Redesigning Abilities For Halo 6

Community General Discussion
1

Spartan Abilities are obviously a huge matter of division in the Halo community. People scream “Death to mobility!” on one side or “Keep up with the times!” on the other. I’m not a “New Era” Halo fan and not a “#MakeHaloSlowAgain” fundamentalist, either. I want to find a balanced solution. If you’re closed-minded, obsessed with popular negativity, & only interested in looking back at “the good ol’ days,” please don’t waste time commenting here. This thread is for fans interested in properly evolving the series.

I admit these are personal opinions, but I honestly think my view is balanced and could please more people that lean toward 1 side than either sticking with what we have now or removing abilities altogether. I like them in theory, but want them adjusted to be more akin to the pace & style of previous Halo games. I’ve been a Halo fan since CE and I find them to be a fitting evolution of Halo if done right.

Here are some ideas to improve Spartan abilities**:**

  • longer time to reach top sprint speed. <— I think that one’s important to help with other issues like Spartan Charge.Nerf Spartan Charge. It’s not a bad mechanic, but way too powerful in its current state. It has way too much range, too much gravitation towards the enemy, and does too much damage. It should be useful as a way to rush in for a stealth kill from the back or to finish somebody off who is already weak. It should NOT be usable as a way to assault a fully shielded player and then easily finish them off with a couple of rounds from your AR.
    Other ways to reduce its dominance:
  1. stun the user for a moment if they miss while they regain their footing,
  2. impact damage on the user if the victim had full shields and thus survived the initial collision
  3. increase radar range
  4. decrease the knockback distance so the victim can thrust forward and retaliate with a melee on their damaged attacker if they survive
  • I really, really like Thruster Pack and think it fits in great with Halo, but I wouldn’t be opposed to slightly nerfing it so you can’t clear such massive jumps with it when using it with sprint-jumping, or perhaps by linking its cooldown with other abilities that use them, like Stabilize or even Sprint.
  • decrease the AOE radius on the Ground Pound so it requires something closer to a direct hit and is thus even more satisfying to get kills with.
  • Slide is fine. Maybe even use with a well-time Thruster for extended slide distance. :slight_smile:
  • Stabilize is fine, but I see it as unnecessary. I’m okay with it staying if it does.
  • Smart Link is kind of a cool-looking animation. But it should NOT increase the effective RANGE of a weapon! I’d also prefer no accuracy buffs.
  • Clamber I’m totally fine with. It’s a joke when people try to say it somehow removed some super skillful crouch-jumping aspect of Halo. Btw you can still crouch-jump, it’s still useful, and I use it all the time in Halo 5. There are places you can crouch-jump to that you can’t clamber to. There are also still skill-jumps in Halo 5. Clamber hasn’t hurt anything. [Edit: someone pointed out that it doesn’t add real value to the game. That’s a good point I can grant; I only disagree that it hurts the game. I’m okay with it going, but even if it does I’d still like to see the incarnation below]I would like to see Clamber evolved. 2 ideas I’ve long had for it are:
  1. a vault over low objects (like in Battlefield) if you are at top sprint speed, so you can maintain speed & stay low.
  2. a vertical wall-step to reach a high ledge if you time Clamber/“Vault” right while approaching the wall below it at top sprint speed.

I’d like to hear thoughts on these or other ideas to better balance & reign in Spartan Abilities, which I don’t think are going anywhere. It appears that most people like them in some form, or like some of them. I think 343 should focus on making them better for all players, rather than removing them to please a few while ticking off a bunch of others.

2

No compromise. If 343i tries to make a game for everyone then they make a game for no one. I don’t like enhanced mobility but if they’re going to do it then they need to make the game the best it can be.

3

> 2535431455589305;2:
> No compromise. If 343i tries to make a game for everyone then they make a game for no one. I don’t like enhanced mobility but if they’re going to do it then they need to make the game the best it can be.

I agree it should be the best it can be, which is precisely what I proposed. These are ideas that would make Spartan abilities better, which keeps them for the many people who like them and minimizes any problems people who don’t like them have with them. I was hoping to get comments that were likewise on that path of constructive brainstorming.

4

> 2533274805105579;3:
> > 2535431455589305;2:
> > No compromise. If 343i tries to make a game for everyone then they make a game for no one. I don’t like enhanced mobility but if they’re going to do it then they need to make the game the best it can be.
>
> I agree it should be the best it can be, which is precisely what I proposed. These are ideas that would make Spartan abilities better, which keeps them for the many people who like them and minimizes any problems people who don’t like them have with them. I was hoping to get comments that were likewise on that path of constructive brainstorming.

