Redundancy, and ret-cons, a growing issue.

Long read ahead, and no TL;DR as my point wouldn’t get across that way.

Has anyone else noticed this growing pattern in the Halo franchise of creating things without justification just for the sake of creating things?

This was a pattern that dates all the way back to Halo 2. And back then it was in some ways understandable due to release date time constraints, and possibly some of the original Xbox’s limitations, or simply ideas that weren’t thought all the way through before implementation. But to start my point, I need to explain something that Halo CE got entirely right:

In Halo CE, there wasn’t a single aspect of the game that was added for the sake of having more content. Every aspect of the game existed to serve a unique purpose, whether that was plot elements, weapons, characters, vehicles etc. Each and every one was unique, even the ones designed to fit similar roles. Probably the closest thing in the game to a pair of redundantly similar elements was the Plasma Rifle and the Assault Rifle, which existed for the understandable reason of giving the Covenant a basic weapon to fill an Assault Rifle-type of role.

But Bungie even managed to make these two weapons radically different in terms of gameplay. Not just in the way Plasma flies through the air, or the idea that it is more damaging to Shields than bullets, but less damaging to health. But in terms of the actual way the weapon worked when you fired it. The Assault Rifle was completely inaccurate, shoot a wall with the thing and your bullets go absolutely everywhere. Even when firing in 3-6 round bursts it felt like you weren’t going to land many hits if you weren’t standing face to face with the enemy. Then fire the Plasma Rifle, and notice the difference. For starters, it’s rate of fire mechanic was completely different. The AR started with spray, and always just sprayed. The Plasma Rifle on the other hand, started with a lower rate of fire, then picked up over time. On top of that, finger tapping allowed PERFECTLY ACCURATE semi-automatic plasma shots. And to further separate the two weapons, the Plasma bolts had a stunning effect, causing a player hit by them to slow down in terms of movement AND the Plasma Rifle dealt double damage on headshots against unshielded enemies (don’t believe that? load it up and test it, it’s true).

The final result being that the Plasma Rifle, despite being an Automatic weapon like the AR, required a completely different skillset and strategy to use. And these were the two most similar weapons in the entire game.

So now let’s delve into a few Ret-Cons to equipment that was made in Halo 2, as well as some completely unnecessary additions:

I’ll start Halo 2 off by making the note that Halo 2 added a lot of great, unique, and very important elements to the Halo universe. The Drones, Enforcers, and Brutes added some new enemies to fight, both of which created a new experience. Characters like Admiral Hood and Miranda Keyes weren’t just carbon-copies of now dead characters Captain Keyes and Foehammer, (though they both lacked the character development and likeable personalities of the characters they effectively replace). And several important weapons such as the Battle Rifle, Energy Sword, and Sentinel Beam (along with some others) were added to the sandbox to help flesh it out. Even adding Elites to Multiplayer was more interesting than redundant, as players could now choose to identify with a separate faction of the universe (though it would have been nice to spawn Elites with Carbines instead of BRs… kind of a missed opportunity for awesome).

But Halo 2 was the first in the franchise to create for the sake of creating. And this led to redundancy, and the first unfortunate ret-con of a weapon we’ve already talked about.

So it was clear in Halo 2 that with Dual Wielding, the weapons needed to be rearranged a little bit. The inclusion and modification of weapons like the SMG and Magnum made sense to squeeze in to the new mechanic. On the bright side, Bungie passed off the change to the Magnum, as a separate model of a pistol. Which made perfect sense. However, this also lead to the butchering of a couple of the Covenant weapons, with no explanation as to why they changed so radically. These weapons being the Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, and Needler, ALL 3 of the Covenant weapons you could use in Halo CE, were changed. And in a few ways for the worse.

The Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol completely lost their ability to kill a player. The Plasma Rifle turned into more of a Plasma-SMG, they even made it smaller fictionally to fit in a single Spartan hand. And the Plasma Pistol’s Semi-Automatic function was just ruined, there was no point in firing it normally. It was a pretty sad day for those weapons. The Needler became something of a joke in Halo 2. More useful for being funny looking Maracas when they ran out of ammo. (Well outside of being a beastly anti-brute weapon in the Campaign at least). And what’s more, was these weapons weren’t just “a different model” they were legitimately ret-conned. We were expected to believe these were the same awesome guns from Halo CE. And while this is a less recognized ret-con, the Fuel Rod Cannon was also completely reworked in Halo 2. It changed from an awesome mortar cannon in Halo CE, to a Semi-Automatic Rocket Launcher (which helps bring me to a point of redundancy later).

Well, ret-cons to weapons aside. We then also got a few completely redundant weapons, and even a pointless vehicle clone, added to the sandbox. Now it is understandable that Bungie was trying to flesh out the Covenant weapon palette to fill more roles than Halo CE. And there are shining examples of them creating completely different equivalents out there. Such as the CE Plasma Rifle mentioned above, or the Energy Sword. But then we get weapons such as the Beam Rifle, the Beam Rifle can be described as such: “It’s a Sniper Rifle, but it shoots faster, and overheats instead of reloading” Those are literally the only two differences between this weapon, and the Sniper Rifle. Another redundant add was the Brute Plasma Rifle. It honestly never needed to exist, heck, I’d almost have liked it better if they kept the Plasma Rifle as a big Rifle-like weapon like it was in CE. And made the “Brute Plasma SMG” Which was exactly what the Brute Plasma Rifle is in Halo 2. Instead we get “Plasma SMG ret-con” and “Red Plasma SMG ret-con with a higher rate of fire”. This weapon did nothing, not one thing to make the sandbox better, not after they already changed the Plasma Rifle.

Then when it comes to that vehicle mentioned before. I of course talk about the Spectre. The Spectre is a Covenant Warthog. LITERALLY. There isn’t one thing about the Spectre that is different enough from the Chaingun Warthog to merit being a vehicle of it’s own, and don’t feed me that “It boosts and can strafe” crap, because honestly if that’s the case how is it different from a Ghost? On top of that, it goes against the now more consistent than ever, but still present before vehicle pattern of UNSC = Teamwork, Covenant = Single Pilot.

Halo 2 started a pattern. And it continued with each passing game.

At this point you’ve read the gist and I’m running low on characters, so I’m going to summarize the ret-cons and redundant additions to Halo’s 3, Reach, and 4 in another, shorter post. Then conclude.

I’m going to rewrite this post once I have time. Look below for a somewhat long summary of the point.

Just to speak on what you have brought up, some of the changes made to the weapons in Halo 2 were done more for the sake of balancing them out for the MP, since the game was a major Live title. Certainly some of them didnt need to happen, but they did.

As for the Spectre, the only reason I can think of for them making it, was just to give the Arbiter’s campaign missions a similar weapon set that you had while playing as Chief. I wont try to justify it as being different cause of the standard Covie features, but I would say it did have a role cause prior to that, you just had a light scout vehicle, an aircraft, and an unusable mortar tank. Before the Spectre, the Covenant really did not have anything that could fill in the role that the Spectre did.

> Just to speak on what you have brought up, some of the changes made to the weapons in Halo 2 were done more for the sake of balancing them out for the MP, since the game was a major Live title. Certainly some of them didnt need to happen, but they did.
>
> As for the Spectre, the only reason I can think of for them making it, was just to give the Arbiter’s campaign missions a similar weapon set that you had while playing as Chief. I wont try to justify it as being different cause of the standard Covie features, but I would say it did have a role cause prior to that, you just had a light scout vehicle, an aircraft, and an unusable mortar tank. Before the Spectre, the Covenant really did not have anything that could fill in the role that the Spectre did.

I fail to see how the Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, or Needler were better balanced in Halo 2 than they were in Halo CE.

