads provide ~162 resources in 20 seconds or ~81 resources per supply pad. That is a ~16% drop in per supply pad efficiency.
3 supply pads provide ~219 resources in 20 seconds or ~73 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 81 or a 25% from 97.
4 supply pads provide ~257 resources in 20 seconds or ~64 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 73 or a 34% from 97.
For 5 supply pads it is 300 total or ~60 per. For 6 supply pads it is 320 total or ~53 per.
Upgrading one supply pad provides you ~135 resources per 20 seconds per upgraded supply pad.
Two upgraded supply pads net you 270 resources per 20 seconds or 135 per upgraded supply pad.
(Unrelated, but one upgraded and one regular supply pad provides you ~208 resources per 20 seconds which is almost as good as 3 regular supply pads)
Three upgraded supply pads provide ~330 resources in 20 seconds or ~110 resources per upgraded supply pad.
You can compare which combination makes the most sense for your strategy, but something you can quickly determine is that rushers who have one base with 2 upgraded supply pads (basically free since you start with 400 power) + regular supply pads and generators are producing an equivalent of at least 6 regular supply pads and are using all those resources to buy mini-bases to pump out marines and jackrabbits.
If you prioritize building a new base quickly to expand, you will be putting 200 power into a new base and possibly a generator or supply pad upgrade, but you are mathematically screwed by the 3-4 minute mark because you have been spending twice as much (two bases) while only working with 1.5x the amount of resources and so are left with a bunch of worthless regular supply pads, no turrets, no units, almost no power, and against an army of rushers.
I would like to see a time variable affecting the diminishing returns effect of the supply pads because in the late-game I am very happy with the way it is now - basically, it’s not impossible to win a game late currently if your opponent has a base advantage, although it is definitely an advantage to have more.
I would propose that the diminishing returns have 0% of its effect within the first 5 minutes, 25% of its effect 5-10 minutes, 50% 10-15 minutes and 100% from 15 minutes. Numbers/times may need to be adjusted. It could even be a smooth curve through these data points over time. This allows early game expansion to be more viable, but not giving the immediate victory to the player with more bases in the late-game.
100% agree.
they need to adress the macro aspect of the game quickly.
The fact that a player that invest in eco/expansion have so little reward compared to the one who camp in 1 base is completly unexcusable.
Thank you for doing the math for us! I feel like this game is WAY too forgiving and cater mostly to the casual players. I understand that they are trying to exand the rts community (which has always been small) while tying to retain the RTS “hardcore” player base. But wanting to hit 2 birds with 1 stone has become more and more evident that they will miss both target…
Eagerly waiting for next patch and i beleive it will be the last shot they get.
> 2533274831388058;1:
> Playing 3v3 where you can have 2 to 3 bases but can’t produce the resources to maintain them is beyond frustrating. This whole game benefits the low expanding and rushing players. I have no issue with rushing as it will always be possible in RTS games, but when base building and resource build-up is so heavily limited, you are forced with two choices when starting a game:
>
> 1. Build Marines or Jackrabbits.
> 2. Build Bases and micro-manage just to afford the expansion (without turrets) and hope you aren’t rushed.
>
> You obviously can tell which one is going to be preferred.
> I go into more detail below with some numbers that may be useful to you, but it isn’t necessary to read.
> **TL:DR: As of now, don’t expand, just build units or lose. In the future, expanding and defending should be viable early in the game.**I even did some math to show how illogical this is.
> Supply pads take 20 seconds to build, and I basically built 5 in sequence starting at the beginning of a game and nothing else. **I did not upgrade them.**1 supply pad by itself provides you ~97 resources in 20 seconds.
> 2 supply pads provide ~162 resources in 20 seconds or ~81 resources per supply pad. That is a ~16% drop in per supply pad efficiency.
> 3 supply pads provide ~219 resources in 20 seconds or ~73 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 81 or a 25% from 97.
> 4 supply pads provide ~257 resources in 20 seconds or ~64 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 73 or a 34% from 97.