I’m going to be honest with you. They can’t make any changes to them that I’ll ever like. I just don’t like them. I don’t like this style of Halo. If they’re going to do enhanced mobility then make the game for those who like enhanced mobility. Because there is nothing 343i could do to make me and many others like this style of gameplay.

5

I’m just going to link what I said in another thread concerning the issue of Spartan Abilities: [ Link - 2nd to last on this page ]

I appreciate the attempt to compromise, and I could delve further into the issue if you want, but ultimately the only addition 343 has made to gameplay that I would be happy to see return is seat-switching in vehicles.

6

> 2533274900668879;5:
> I’m just going to link what I said in another thread concerning the issue of Spartan Abilities: [ Link - 2nd to last on this page ]I appreciate the attempt to compromise, and I could delve further into the issue if you want, but ultimately the only addition 343 has made to gameplay that I would be happy to see return is seat-switching in vehicles.

Man I love seat-switching. One of my favorite things 343 has done.

7

> 2533274805105579;1:
> -Clamber I’m totally fine with. It’s a joke when people try to say it somehow removed some super skillful crouch-jumping aspect of Halo, I’m sorry. By the way, you can still crouch-jump, it’s still useful, and I use it all the time in Halo 5. There are places you can crouch-jump to that you can’t clamber to. There are also still skill-jumps in Halo 5. Clamber hasn’t hurt anything.

Either you, or the people you’ve discussed Clamber with, are missing the point. It’s not that crouch jumping, in vacuum, is some difficult skill to learn. It’s a basic skill that everyone should be competent at.

The problems with Clamber have little to do with crouch jumping, and all to do with timing and accuracy. The reason why some jumps are difficult and others are not is because those jumps require the player to jump jump in a short time frame, or jump at a very specific spot. With Clamber, this difficulty is removed in most feasible jumps, because as soon as the player is near enough to a ledge, they can just automatically climb up.

And we could spend the next hour going through examples of hypothetical jumps where what I said is not, jumps that are so long or so high that there’s a very specific spot you need to hit in order to come to within Clamber distance from the ledge. But such jumps are either so high, or so long that it’s not feasible to build them into normal sized maps, and due to the Clamber animation, these jumps would also slow the player down. So, you will not see such jumps in Halo 5 that are there by design. All you will see are jumps that are either well within the reach of Clamber, or jumps that, in all likelihood, weren’t designed to be jumps (and often require more than just Clamber to execute).

Concentrating solely on the difficult jumps, however, is also missing the point. The reality is that in normal gameplay, players miscalculate jumps that aren’t exceptionally difficult every now and then, and in the past when that happened, they faced the consequences of their failure. Clamber allows players to redeem their mistakes, which means that they are punished less for their failures. So, as much as you might be eager to point at the few skill-jumps in Halo 5 that require the player the slide, jump, thrust, stabilize while crouching in mid-air, and sacrifice a goat, the reality is that 99.99% of all jumps are not those sacrifice-a-goat-type jumps, but are bog standard not-particularly-difficult jumps, and it’s these jumps where Clamber has the most effect on the difficulty of jumping.

Ultimately, Clamber allows players to execute jumps that are longer and higher, than they would be able to without Clamber, and it allows them to redeem mistakes on shorter jumps. As such, Clamber does nothing, but make all jumps easier than they would be without Clamber. That’s not saying it removes all skill from jumping, but that it makes jumps easier across the board.

Clamber doesn’t introduce anything meaningful to gameplay. It doesn’t add new skills in place of the difficulty it removes. Its sole action is to make the game easier (or, if not, to make every jump require a slow climbing animation). So, rather than asking why should Clamber not be in the game, why not ask: why should it be in the game? As someone who believes that a game mechanic shouldn’t be implemented unless it adds a significant amount of depth to gameplay, why should I endorse Clamber?

> 2533274805105579;1:
> There are places you can crouch-jump to that you can’t clamber to.

Can you give me an example of such a jump?

This Clamber issue was just something I needed to get off my chest. When it comes to your other ideas, and Spartan Abilities in general, I’m equally unenthralled. Spartan Abilities is a bunch of mechanics that are all show and no go. They don’t introduce many new skills to the game, they have a degree of redundancy with abilities like Slide and Thruster Pack having similar roles, and there are generally far too many of them.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s back to the drawing board with the whole concept. Rather than trying to design a bunch of different mechanics that do little on their own, and only slightly more when combined, time would be much more well spent designing a single mechanic that is versatile (though not too much so), and then taking the time to integrate that properly to gameplay, and in particular to map design. Although I have to stress that even when it comes to the basic movement mechanics of classic Halo, there’s still a significant amount of unexplored territory, so rather than jumping head-on to work with new mechanics, it’s worth first ensuring that you’ve squeezed everything out of the old ones.

