Custom Games
Competitive Play
Incentive to Play
Kill Times
Map Movement
Map Quality
Player Skill
Theater
Campaign
Vehicles
Power Weapons
Grenades
Firefight
Just a couple things ya’know? Its not so bad right? It still has a “Halo” title right?
I’ll see your dead Custom Games and raise you an improved Forge and a brand-new massively-configurable gametype engine.
I don’t disagree about the other stuff getting shafted, though.
Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
> Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
They hinder orthodox “Halo” map movement. Not to mention sprinting in and of itself changed game-play entirely sometimes turning a quick and decisive 1v1 encounter into a game of cat & mouse.
You may argue that Reach was specifically meant to be unorthodox “Halo” but really who would want that? Clearly it would hold no ground with any real Halo fan thus dubbing Halo: Reach an experiment to the masses, which failed horribly IMO.
> > Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
>
> They hinder orthodox “Halo” map movement. Not to mention sprinting in and of itself changed game-play entirely sometimes turning a quick and decisive 1v1 encounter into a game of cat & mouse.
>
> You may argue that Reach was specifically meant to be unorthodox “Halo” but really who would want that? Clearly it would hold no ground with any real Halo fan thus dubbing Halo: Reach an experiment to the masses, which failed horribly IMO.
You typed a lot of words but said nothing. Sprint and Jetpack enhance map movement. They do not hinder map movement.
> > > Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
> >
> > They hinder orthodox “Halo” map movement. Not to mention sprinting in and of itself changed game-play entirely sometimes turning a quick and decisive 1v1 encounter into a game of cat & mouse.
> >
> > You may argue that Reach was specifically meant to be unorthodox “Halo” but really who would want that? Clearly it would hold no ground with any real Halo fan thus dubbing Halo: Reach an experiment to the masses, which failed horribly IMO.
>
> You typed a lot of words but said nothing. Sprint and Jetpack enhance map movement. They do not hinder map movement.
Oh lawd…
Want to get to sniper platform on Reflection? Jetpack directly up, where before you’d have to either take the lift or go up let or right ramp. Jetpack provides you with ‘shortcuts’ which hinder map movement as you’re moving around the map less.
Now sprint… I don’t think it hinders map movement, but it’s bad for other reasons which are outlined in this nice quote:
> "With the addition of AA’s to Halo Reach, MLG has struggled to incorporate them into their settings simply due to how they operate and how they affect the game. Eventually, Sprint became the sole loadout AA, with the others on the maps as pickups… all was as good as it can be with Reach. However, with the advent of the no-bloom TU and its implications going forward, we must re-examine the use of Sprint and its affect on the game.
>
> There is nothing inherently wrong with sprint; it’s an incredibly necessary and beneficial feature for some games. However, due to the slower killing speeds and movement speeds of Halo games, as well as the multiple respawns per player, Sprint can actually become a hindrance to the flow and pacing of the game.
>
> It’s not enough to simply say, “Players can escape from bad decisions when they otherwise shouldn’t,” because as soon as we added sprint to the game, it no longer became a bad decision. However, while that’s not a good reason to remove sprint, it’s in no way a defense of sprint either.
>
> Before I get into sprint itself, I’d like to briefly touch on why maps are designed in certain ways. The relative ranges of the weapons in the sandbox and player movement options dictate the proper spacing of elements in a map. The distance between doorways, the amount of open space you have, the cover-to-cover distance, is all designed around how a player moves and how the weapons interact. Halo gameplay, as it has always done, functions best on medium to small maps with a good combination of open space and covered areas. Successful players learn the maps and how other players move about them to accurately predict and anticipate their movements. This lends a sense of pacing and order, which is instrumental in facilitating and rewarding well-conceived strategy and actions.
>
> The ability of players to accurately anticipate where other players are going to be on the map based on their knowledge and experience is of paramount importance for a balanced Halo game. Sprint drastically affects this skill, making it far less predictable and far less reliable when planning your actions.
>
> This can be illustrated on a small scale with a 1 on 1 encounter. When one player disengages and retreats to cover, there is a switch that goes off in the attacking player’s mind which begins a process of elimination and prediction. Good players will usually be able to predict where the enemy is retreating to and select the most effective route to cut off their retreat and finish the kill. On the other side of the spectrum, the retreating player can anticipate (based on how experienced they think their pursuer is) where the attacker is going to move and create a counter attack or a different retreat pattern. And thus a game of chess is played with each engagement that doesn’t immediately end; each player using their map knowledge and anticipation to outwit the other. All of this happens very quickly; within the span of a few seconds. The very integrity of individual battles rests on the fact that players can only move in certain ways to certain locations within a specific time frame.
>
> When sprint is added to the equation, this process becomes obfuscated and muddled. Many would argue that this simply raises the level of knowledge and prediction required to close out an encounter, but that’s simply not the case. The issue is that the geometry of the maps, out of necessity, must be designed primarily around standard movement. What this means is that the delicate balance between cover-to-cover distance, escape routes and angles of attack is completely obliterated in almost every situation when Sprint is in play. Even if an attacking player accurately predicts where the escaping player is retreating to, sprint makes it so that the attacker will never have a chance to act on that advantage.