The Plasma Rifle was fine the way it was. The Plasma Pistol was actually made into a broken overpowered weapon with it’s insane overcharge tracking, and useless on it’s own because of it’s inability to deal noticeable damage to health no matter what fire mode you used. And the Needler, yeah it was improved. But Halo 3 proved that Dual Wield and a complete rework wasn’t the best way to do it. Just giving it’s projectiles better tracking was all it needed.

The main point is, if you are going to make a weapon that behaved completely different, then make a completely different weapon. If you are going to make a weapon that behaves exactly the same, DON’T make a different weapon.

In Halo 2, they could have just made a new Covenant SMG instead of completely reworking the Plasma Rifle. And in Halo Reach they could have just made the Plasma Rifle as good as it was in CE instead of making the Repeater, the issue taken to the next level in Halo 4 when they created the Storm Rifle instead of just using the Plasma Rifle or Repeater. There was zero reason to create it.

It’s the same with the Brute Shot/Concussion Rifle. First they ret-con the Brute Shot to behave completely different. Then they remove the Brute Shot, and replace it with the exact same type of gun, reskinned to the Concussion Rifle. So now not only is there no weapon in the game that’s even remotely similar to the Halo 2 Brute Shot. But the Halo 3 Brute Shot is STILL IN THE GAME, and is instead just the Concussion Rifle. It’s more unnecessary ret-conning and redundant adding.

You are grossly confusing gameplay elements with retcons.

I think the Railgun is a great addition to the game, you can do a lot with it mini-game wise.

And I disagree with most everything you said about vehicle additions/changes. Some were for balance issues, others for fun. (Mongoose WEEEEE!!!)

I also don’t think there is anything wrong with the weapon changes from 2 to 3. Needler and Brute shot were balance issues. Everything else, FUN!

I do agree with you on some things, like the fact that the the concussion rifle is just a Brute shot re-skinned (lame) and the storm rifle is just the plasma repeater re-skinned (even lamer)

Overall, I don’t think you are coming at this from the perspective of someone making a game. There needs to be added elements to make it fun, and if they are unbalanced, they can’t stay like they are. You can’t just have everything stay the same, or it gets boring.

Besides… spikers are the bee knees to duel-wield.

> Mongoose (It’s a tiny Warthog without a turret. Sure Rocket Race wouldn’t have existed without it. But honestly, it can’t do a single thing the Warthog isn’t better at.)

There are tons of things a mongoose can do that a warthog either cannot or sucks at. For starters you can pretty much take it into any hole you can walk into, it’s more maneuverable and -most importantly- it’s more fun.

I read the rest of your post and here are the things I disagree with you on.

The chopper was the worst vehicle ever added into the sandbox. It utterly dominated against small vehicles and ruined vehicle gameplay in virtually every map it was included in. A better and more balanced version of this anti vehicle niche it filled was the revenant – a vehicle that actually required some micronym of skill to use (and yes I made up a word).

The Halo 3 Brute shot was the most glorious weapon ever. The ability to launch vehicles through the air – including vehicles that you were in- gives it immortal status of awesomeness in my book.

Gameplay is more important than cannon when it comes to simple things like the rockets not having homing ability in Halo 3. You had a missile pod anyway, you don’t need an OP rocket launcher.

The Spiker is a weak SMG and for players that like the challenge of playing the game differently its absence from Halo 4 is quite annoying. It fit the roll of super mega fun SMG for dorks +12, and as a dork myself I shall defend its honor with my life.

There was a strong following of players that used the prowler because of it’s immense uselessness. Vehicles that suck like this should be encouraged in halo. They bring out the creativity of the community and create layers of depth to the game by allowing people to do something different and novel from time to time. Quit trying to suck the fun out of games because you find it to be not powerfull enough to suit your needs.

On the mongoose - I have nothing nice to say to you at all for insulting my overall tool of destruction threw 12 years of playing halo.