8

I personally think they should scrap the idea of universal abilities being the ‘4th pillar’, simplify the controls, in favour of technology/ gadget: Pick ups! A new sandbox element. Something akin to equipment but better. As for salvaging anything from H5 Abilities, hmm maybe some but I’d probably say it would be better just to leave most of it behind.

Slide- Yeah ok. But I’d like to see it as being more of a universal thing: A during the crouch animation there is a small fraction of a second where friction is minimal to null sort of thing, and as such if you have momentum when you crouch you will slide, simple. And this will happen regardless of whether or not you are sprinting. No slide speed boost either, if you want a boost during your slide you should have to combine it with a thrust. Slide should just be part of a boarder depth provided by being able to crouch whilst performing other actions, crouching whilst jumping, crouching whilst moving, crouching whilst jetpacking around whatever.

The Thruster Pack - It would be strange just to retcon out thrusters now they’re here, though they were just shoe horned in without any real explanation. Maybe just reduce them to what they are supposed to be, thrusters designed for zero G. Allow players a very limited ability to perform curve jumps and the like in normal 1G atmospheric movement, But in zero G they provide significant Air control Akin to that you get in Lawbreakers. For proper ‘Thrust Dodging’ I think such an ability should be a pick up. If 343 went in the pick ups direction you could have multiple mobility gadgets: Grapple, Blink, a Jetpack that could also give you a speed boost in the horizontal direction.

Charge- Scrap it. Replace it with maybe a slower ROF melee whilst sprinting, that keeps you in 1st person, and a knock back mechanic proportional to your momentum.

Stabilise- Scrap it. You shouldn’t have to be zoomed in to perform such an action. Jetpack hover is better.

Ground pound- Scrap it. It’s not that it’s particularly unbalanced, balance is not the primary thing I look for in a new mechanic anyway, I just don’t feel like it fits. Maybe replace it with some manner of collision damage that can occur when two Spartans bump at high speeds. That way if you fall, thrust downward then melee someone just before you land on them you do extra damage because of your momentum. melee damage + bump damage.

Clamber- Err this one is tricky because I did prefer trick jumping with the old mechanics. But it is an addition I’m more accepting of than most. Mechanically I would prefer it if it didn’t ‘latch on’ so much and it acted more of a second ‘half jump’ if a ledge is close enough; Subject to any momentum you may have entering the clamber. Simply because I find ‘latch on’ mechanics kind of clunky. And it would be cool if you could kick away from the ledge not just climb up and over. I’m pro vaulting as well if clamber is already in the game since it’s basically just a clamber from a position when your feet are still on the ground. Maybe if you combine Clamber with crouch you could vault over something without the significant up and down motion and maintain your momentum.

Sprint- Minor speed boost similar to what it is now, no shield charge delay, little to no weapon draw delay, make it more momentum based, load footsteps, Keep it simple, don’t mess around, or get rid of it.

Smart scope- The closer it is mechanically to the originals the better. A new aesthetic is fine. Not a fan of melee weapons getting a lunge boost and not a fan of Automatics or the Shotgun getting an accuracy boost when zoomed.

That’s my take on it.

9

Halo 5 was the compromise and it failed spectacularly. As much as I would love to see Spartan Abilities return to Halo 6, I think it would be a huge and deadly mistake. Too many people hate them and too many people are prepared to leave the franchise if they return, which will result in the actual death of the Halo franchise (as in the total stop of production of halo games)