>
> Under normal movement conditions, the escaping player will need to react based on the possible angles of the attacking player and where they are located on the map. Sometimes, the best play will be to mount a surprise counterattack, fake one direction and go the other, sit and wait, or sometimes the best solution will be to just run to the nearest cover and escape. Additionally, the attacking player can force the retreating player to engage by cutting off their escape routes. All of these different options are playing out in each players mind, forcing them to make a decision and act on it. With sprint, the most viable and intelligent solution to every engagement where you are at a disadvantage is to run. There’s little the attacking player can do about it. The mind battle between the two players for positioning is completely thrown out the window.
>
> This issue also presents itself in the more complicated realm of a 2v2 or 4v4 team game. Even if two or more players are not directly engaged, they each are predicting where the other players are and where they could be within a certain time-frame. This allows players with greater map knowledge and quicker wits to gain a significant advantage. However, like in the 1v1 example, Sprint runs roughshod over any intelligent predications or quick-thinking reactions.
>
> While it’s true that Sprint does not completely eliminate this essential mental aspect, it does make it less reliable and rewarding without providing any tangible benefit to the game in return. What used to be a battle of mind, map knowledge, and execution simply becomes a battle to finish off an opponent desperately sprinting out of reach. "
Reach Killed halo.
That’s it.
> > > Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
> >
> > They hinder orthodox “Halo” map movement. Not to mention sprinting in and of itself changed game-play entirely sometimes turning a quick and decisive 1v1 encounter into a game of cat & mouse.
> >
> > You may argue that Reach was specifically meant to be unorthodox “Halo” but really who would want that? Clearly it would hold no ground with any real Halo fan thus dubbing Halo: Reach an experiment to the masses, which failed horribly IMO.
>
> You typed a lot of words but said nothing. Sprint and Jetpack enhance map movement. They do not hinder map movement.
Jetpack has been proven time and time again that it completely destroys maps, and breaks map control way too easily to be starting equipment.
How many times are you going to paste that article? If MLG didn’t want AAs, they wouldn’t have them. Not only do they have Sprint as your starting AA but they have Evade and Jetpack as pickups.
What you are calling a “shortcut” is really just another way of moving about the map. Would you disagree that Jetpack enhances your ability to move about the map?
EDIT: Could you summarize the reasons why Sprint is bad, from that article. I have read it and the author makes no arguments as to why Sprint is bad. All he says is that is makes it harder to predict where a retreating enemy is going, which I disagree with.
> How many times are you going to paste that article? If MLG didn’t want AAs, they wouldn’t have them. Not only do they have Sprint as your starting AA but they have Evade and Jetpack as pickups.
>
> What you are calling a “shortcut” is really just another way of moving about the map. Would you disagree that Jetpack enhances your ability to move about the map?
That is like saying the Brute Shot or super bouncing enhances map movement.
Jetpack gives you such a cheap method of moving around the map compared to the other AAs, and has no real downsides. Although that is a different argument entirely.
I’d change map movement into map control 
> > How many times are you going to paste that article? If MLG didn’t want AAs, they wouldn’t have them. Not only do they have Sprint as your starting AA but they have Evade and Jetpack as pickups.
> >
> > What you are calling a “shortcut” is really just another way of moving about the map. Would you disagree that Jetpack enhances your ability to move about the map?
>
> That is like saying the Brute Shot or super bouncing enhances map movement.
>
> Jetpack gives you such a cheap method of moving around the map compared to the other AAs, and has no real downsides. Although that is a different argument entirely.
Listen, I have heard the point you are trying to make and it is a valid one to some degree.
This debate started by the OP saying that Reach killed map movement. I disagreed saying that Sprint and Jetpack enhance map movement. Your opinion on the “cheapness” of Jetpack is irrelevant. Does it, or does it not, enhance your ability to move about the map?
BTW the Brute Shot does enhance map movement. Brute Shot Jump.
> How many times are you going to paste that article? If MLG didn’t want AAs, they wouldn’t have them. Not only do they have Sprint as your starting AA but they have Evade and Jetpack as pickups.
>
> What you are calling a “shortcut” is really just another way of moving about the map. Would you disagree that Jetpack enhances your ability to move about the map?
That came from an MLG guy… so…
We’re talking about map movement, not about enhancing player movement (for it does, and that’s the problem), and jetpacks deters map movement because there’s no need to move as much if you can just fly over all your obstacles.
> EDIT: Could you summarize the reasons why Sprint is bad, from that article. I have read it and the author makes no arguments as to why Sprint is bad. All he says is that is makes it harder to predict where a retreating enemy is going, which I disagree with.
If that’s what you got out of it then you seriously need to actually learn how to read.
> That came from an MLG guy… so…
>
> We’re talking about map movement, not about enhancing player movement (for it does, and that’s the problem), and jetpacks deters map movement because there’s no need to move as much if you can just fly over your obstacles.
Wait what? Player movement = map movement.