> For 5 supply pads it is 300 total or ~60 per. For 6 supply pads it is 320 total or ~53 per.
>
> Upgrading one supply pad provides you ~135 resources per 20 seconds per upgraded supply pad.
> Two upgraded supply pads net you 270 resources per 20 seconds or 135 per upgraded supply pad.
> (Unrelated, but one upgraded and one regular supply pad provides you ~208 resources per 20 seconds which is almost as good as 3 regular supply pads)
> Three upgraded supply pads provide ~330 resources in 20 seconds or ~110 resources per upgraded supply pad.
>
> You can compare which combination makes the most sense for your strategy, but something you can quickly determine is that rushers who have one base with 2 upgraded supply pads (basically free since you start with 400 power) + regular supply pads and generators are producing an equivalent of at least 6 regular supply pads and are using all those resources to buy mini-bases to pump out marines and jackrabbits.
>
> If you prioritize building a new base quickly to expand, you will be putting 200 power into a new base and possibly a generator or supply pad upgrade, but you are mathematically screwed by the 3-4 minute mark because you have been spending twice as much (two bases) while only working with 1.5x the amount of resources and so are left with a bunch of worthless regular supply pads, no turrets, no units, almost no power, and against an army of rushers.
This is great. Thanks for doing the homework.
I suspected something like this was happening. But, I thought I was just fooling myself.
I guess…I…was the fool…
Excel vs Halo Wars 2. Interesting thou. I always go for generator + supply + upgrade gen + generator + upgrade supply + supply + upgrade supply. resources are flowing like crazy
Yes, you are punished for expanding. If you want 2 bases and turtle all game, perfect. If you want to explore, open up bases, you shouldn’t have to count how many generators and supply pads you have. If I want 2 bases with all resource pads, let me. Yes I know, you can build multiple bases and just put unit building on it. But the point is that if I expand and have 3 or 4 bases running full steam, I should have more resources then someone with 1 or 2 bases.
git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
The point of having more bases isn’t just to get more supplys but also more building places. You need at least 3 buildings of the same type to double pump e.g. banshees and upgrade them at the same time.
You can only do this with at least 2 bases. When I get 3 bases I even start to build raid camps in case I didn’t need them before to start upgrades. Just in case I need infantry. You also need building space for an amory.
Better macro would be good for this game. I prefer to allow people expand and gain more resources be holdin 3-4 base vs 2 base turtle.
> 2535422957995460;7:
> git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
> 2728966917066801;10:
> > 2535422957995460;7:
> > git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
>
> Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
While I dont agree with his post, there is something to be said about using Tier 1 units. Rushing to expansion to Tier up isnt exactly an amazing strategy. Getting to Tier 2/3 is supposed to take longer. Tier 1 units exist for a reason, and people should be using them, and not just rushing base expansion.
> 2600962820510266;11:
> > 2728966917066801;10:
> > > 2535422957995460;7:
> > > git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
> >
> > Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
>
> While I dont agree with his post, there is something to be said about using Tier 1 units. Rushing to expansion to Tier up isnt exactly an amazing strategy. Getting to Tier 2/3 is supposed to take longer. Tier 1 units exist for a reason, and people should be using them, and not just rushing base expansion.
So use only 3 units that sounds like a fun game rushing every single game is boring yeah if the other team has no turrets when I scout I will rush but if I can find a reason not to rush I don’t rush it is just boring to do exact same thing every game
> 2728966917066801;12:
> > 2600962820510266;11:
> > > 2728966917066801;10:
> > > > 2535422957995460;7:
> > > > git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
> > >
> > > Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
> >
> > While I dont agree with his post, there is something to be said about using Tier 1 units. Rushing to expansion to Tier up isnt exactly an amazing strategy. Getting to Tier 2/3 is supposed to take longer. Tier 1 units exist for a reason, and people should be using them, and not just rushing base expansion.