10

> 2533274805105579;1:
> Spartan Abilities are obviously a huge matter of controversy and division in the Halo community.
> People scream “Death to mobility!” on one side or “Keep up with the times!” on the other.
> I’m not a “New Era” Halo fan and I’m not a “#MakeHaloSlowAgain” fundamentalist, either.
> I want to find a compromise, as much of a happy medium as we can.
> I admit that these are my personal opinions as to what would make great Halo gamepay, but I honestly think my view lies somewhere in the middle that could please more people that lean toward one extreme than either sticking with what we have now or removing abilities altogether. I like abilities in theory, but I want them adjusted. I want something more akin to the pace and precision of previous Halo games. I’ve been a Halo fan since the very beginning and I find them to be a fitting evolution of Halo IF done right.
> Here’s how I’d do Spartan abilities if I was working on the game:
> - A slightly narrower gap between base running speed and Sprint speed- longer time to reach top sprint speed. <— I think that one’s VERY important and could help with other issues like Spartan Charge
> - Nerf Spartan Charge. It’s not a bad mechanic. But it’s way too powerful in its current state. It has way too much range, too much gravitation towards the enemy, and does too much damage. It should be useful as a way to rush in for a stealth kill from the back or to finish somebody off who is already weak. It should NOT be usable as a way to assault a fully shielded player and then easily finish them off with a couple of rounds from your AR. Other ways to reduce its dominance:
> 1) stun the user for a moment if they miss while they regain their footing,
> 2) impact damage on the user if the victim had full shields and thus survived the initial collision
> 3) increase radar range
> 4) decreased the knockback distance so they victim can retaliate with a melee on their damaged attacker if they survive
> - I really, really like Thruster Pack and think it fits in great with Halo. But I wouldn’t be opposed to slightly nerfing it if people requested it, so that you can’t clear such massive jumps with it when using it with sprint-jumping, or perhaps by linking its cooldown with other abilities that use them, like Stabilize or even Sprint.
> - decrease the AOE radius on the Ground Pound so it requires something closer to a direct hit and is thus even more satisfying to get kills with
> - Slide is fine. Maybe even use with a well-time Thruster for extended slide distance. :slight_smile:
> - Stabilize is fine, but I see it as unnecessary. If it’s going to take up space on the controller, making the button layout super awkward if you don’t have an Elite controller as is the case in H5, I’d rather it be taken out. If they find a better way to use controller space in 6, I’m okay with it staying.
> - Smart Link is kind of a cool-looking animation and I like that all weapons now have it. But it should NOT increase the effective RANGE of a weapon! I’d also prefer no accuracy buffs to precision weapons.
> - Clamber I’m totally fine with. It’s a joke when people try to say it somehow removed some super skillful crouch-jumping aspect of Halo, I’m sorry. By the way, you can still crouch-jump, it’s still useful, and I use it all the time in Halo 5. There are places you can crouch-jump to that you can’t clamber to. There are also still skill-jumps in Halo 5. Clamber hasn’t hurt anything.
> Not only do I like clamber, but I’d even like to see it evolved. 2 ideas I’ve long had for it are:
> 1) a Vault over low objects (like in Battlefield) if you are at top sprint speed, so you can maintain speed and not remain a low target
> 2) a vertical wall-step to reach a high ledge if you time Clamber/“Vault” right while approaching the wall below it at top sprint speed.
>
>
> I’d like to hear some thoughts on these ideas, or other ideas that could better balance and reign in Spartan Abilities, which I don’t think are going anywhere. It also appears to me that most people like them in some form, or like some of them. I think 343 should focus on making them better for all players, rather than removing them to please a few while ticking off a bunch of others.

I agree with essentially everything on here. I propose in addition that the Oddball should become a skull.

11

Well spartan charge needs to be nerfed and needs longer for it to get to maximum speed of sprint boost is awesome sprint needs to stay for sure and clamber is fine and ground pound is ok

12

There really can’t be a good comprise that would make me accepting of abilities, they’re unnecessary, they follow a trend that took away from halos identity, and they don’t work with other mechanics in the game, why add mechanics that will fight vs other mechanics?

343 either picks their audience now or they risk just declining more and more like they have been if they keep trying to be in the middle, no one wants that, they want 343 to make the correct game rather than there being a game for no one.

people want fast paced? Simple, increase the BMS and ditch sprint. You’re still getting your fast paced game that also won’t limit the player like sprint does, and the illusion of speed will be gone cause this time you’re actually going fast. The player can also move at any direction with BMS AND shoot at the same time, sprint took away weapon capabilities while moving and you can only move forward with it. I can go on and on about sprint and what it does wrong that BMS can do but I’m sure we all know the effects of sprint at this point. The “stick with the times” excuse doesn’t work for why it got included as it has no justification to the inclusion of it gameplay wise.

clambor has some of the same issues as sprint. You can only clamber forward, there is no left right or backwards like the original jump let you do. It too takes away your weapon capabilities and it has some unnecessary uses. Why is it the ONLY way to get the sword top mid of truth is by the use of clambor? There’s various other spots that are the same way, only obtained by the use of clambor. It forces people to use it if they want something that clambor can achieve. What if I don’t want to clambor? What if I want to simply jump up to top mid of truth while firing at a guy at red window? I’m giving the guy an extra shot or two at me while I can’t do anything back. That’s clambor issues.