Falcon – I agree with you, great addition. Where in hell is it in Halo 4 >=(

Skirmishers- Jackals did not move even close to as fast as these little -Yoinks!-. They may have looked similar and been related to the jackals but they played nothing like the jackals at all. Calling them Jackals is just racism.

Rocket hog is not really new in Halo Reach. While it was not in Halo 3 it was in Halo 2.

-Blam!- the boltshot.

Covenant changed for the worse in the everything else category not the aesthetics. I couldn’t care too much about how they look but the AI just is not there anymore. I could beat legendary on Halo 4 with a hand tied behind my back. Things got too easy in this game.

The focus rifle - if brought back - does not need a buff. The weapon, if anything, needs to be knocked down a peg.

The Railgun is really fun to use and it’s not a miniature Spartan Laser.

I don’t like where this thread is headed at all. You are asking for things you simply don’t use to be taken out of the game. There are strong followings for lots of the things you mention in this thread including pretty much every single thing I find fun about this game.

I could have taken this seriously if OP kept to being semi serious, or at least taking gameplay into account with some of the changes that he brought up, but the second post really just kinda fell apart from there.

Halo 3’s Brute weapons had lore reasons for being in the game (ignoring possible redundancy). The Brutes were being allowed to use their own tech to suit their somewhat savage way of fighting as being up close and personal was much more prefered. Spiker having a massive dual bayonet gave them a weapon that was dual purposed and a workable automatic. (Also replaced the Red PR). The Brute Shot in 2 was akin to a rocket launcher. It wrecked nearly everything in the game. The damage being reduced was not a bad thing as it was another dual purpose weapon, unless that giant blade was decoration only. The Mauler is where I will agree, if only cause it was made for gameplay alone.

Now to address where things went very wrong. Trying to defend weapons that did not effectively replace weapons, or even properly fill the role, such as the Focus Rifle. That thing was not a sniper, nor should it be referred as one. It was an ineffective version of the Sentinel Beam, and rightfully should not have been in the game. The Beam Rifle was a proper sniper, albeit with its own problems with tuning in 4

By your logic in regards to Forerunner weapons, Prometheans should have been gimped by not giving them at least a basic weapon set outside of generally non threatening weapons. Legendary being the only time the Light Rifle, Boltshot, and Suppressor are any sort of threatening.

The Railgun is NOT a SpLaser. Not in the least. One is anti-vehicle and the other is anti-infantry. They do have very specific roles.

The Storm Rifle replaced the Repeater and the Plasma Rifle outright. Neither weapons makes an appearance in 4.

And the SAW hate, well if you think that having a legitimate LMG is the same as the AR, I recommend you bow out now if you dont have a good flame shield. OP may have had an alright start, but I think he lost his mind after hitting the second half.

> I don’t like where this thread is headed at all. You are asking for things you simply don’t use to be taken out of the game. There are strong followings for lots of the things you mention in this thread including pretty much every single thing I find fun about this game.

The point isn’t removing things from the game because they go unused. The point is to get 343i to stop cloning the same weapons/vehicles over and over.

Your point on the Prowler being useless is countered by the fact that it is literally a Brute Warthog. It has the exact same functionality AND playstyle. If they wanted to make a new Brute vehicle that “competed” with the Warthog, they should have gotten creative and made something unique. Even if that unique thing wasn’t exactly good, it would have been unique. I don’t hate on things like the Plasma Launcher that goes ignored pretty much everywhere except Hemmorhage. Because it’s a unique weapon.

And changing weapons slightly for balance makes sense, but completely altering the function of a weapon to where it’s pretty much unrecognizable? Does not. There is not one thing the Plasma Rifle in CE has in common with the Plasma Rifle in Halo 2-Reach aside from aesthetics.

When Bungie made the Spiker, it wouldn’t have been too hard for them to make it unlike any other automatic. Maybe they could have made it have a fairly low Rate of Fire, but high-impact/damaging shots? Instead of getting creative and trying to make a weapon that stood out, they took the low road, and made a projectile-based SMG… It really wasn’t worth making a whole other weapon over. Especially when they already made the also redundant Brute Plasma Rifle to fill the exact same Canonical role.