>
> So use only 3 units that sounds like a fun game rushing every single game is boring yeah if the other team has no turrets when I scout I will rush but if I can find a reason not to rush I don’t rush it is just boring to do exact same thing every game
5units… jumpbrutes, gruntsquad, suicidegrunts, engineer, and choppers.
> 2535422957995460;13:
> > 2728966917066801;12:
> > > 2600962820510266;11:
> > > > 2728966917066801;10:
> > > > > 2535422957995460;7:
> > > > > git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
> > > >
> > > > Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
> > >
> > > While I dont agree with his post, there is something to be said about using Tier 1 units. Rushing to expansion to Tier up isnt exactly an amazing strategy. Getting to Tier 2/3 is supposed to take longer. Tier 1 units exist for a reason, and people should be using them, and not just rushing base expansion.
> >
> > So use only 3 units that sounds like a fun game rushing every single game is boring yeah if the other team has no turrets when I scout I will rush but if I can find a reason not to rush I don’t rush it is just boring to do exact same thing every game
>
> 5units… jumpbrutes, gruntsquad, suicidegrunts, engineer, and choppers.
How are choppers early game have never seen them or used them
> 2728966917066801;14:
> > 2535422957995460;13:
> > > 2728966917066801;12:
> > > > 2600962820510266;11:
> > > > > 2728966917066801;10:
> > > > > > 2535422957995460;7:
> > > > > > git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
> > > >
> > > > While I dont agree with his post, there is something to be said about using Tier 1 units. Rushing to expansion to Tier up isnt exactly an amazing strategy. Getting to Tier 2/3 is supposed to take longer. Tier 1 units exist for a reason, and people should be using them, and not just rushing base expansion.
> > >
> > > So use only 3 units that sounds like a fun game rushing every single game is boring yeah if the other team has no turrets when I scout I will rush but if I can find a reason not to rush I don’t rush it is just boring to do exact same thing every game
> >
> > 5units… jumpbrutes, gruntsquad, suicidegrunts, engineer, and choppers.
>
> How are choppers early game have never seen them or used them
yeah I’ve used them early, haven’t figured them out quite yet tho, mabe 1chopper, 2engineers with some cannon faddor… like i said haven’t figured them out yet.
> 2600962820510266;11:
> > 2728966917066801;10:
> > > 2535422957995460;7:
> > > git gud in T1 op, stop rushing expos and research… git gud
> >
> > Yeah learn how to scout rush it is so hard to figure out and that is what makes you good
>
> While I dont agree with his post, there is something to be said about using Tier 1 units. Rushing to expansion to Tier up isnt exactly an amazing strategy. Getting to Tier 2/3 is supposed to take longer. Tier 1 units exist for a reason, and people should be using them, and not just rushing base expansion.
Huh? Where is it in my post did I say only use 3 units…oh right I didnt…all i stated is that people seem to think that they should be rewarded by just quick expansion and building little tier 1 units. This is a poor strategy, and should not be rewarded. If you arent building any tier 1 units, and just trying to quick expand you will lose, and thats ok imho.
Plus I count 5 units for UNSC ;p
UNSC
Snipers
Marines
Jack Rabbits
Hellbringers
Armory unit
> 2533274831388058;1:
> Playing 3v3 where you can have 2 to 3 bases but can’t produce the resources to maintain them is beyond frustrating. This whole game benefits the low expanding and rushing players. I have no issue with rushing as it will always be possible in RTS games, but when base building and resource build-up is so heavily limited, you are forced with two choices when starting a game:
>
> 1. Build Marines or Jackrabbits.
> 2. Build Bases and micro-manage just to afford the expansion (without turrets) and hope you aren’t rushed.
>
> You obviously can tell which one is going to be preferred.
> I go into more detail below with some numbers that may be useful to you, but it isn’t necessary to read.
> **TL:DR: As of now, don’t expand, just build units or lose. In the future, expanding and defending should be viable early in the game.**I even did some math to show how illogical this is.