slide is unnecessary as well, has no issues, but utterly pointless nonetheless.

stabilize is another unnecessary addition and also carries some of the same issues as clambor. Some jumps require the use of stabilize to hold yourself while you near a ledge to clambor, it exposes you and you’re an easier target, not to mention using scopes weapons with it is an annoyance when you’re not trying to stabilize to begin with, why did 343 tie the scope button with stabilize too? (I have the ability -Yoink- off).

spartan charge is a flat out abomination like armor lock was for Reach. It encourages sprint, it auto locks onto targets, curves corners, and knocks back + stuns the victim that can’t fight back once hit, easy headshot followed by. It needs gone, I never want to see it again, it serves no purpose and I’d rather have double pummel back over this crap.

thrusters are probably the only ability I can say I like. It’s idea is good, the execution is halfway there but it still carries issues. It recharges pretty fast, allows people to get out of fights because of it, and is very unpredictable, unpredictability is bad.

all in all I say to dump the abilities and make a real game, go back to the classic settings cause the noobies got 3 games to their liking, time to go back the original fanbase that was there from the start.

13

> 2533274805105579;1:
> - Smart Link is kind of a cool-looking animation. But it should NOT increase the effective RANGE of a weapon! I’d also prefer no accuracy buffs to precision weapons.

I thought 343i said that Smart Link would not change weapon accuracy or range?

14

> 2533274900668879;5:
> I’m just going to link what I said in another thread concerning the issue of Spartan Abilities: [ Link - 2nd to last on this page ]I appreciate the attempt to compromise, and I could delve further into the issue if you want, but ultimately the only addition 343 has made to gameplay that I would be happy to see return is seat-switching in vehicles.

H8TRs gonna H8T. Just kidding XD

I read the linked comment & wrote in-depth responses to your points, but my reply was pretty long so I cut most of it out in favor of a simplified summary format.

First, you seem to like Halo more than other shooters for the same reasons I do. But after honestly considering each point, I’m scratching my head 'cause you can still do everything you mentioned made those games good. What you said you loved about Halo are things I still love 'cause they’re still there.
And the stuff about skill gap and that “whoever shoots first always wins” are objectively not true. Also Halo 5 feels nothing like CoD to me.

Second, your argument ties heavily into other factors, esp. weapon design. TTK isn’t ideal for many weapons in H5 (which hopefully the tuning update will fix). But that’s not a problem w/ Spartan Abilities, it’s a problem w/ things like high bullet magnetism, powerful autos, the ungodly amount of RANGE that absolutely everything has, & the addition of the Plasma Caster which can clear entire rooms with zero skill.

I can respect if you simply don’t like the feeling of Spartan Abilities, but your actual arguments on that thread seemed to jump ship to other topics or claim something’s been lost from Halo’s formula that objectively hasn’t.

But I’m glad we can at least all agree that seat-switching is amazing. :slight_smile:

15

I actually like a lot about the new movement but I’d rather see the map itself provide the means for movement.

Example: teleporter on blood gulch, man-cannon on narrows, lifts on construct (or even Jetpack pickup on Reach’s remake).

I feel like by making the movement based on the map itself, it provides a lot more variety from match-to-match and forces map designers to focus on gameplay rather than aesthetic.

There’s a lot more you could do with this style, like a thruster pickup that respawns after the user dies or an always-available sprint pickup that only lasts for 1 full “charge.”

16

> 2533274825830455;7:
> > 2533274805105579;1:
> > -Clamber I’m totally fine with. It’s a joke when people try to say it somehow removed some super skillful crouch-jumping aspect of Halo, […] you can still crouch-jump, it’s still useful, & I use it all the time in H5. There are places you can crouch-jump to that you can’t clamber to. There are also still skill-jumps in Halo 5. Clamber hasn’t hurt anything.
>
> […] The reality is that in normal gameplay, players miscalculate jumps that aren’t exceptionally difficult every now and then, and in the past when that happened, they faced the consequences of their failure. Clamber allows players to redeem their mistakes, which means that they are punished less for their failures.

I actually think that’s fine. This is pure opinion territory, but what I like about Halo is the stuff that H8TRFFC mentioned. To me it’s about gunplay & strategy. I see the wisdom of knowing when & where you should position yourself, and w/ what weapons, etc., as immensely more important than the difficulty of physically getting TO that position. If it’s difficult to get to a strong position on the map because you’ll be exposing yourself to the sightlines of opponents, that’s a legitimate risk that should be there. But I don’t think it should be difficult to get to a super important spot on a map just because you can’t reach it unless you spend a week studying a YouTube video and repeating an exact sequence of complex maneuvers or, as you put it, sacrificing a goat. These common, ordinary jumps you’re focused on should be easy in my opinion. I think the game should be focused on the skill of actually playing the game, besting your opponents. Traversal just gets you TO the gunfights. We don’t play Halo to play a challenging jumping simulator. We play to best others through thoughtful use of the weapons. You should be more “punished” for missing shots, not so much for barely missing ledges that are intended to be easily reached. It’s a rather subjective area, but that’s my take on it.