The Storm Rifle? They literally had to make up a Canon EXCUSE for creating it because otherwise there was literally no point. Beefing up the Plasma Repeater (which was already a redundant clone of the AR to fill the role that was ALREADY filled by the Plasma Rifle) wouldn’t have affected the end game in ANY WAY. And the universe wouldn’t be so cluttered with carbon-copy weapons as it is now.

It’s change for the sake of pointless change. “Balance” didn’t lead to the Plasma Rifle being completely ret-conned when the situation could have called for simply a new weapon. That was just a pointless adjustment made to a weapon that was once awesome and NOT imbalanced in the slightest.

The Needler? Yeah I suppose it could have used some rebalancing after Halo CE. But did they need to change it so radically every single game? It has never been remotely similar to it’s previous iteration 2 games in a row, not once. And completely re-designing a weapon just to rebalance it is a bad way to go about it, when instead they could just alter the version of it that already exists.

Yes, my second post was a mess, it was because I was really tired when I was writing it. But the main point of the thread is that making radical adjustments to weapons in the name of Balance should honestly just merit an entirely new weapon being made. And at the same time, making a weapon that works almost exactly the same as an already existing weapon. Or to fill the role left behind by a weapon that was radically changed already, is just lazily throwing “new” content at us while ultimately wasting valuable game development time that could have been better used making something that was ACTUALLY NEW.

Yes, I’d like to see a Promethean equivalent of the roles filled by the human Sniper, Rocket Launcher, and Shotgun. But literally cloning the weapon and making a slight adjustment to it is NOT different enough to merit the time that was used to make an entirely new gun. The Beam Rifle DMR, NR, Plasma Repeater, Concussion Rifle, Storm Rifle, Spiker etc. Are all examples of weapons that were designed for basically no reason. OR at the very least that could have been made ALOT more different from the weapons they were designed to either replace or counterpart. The Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Focus Rifle, Plasma Launcher etc. Are examples of weapons that fill the role they are meant to fill (counter parting specific UNSC weapons, or replacing removed weapons) without being carbon copies of them.

My point is, when you add something to the game. Or change something. You should do it because the game needs it. And when you change something to the point that it’s unrecognizable compared to it’s previous iteration, and is nothing like anything else your game already has. THEN you should consider making something new.

> Yes, I’d like to see a Promethean equivalent of the roles filled by the human Sniper, Rocket Launcher, and Shotgun. But literally cloning the weapon and making a slight adjustment to it is NOT different enough to merit the time that was used to make an entirely new gun. The Beam Rifle DMR, NR, Plasma Repeater, Concussion Rifle, Storm Rifle, Spiker etc. Are all examples of weapons that were designed for basically no reason. OR at the very least that could have been made ALOT more different from the weapons they were designed to either replace or counterpart. The Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Focus Rifle, Plasma Launcher etc. Are examples of weapons that fill the role they are meant to fill (counter parting specific UNSC weapons, or replacing removed weapons) without being carbon copies of them.

Go home. You’re drunk.

There is NOTHING about the Scattershot, or the Binary Rifle, or the Incineration Cannon that is even close to being a minor tweak. Ricocheting pellets make the Scattershot into a shotgun that is an actual threat that moving around just doesnt deal with. Its a close quarters weapon made to abuse close quarters by making it so that you dont get away from a shot solely by moving aside or getting into cover. The Binary Rifle is literally a one shot “I Win” gun against anything non-Promethean. It is supposed to be an actual one shot, one kill gun. That is something that both the Beam Rifle and the Sniper Rifle are not. The Incineration Cannon is NOT just another Rocket Launcher, or did it change that the Rockets suddenly spawned cluster bombs after the initial blast that greatly expand on the blast radius each shot has.

Your bias is showing. It would be a very good idea to be quiet and not lash out at people for telling you that you are wrong and why.