> Supply pads take 20 seconds to build, and I basically built 5 in sequence starting at the beginning of a game and nothing else. **I did not upgrade them.**1 supply pad by itself provides you ~97 resources in 20 seconds.
> 2 supply pads provide ~162 resources in 20 seconds or ~81 resources per supply pad. That is a ~16% drop in per supply pad efficiency.
> 3 supply pads provide ~219 resources in 20 seconds or ~73 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 81 or a 25% from 97.
> 4 supply pads provide ~257 resources in 20 seconds or ~64 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 73 or a 34% from 97.
> For 5 supply pads it is 300 total or ~60 per. For 6 supply pads it is 320 total or ~53 per.
>
> Upgrading one supply pad provides you ~135 resources per 20 seconds per upgraded supply pad.
> Two upgraded supply pads net you 270 resources per 20 seconds or 135 per upgraded supply pad.
> (Unrelated, but one upgraded and one regular supply pad provides you ~208 resources per 20 seconds which is almost as good as 3 regular supply pads)
> Three upgraded supply pads provide ~330 resources in 20 seconds or ~110 resources per upgraded supply pad.
>
> You can compare which combination makes the most sense for your strategy, but something you can quickly determine is that rushers who have one base with 2 upgraded supply pads (basically free since you start with 400 power) + regular supply pads and generators are producing an equivalent of at least 6 regular supply pads and are using all those resources to buy mini-bases to pump out marines and jackrabbits.
>
> If you prioritize building a new base quickly to expand, you will be putting 200 power into a new base and possibly a generator or supply pad upgrade, but you are mathematically screwed by the 3-4 minute mark because you have been spending twice as much (two bases) while only working with 1.5x the amount of resources and so are left with a bunch of worthless regular supply pads, no turrets, no units, almost no power, and against an army of rushers.
I agree about diminishing returns but expanding early game is viable? Just play atriox XD
Also every stratagy is supposed to have a counter- expanding has the rushing counter. That’s how it should be
> 2533274820642782;17:
> > 2533274831388058;1:
> > Playing 3v3 where you can have 2 to 3 bases but can’t produce the resources to maintain them is beyond frustrating. This whole game benefits the low expanding and rushing players. I have no issue with rushing as it will always be possible in RTS games, but when base building and resource build-up is so heavily limited, you are forced with two choices when starting a game:
> >
> > 1. Build Marines or Jackrabbits.
> > 2. Build Bases and micro-manage just to afford the expansion (without turrets) and hope you aren’t rushed.
> >
> > You obviously can tell which one is going to be preferred.
> > I go into more detail below with some numbers that may be useful to you, but it isn’t necessary to read.
> > **TL:DR: As of now, don’t expand, just build units or lose. In the future, expanding and defending should be viable early in the game.**I even did some math to show how illogical this is.
> > Supply pads take 20 seconds to build, and I basically built 5 in sequence starting at the beginning of a game and nothing else. **I did not upgrade them.**1 supply pad by itself provides you ~97 resources in 20 seconds.
> > 2 supply pads provide ~162 resources in 20 seconds or ~81 resources per supply pad. That is a ~16% drop in per supply pad efficiency.
> > 3 supply pads provide ~219 resources in 20 seconds or ~73 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 81 or a 25% from 97.
> > 4 supply pads provide ~257 resources in 20 seconds or ~64 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 73 or a 34% from 97.
> > For 5 supply pads it is 300 total or ~60 per. For 6 supply pads it is 320 total or ~53 per.
> >
> > Upgrading one supply pad provides you ~135 resources per 20 seconds per upgraded supply pad.
> > Two upgraded supply pads net you 270 resources per 20 seconds or 135 per upgraded supply pad.
> > (Unrelated, but one upgraded and one regular supply pad provides you ~208 resources per 20 seconds which is almost as good as 3 regular supply pads)
> > Three upgraded supply pads provide ~330 resources in 20 seconds or ~110 resources per upgraded supply pad.