About the crazy goat-sacrificing jumps, I wasn’t talking about those. I was saying there are plenty of times to crouch jump in which Clamber is not useful, including but not limited to trickier “skill jumps”.

> 2533274825830455;7:
> Can you give me an example of such a jump?

Well, yeah, but one’s not necessary. I use crouch-jumping very frequently, plenty of places. Clamber only works if certain conditions are met. You can’t clamber every ledge. Many Forgers utilize these weaknesses to create anti-clamber bumpers on certain ledges due to their shape, or by placing blocks at the right height. There needs to be a sufficient amount of space on top of the ledge you are trying to clamber to, & the height of the object you’re trying to matters. An important factor is your position relative to the ledge. In order to clamber, you have to be a bit below the ledge.

I frequently encounter spots that I can’t normally jump to because they are too high, & I can’t clamber to them 'cause they’re not quite high enough relative to where my player is, but they’re the perfect height to crouch-jump up onto. You can also jump, boost yourself towards a ledge or something, and your feet would hit it if you don’t crouch-jump. In some of those cases you could catch yourself w/ clamber after waiting to fall, but that’s slower. Crouch-jumping is handy a lot in 5 just like other Halo games, but esp. for small gaps that you literally cannot get through ANY other way but by crouching. A great example is on Fathom, in the sneaky windows beside the ramps to the top-mid bridge, which allows for some quick getaways or drops on your enemy below. Speaking of fathom, there are a ton of skill jumps present there despite clamber. Look up Halo 5 skill jumps on YouTube and you’ll find a ton of them, as well as a ton of spots you need clamber for, and clamber alone to reach, by design, that fit perfectly well on the normal-sized dev maps. Not sure what you meant by that part.

And I agree that the map design should compliment game mechanics well, but I honestly think H5 maps pull that off well for their abilities…

> Clamber doesn’t introduce anything meaningful to gameplay. […] So, rather than asking why should Clamber not be in the game, why not ask: why should it be in the game? As someone who believes that a game mechanic shouldn’t be implemented unless it adds a significant amount of depth to gameplay, why should I endorse Clamber?

That’s by far your best point. I probably wouldn’t have ever asked for it if it wasn’t there, & it doesn’t add a whole lot, you’re right. I welcome it, but don’t need it. Wouldn’t cry if it was gone. You’re also right that it’s only to make map traversal easier, & if you don’t agree with my reasoning on why that’s not a bad thing then I can see why you wouldn’t want the addition. My main argument was that it doesn’t hurt the game, and I hope I’ve demonstrated why pretty well now. I think it’s nice to have, & I have no problem with it, but it’s not the big new innovation necessary to take Halo to the next level. I’d be okay with it going, but even still I’d love to see it come back in the form of the Vault I mentioned at least. :slight_smile:

17

> 2533274805105579;16:
> I actually think that’s fine. This is pure opinion territory, but what I like about Halo is the stuff that H8TRFFC mentioned. To me it’s about gunplay & strategy. I see the wisdom of knowing when & where you should position yourself, and w/ what weapons, etc., as immensely more important than the difficulty of physically getting TO that position. If it’s difficult to get to a strong position on the map because you’ll be exposing yourself to the sightlines of opponents, that’s a legitimate risk that should be there. […] I think the game should be focused on the skill of actually playing the game, besting your opponents. Traversal just gets you TO the gunfights. We don’t play Halo to play a challenging jumping simulator. We play to best others through thoughtful use of the weapons. You should be more “punished” for missing shots, not so much for barely missing ledges that are intended to be easily reached. It’s a rather subjective area, but that’s my take on it.

Well, I can’t force you to value the same aspects of Halo’s gameplay that I value, but I think the movement aspect of Halo is underappreciated by fans.Why do you make this artificial distinction between movement skill and “skill of actually playing the game”? Aren’t you actually playing the game when you’re getting from A to B? Why should we value the finger dexterity of outgunning the opponent over the finger dexterity of outrunning the opponent? Movement and shooting are just two variations on the same set of skills, so why praise one and shun the other? Why should you be punished for missing a shot, but not be punished for missing a jump?