> > EDIT: Could you summarize the reasons why Sprint is bad, from that article. I have read it and the author makes no arguments as to why Sprint is bad. All he says is that is makes it harder to predict where a retreating enemy is going, which I disagree with.
>
> If that’s what you got out of it then you seriously need to actually learn how to read.
If it is so simple then just summarize it for me. You link that article in every post you make so you should have it memorized by now. Rather than discuss like a normal human you like to insult people who are better than you. That is why you will never get respect from me.
> > > Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
> >
> > They hinder orthodox “Halo” map movement. Not to mention sprinting in and of itself changed game-play entirely sometimes turning a quick and decisive 1v1 encounter into a game of cat & mouse.
> >
> > You may argue that Reach was specifically meant to be unorthodox “Halo” but really who would want that? Clearly it would hold no ground with any real Halo fan thus dubbing Halo: Reach an experiment to the masses, which failed horribly IMO.
>
> You typed a lot of words but said nothing. Sprint and Jetpack enhance map movement. They do not hinder map movement.
What I typed was that, ahem, the regular movement speed of past Halo titles as well as the overall design of the maps in those games are (in my mind, and the minds of others) considered what I called “orthodox Halo”. Meaning the standard by which Halo: CE/2/3 set for map movement and game “flow”. Reach which (in my mind, and the minds of others) is considered what I then called “unorthodox Halo”, for the reason that it does not take from the standards that have been laid down before it.
You get what I am saying? It took what was there, what worked and threw it on the ground.
Now your probably going to get mad over the ahem bit above but I try and entertain those reading as much as possible. Now your still probably going to say “They don’t hinder map movement”, which is fine because you know, the other team running away, rushing your base, flying over top mid, flying above your spawn sure doesn’t hinder your own movement right?
> > That came from an MLG guy… so…
> >
> > We’re talking about map movement, not about enhancing player movement (for it does, and that’s the problem), and jetpacks deters map movement because there’s no need to move as much if you can just fly over your obstacles.
>
> Wait what? Player movement = map movement.
You’re arguing about something you don’t even understand… oh may goodnesss.
Map movement = how often players move around the map. A map with bad map movement would result in a lot of camping (ala, Reflection). A map with good map movement would be more like The Pit.
Player movement = how a player is allowed to move in 3D space.
They influence each other, but player movement =/= map movement.
> Rather than discuss like a normal human you like to insult people who are better than you.
I lol’d.
It’s not simple, and that’s why I didn’t summarize. You actually need to read it.
> > > > Sprint and Jetpack hinder map movement? Ummmm…
> > >
> > > They hinder orthodox “Halo” map movement. Not to mention sprinting in and of itself changed game-play entirely sometimes turning a quick and decisive 1v1 encounter into a game of cat & mouse.
> > >
> > > You may argue that Reach was specifically meant to be unorthodox “Halo” but really who would want that? Clearly it would hold no ground with any real Halo fan thus dubbing Halo: Reach an experiment to the masses, which failed horribly IMO.
> >
> > You typed a lot of words but said nothing. Sprint and Jetpack enhance map movement. They do not hinder map movement.
>
> What I typed was that, ahem, the regular movement speed of past Halo titles as well as the overall design of the maps in those games are (in my mind, and the minds of others) considered what I called “orthodox Halo”. Meaning the standard by which Halo: CE/2/3 set for map movement and game “flow”. Reach which (in my mind, and the minds of others) is considered what I then called “unorthodox Halo”, for the reason that it does not take from the standards that have been laid down before it.
>
> You get what I am saying? It took what was there, what worked and threw it on the ground.
>
> Now your probably going to get mad over the ahem bit above but I try and entertain those reading as much as possible. Now your still probably going to say “They don’t hinder map movement”, which is fine because you know, the other team running away, rushing your base, flying over top mid, flying above your spawn sure doesn’t hinder your own movement right?
First, I’m better then you so calling me a noob makes you look silly.
Second, you did it again. You typed a whole lot of words that don’t say anything. Define orthadox and unorthadox at the very least.
Player movement determines map movement. If a player could not jump then there are certain sections of the map that the player could never reach. That is why player movement = map movement. The base movement abilities of a player determine how he can move about the map.
Your refusal to explain what you think the article means suggests to me that you, yourself, do not understand it. When I understand things I have no problem explaining them to people. Your lack of an explanation suggests a lack of understanding. Maybe you can go make more terrible Terminal remakes and think about it.
EDIT: I think I understand what you are getting at. A Jetpacking player can avoid certain areas of the map altogether by using Jetpack and you think that that hinders map movement. The Jackpacker is essentially cutting that part of the map out because he never has to go there. What you must understand though is: it is always a trade. By Jetpacking to avoid an area, the Jetpacker has created a new area: a hallway in the air. These “air hallway” routes are just as much a part of the map as normal hallways. By avoiding one area, regular hallways, they are entering another area, air hallways, more frequently. Map movement is not hindered.
Please to all, do not mix CE with Halo2 and 3 when it comes to player movement. The removal of fall damage and health packs in combination with jump height and weapon damage differences (weaker grenades/BS), the comparison is apples to oranges on map movement.