> >
> > You can compare which combination makes the most sense for your strategy, but something you can quickly determine is that rushers who have one base with 2 upgraded supply pads (basically free since you start with 400 power) + regular supply pads and generators are producing an equivalent of at least 6 regular supply pads and are using all those resources to buy mini-bases to pump out marines and jackrabbits.
> >
> > If you prioritize building a new base quickly to expand, you will be putting 200 power into a new base and possibly a generator or supply pad upgrade, but you are mathematically screwed by the 3-4 minute mark because you have been spending twice as much (two bases) while only working with 1.5x the amount of resources and so are left with a bunch of worthless regular supply pads, no turrets, no units, almost no power, and against an army of rushers.
>
> I agree about diminishing returns but expanding early game is viable? Just play atriox XD
>
> Also every stratagy is supposed to have a counter- expanding has the rushing counter. That’s how it should be
But rushing beats everything in this game
> 2728966917066801;18:
> > 2533274820642782;17:
> > > 2533274831388058;1:
> > > Playing 3v3 where you can have 2 to 3 bases but can’t produce the resources to maintain them is beyond frustrating. This whole game benefits the low expanding and rushing players. I have no issue with rushing as it will always be possible in RTS games, but when base building and resource build-up is so heavily limited, you are forced with two choices when starting a game:
> > >
> > > 1. Build Marines or Jackrabbits.
> > > 2. Build Bases and micro-manage just to afford the expansion (without turrets) and hope you aren’t rushed.
> > >
> > > You obviously can tell which one is going to be preferred.
> > > I go into more detail below with some numbers that may be useful to you, but it isn’t necessary to read.
> > > **TL:DR: As of now, don’t expand, just build units or lose. In the future, expanding and defending should be viable early in the game.**I even did some math to show how illogical this is.
> > > Supply pads take 20 seconds to build, and I basically built 5 in sequence starting at the beginning of a game and nothing else. **I did not upgrade them.**1 supply pad by itself provides you ~97 resources in 20 seconds.
> > > 2 supply pads provide ~162 resources in 20 seconds or ~81 resources per supply pad. That is a ~16% drop in per supply pad efficiency.
> > > 3 supply pads provide ~219 resources in 20 seconds or ~73 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 81 or a 25% from 97.
> > > 4 supply pads provide ~257 resources in 20 seconds or ~64 resources per supply pad. That is a ~12% drop from 73 or a 34% from 97.
> > > For 5 supply pads it is 300 total or ~60 per. For 6 supply pads it is 320 total or ~53 per.
> > >
> > > Upgrading one supply pad provides you ~135 resources per 20 seconds per upgraded supply pad.
> > > Two upgraded supply pads net you 270 resources per 20 seconds or 135 per upgraded supply pad.
> > > (Unrelated, but one upgraded and one regular supply pad provides you ~208 resources per 20 seconds which is almost as good as 3 regular supply pads)
> > > Three upgraded supply pads provide ~330 resources in 20 seconds or ~110 resources per upgraded supply pad.
> > >
> > > You can compare which combination makes the most sense for your strategy, but something you can quickly determine is that rushers who have one base with 2 upgraded supply pads (basically free since you start with 400 power) + regular supply pads and generators are producing an equivalent of at least 6 regular supply pads and are using all those resources to buy mini-bases to pump out marines and jackrabbits.
> > >
> > > If you prioritize building a new base quickly to expand, you will be putting 200 power into a new base and possibly a generator or supply pad upgrade, but you are mathematically screwed by the 3-4 minute mark because you have been spending twice as much (two bases) while only working with 1.5x the amount of resources and so are left with a bunch of worthless regular supply pads, no turrets, no units, almost no power, and against an army of rushers.
> >
> > I agree about diminishing returns but expanding early game is viable? Just play atriox XD
> >
> > Also every stratagy is supposed to have a counter- expanding has the rushing counter. That’s how it should be
>
> But rushing beats everything in this game
its called scouting and countering. Rushes aren’t auto win.
scouting and countering, the keys too victory.