I can understand if you personally just aren’t that into the movement aspect of Halo. But can you at least acknowledge that it is a “skill of actually playing the game” just like any other? It exists as part of the game just like shooting, weapon control, and positioning. How important mastering it is (or rather, what it takes to master it) is up to the designers, but it is a skill that exists and is relevant in the game, nonetheless.

On a side note, the difficulty of getting to a position is not really relevant per se. As a matter of fact, if a position on the map is strong (in thg sense that it has good sightlines and cover), it should be relatively easy to get to, because making it difficult to get to could make it too powerful. This is precisely why super jumps in Halo 2 were a problem, for example. With that said, positions that don’t have adequate cover, but do have useful sight lines can be reasonably difficult to get to, because they reward those with movement skills. But rather than being about the minimum effort needed to getfrom A to B, the beauty in movement skill is that a better player can get from A to B faster or more efficiently than a less skilled player.

On that same point, if you’re only focusing on the jumps that require you to try repeatedly before you succeed even once, you’re missing the point. Those jumps can be fun in their own right, but they’re rare, and usually have a terrible return on investment until you actually get to the point of nailing them consistently. There’s certaintly a lot more to movement skills than that. The thing I love is just to try to understand the map geometry in a way that I can use my understanding of the game’s physics to either find small improvements to the obvious paths, or find paths that aren’t immediately obvious (but not necessarily difficult when you get them).

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> Speaking of fathom, there are a ton of skill jumps present there despite clamber. Look up Halo 5 skill jumps on YouTube and you’ll find a ton of them, as well as a ton of spots you need clamber for, and clamber alone to reach, by design, that fit perfectly well on the normal-sized dev maps. Not sure what you meant by that part.

Trust me, I have gone through videos on jumps in Halo 5 to understand how trick jumps works in the game, because movement is an aspect of Halo that I’m really interested in. But as I said, it’s not that Clamber removes all skill jumps. In some ways, the relevance of movement skills in Halo 5 was rescued by some subtle quirks of Spartan Abilities. In those YouTube videos you refer to, most of the jumps that are at all challenging to execute require some combination of different Spartan Abilities, and most often the peculiar property of Stabilizer where repeated crouching in mid-air gives extra height to the jump. Thus the skill in jumping in Halo 5 most often comes from precisely timing these various combinations of Spartan Abilities, which I totally recognize as a meaningful skill. Jumps in Halo 5 that don’t require elaborate use of Spartan Abilities are most often trivially easy, because most ledges can be Clambered, which makes precise timing on these jumps nonessential.

When it comes to the point about map sizes, you’ll have to realize that the maps in Halo 5 are fairly massive and open when compared to maps from the original trilogy. For example, Truth is significantly larger by raw diameter than its predecessor Midship. This increase in size is already necessary due to Sprint, and it facilitates some of the space needed to design jumps. However, even despite that, you will rarely come across clearly intentional gaps that are only barely possible with Clamber. (The difficulty of having this discussion is that we’ll never really know what jumps are intentional and what are unintentional, aside from the obviously intentional ones.)

Just for some context on how jumping works in Halo 5, the basic jump at sprint speed without crouching has a horizontal distance of about 47 Forge units, and maximum height of about 10 units. Crouch jump is 49 and 12, respectively. But then, Clamber, all by itself, raises that to 59 and 16. This means that if you wanted to make a gap that’s not possible to jump (ignoring for the moment other Spartan Abilities), you would have to make it 20% longer with Clamber in the game than with Clamber removed. This does put some constraints on how compactly you can design a map if you want either jumps that are not possible, or jumps that are difficult.

This problem actually gets completely out of hand when you consider the other Spartan Abilities. The longest jump without change in elevation that I’ve been able to make using just the Spartan Abilities is 100 Forge units (though I’ve run into claims that some combination would allow up to 120, but I haven’t figured out what that is). The heighest one I’ve made is 24 units. Consider the fact that your typical smallish map in Halo 5 would be in the neighborhood of 300 units on some axis. (Height variation is less of an issue.) This is of course just the extreme case, because jumps nearing 100 units aren’t trivial to execute, but I hope you get the point of what kind gaps you must have in Halo 5 if you don’t want players to cross them.

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> You’re also right that it’s only to make map traversal easier, & if you don’t agree with my reasoning on why that’s not a bad thing then I can see why you wouldn’t want the addition.

Yep, that’s at the heart of our disagreement. And even if you don’t agree with me, I at least hope you could see why I value difficult jumps and failure. It makes the game interesting for me because it gives me something worth learning.

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> > 2533274805105579;16:
> > I see the wisdom of knowing when & where you should position yourself, and w/ what weapons, etc., as immensely more important than the difficulty of physically getting TO that position. […] I think the game should be focused on the skill of actually playing the game, besting your opponents. Traversal just gets you TO the gunfights. We don’t play Halo to play a challenging jumping simulator. We play to best others through thoughtful use of the weapons. You should be more “punished” for missing shots, not so much for barely missing ledges that are intended to be easily reached.
>
>
>
> ```c

an you at least acknowledge that it is a “skill of actually playing the game” just like any other? It exists as part of the game just like shooting, weapon control, and positioning. How important mastering it is (or rather, what it takes to master it) is up to the designers, but it is a skill that exists and is relevant in the game, nonetheless.
[/quote]
I can see what you’re saying, & perhaps I should have used different wording. It’s part of the game (as a necessity), I just don’t think it’s what the game’s primarily there for. I think it’s primarily a battle of strategy & aim, so I think moving from 1 area of the map to the next should be the easy part. You just said the importance of mastering movement is up to the developers, but I don’t see how that lines up with your argument which otherwise sounds like you think movement mastery should be more important & Clamber makes it too easy.

I agree, man. But as I pointed out, that’s still very possible in Halo 5. Plenty of goats die daily as players skilled w/ the movement mechanics fly around, crouch jump, bunny hop, and traverse the map significantly faster than brand new players. I’m all for the players who do get the movement down being rewarded for it. But that hasn’t vanished at all w/ Clamber, and if anything expert traversal is a skill gap that has expanded in Halo 5 due to the other Spartan Abilities. I just think the core, basic movement for casual players should be easy & intuitive. I agree it shouldn’t be made impossible to master jumps and movement above & beyond. But Clamber hasn’t made that impossible at all.

I agree. And we still have that.

Again, agreed. Most jump areas, the basic jumps simply for getting from one part of the map to another via a very clear, intended route, can be clambered. Why should it be hard for the casual & new players to traverse the most basic parts of the map like these, when the skilled players can still get there more quickly and efficiently as a bonus for their efforts?

I agree, it’s too big. I think the excessive range of all the H5 weapons is a factor, but certainly the combination of Sprint + Thruster + Clamber contributes a ton. In my original post, I said I support toning them down, and that still stands. I think it should take longer to reach top sprint speed, Thruster should add less forward momentum, and the reach of Clamber is too generous. I think toning all of those down would help reduce map scale, which I agree needs to happen. I think we agree on more than we disagree.

I see your point and think you’ve made it well for the most part. I hope Halo 6 will be an improved experience for us both.

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> 2533274805105579;14:
> > 2533274900668879;5:
> > ------------------------
>
> H8TRs gonna H8T. Just kidding XD
> I read the linked comment & wrote in-depth responses to your points, but my reply was pretty long so I cut most of it out in favor of a simplified summary format.
> First, you seem to like Halo more than other shooters for the same reasons I do. But after honestly considering each point, I’m scratching my head 'cause you can still do everything you mentioned made those games good. What you said you loved about Halo are things I still love 'cause they’re still there.
> And the stuff about skill gap and that “whoever shoots first always wins” are objectively not true. Also Halo 5 feels nothing like CoD to me.
>
> Second, your argument ties heavily into other factors, esp. weapon design. TTK isn’t ideal for many weapons in H5 (which hopefully the tuning update will fix). But that’s not a problem w/ Spartan Abilities, it’s a problem w/ things like high bullet magnetism, powerful autos, the ungodly amount of RANGE that absolutely everything has, & the addition of the Plasma Caster which can clear entire rooms with zero skill.
>
> I can respect if you simply don’t like the feeling of Spartan Abilities, but your actual arguments on that thread seemed to jump ship to other topics or claim something’s been lost from Halo’s formula that objectively hasn’t.
>
> But I’m glad we can at least all agree that seat-switching is amazing. :slight_smile:

7 years I’ve had this GT…I supposed I should be surprised I’ve went this long without a pun.

Anyway, I was attempting to assert the possibility that the common issues brought up with Halo 5’s gameplay, (Magnetism, Heavy Aim Assist, ADS, OP Weapons, Focus on Automatics, Useless Ground Vehicles, etc.) are actually symptomatic of the decision to include mobility mechanics, which is why I’m for their complete removal. I wouldn’t call that ‘jumping ship’.

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If they made spartan abilities just like equipment in halo 3 then I would probably be OK with it