Reach compared to Halo 4.

Disclaimer: This thread isn’t a Halo 4 bashing thread. On the contrary, I want to compare the positives and negatives of each game and advocate change to improve the series as a whole. My intention is to bring up constructive discussion, not to start a flame war.

Since it’s blasphemy to bring up Halo 3 or Call of Duty, I’m going to try a different approach. And don’t worry, I’ll be fair to Halo 4 as well.

People often joke about Halo 4 being Reach 2. I honestly wish that was actually the case. But it’s not. While there are several things Halo 4 does better, there are several things Halo Reach did better as well.

To keep hold of your interest, I’ll bring up Halo 4’s positives first.

1. The removal of Bloom
Bloom was added in an attempt to force players to pace their shots at longer ranges. It would allow weapons like the DMR to be useful at long range, but not overbearing. The problem is bloom often lead to battles at close to medium range being determined by luck and not skill.

Halo 4 was right to remove it, but Halo 4 implemented things that are worse, which I will go into later.

2. Hitmarkers
I feel these are a good idea. They let you know when you are actually hitting your enemy, so you can determine if that frag you threw around the corner actually did something useful or not.

3. Player Progression
Commendations have a bigger role than previous, and it’s easy to get to 130. This means people can get all the rank-related content like perks, weapon skins and armor fairly quickly, but commendations are still something to strive for and don’t have game-changing attributes tied to them.

4. Customizable Loadouts
While I can’t say I enjoy or prefer them being in almost every playlist, nor the current options available in them, I can say I think they are a good concept that brings a new level of customization to the game.

5. Armor Abilities
Armor abilities are much more balanced in Halo 4 than in Reach. Gamebreaking ones like jetpack and armor lock have been nerfed or reinvented into more balanced alternatives. Still, there is room for improvement.

6. Encounter Times
Encounters in some of Reach’s maps felt painfully slow. I would travel all across the map searching for enemies. In Halo 4 I have no issue finding battles, though I will say they can be too fast at times.

7. Spartan Ops
Poorly executed, but it has a lot of potential.

Now, Reach’s Turn:

1. Forge World
Forge world was a MASSIVE forge map that allowed for endless possibilities. You could forge anything you wanted, whether it be a tiny arena map or a wide open BTB map. Halo 4’s forge is limited in comparison, you are confined to making only small or medium sized maps. Every game should have a forge world, if not multiple.

2. The Sandbox
Reach’s Sandbox was somewhat smaller than Halo 4’s, but in my opinion it had more variety. Taking from Halo CE’s mentality, almost every weapon was unique in some form or another. Fan favorites like the Grenade Launcher and Falcon come to mind. It is depressing to see some of those weapons removed in-place of reskins like the Suppressor or Beam Rifle. I feel there was a lot of lost potential with forerunner weapons, they could’ve been unique instead of common archetypes like SMG’s and Rifles. Many beloved weapons and vehicles haven’t returned either. I’m not necessarily saying “copy-past weapons from reach”, but I’d like to see more variety. The Railgun and Sticky Detonator are new concepts, lets have more of that.

3. Art Style
Subjective, I’ve already gone over it, here’s the thread if you’re interested, you probably won’t be sadly. Moving on.

4. Skillful Weapons
I won’t say magnetism wasn’t present in reach. But there was very little aim assist at close range, and none at long ranges. If you hit someone, it’s because you aimed at them, and not because the game pulled your crosshair to them. Getting a shot from across the map with the DMR actually felt rewarding, now you can just spam it for kills. Bloom wasn’t necessary because of the lack of aim assist, but now with all this aim assist it becomes necessary. Guns should have no bloom AND low aim assist, not one or the other.

5. Map Design
Reach still had arena styled maps with a lot of verticality. Reflection and Boardwalk for instance. While AA’s did detract from the experience somewhat, I feel that these maps still play well, and that 343I has overcompensated with their map design. Most maps in Halo 4 are fairly simplistic in their design, I feel this leads to staler gameplay.

6. Player Freedom
You could toggle sprint on and off in Reach. Reach also had the most custom games options of any title, along with the best Forge in my opinion. Players weren’t constrained to what the developers wanted. There were also classic and competitive playlists so people weren’t forced to play the vanilla of the game. These playlists didn’t rely on stripping the game down entirely either.

7. Specific gametypes having specific loadouts.
I feel this has potential, and I would like to see this furthered. What if specific maps had specific loadouts? For instance, disabling jetpack use on maps like hang em high, or Active Camo use on maps that have small, crowded areas? Disabling DMR’s on maps that weren’t intended to be about long range fighting, or AR’s and Plasma Pistols on BTB maps?

What I’m proposing:

Halo 5 should merge the two titles. It should focus on taking the best aspects from both, and leaving the negative aspects behind, and then innovating on top of that.

Come on I actually put some effort into this one.

I hate Reach. Halo 4 should have built off the series roots instead of Reach and Halo 5 should at the very least have a classic playlist and fix the mistakes of 4 or it will be my last Halo.

three things i miss form Reach:

  1. Falcon

  2. Warthog’s signature Engine Whine

  3. Vehicle combat

In halo 4, you cant stay longer that 30 seconds in a warthog without getting STUCK to oblivion

Customizable Loadouts and Armor Abilities =negative. Spartan Ops i understand what they try do to it´s a firefight but 343i way and it´s boring solo or online it´s a boring game mode.

I agree with almost everything.

There are a few areas I feel a bit more strongly on though.

AAs: While maybe being slightly more balanced than Reach… being able to spawn with Active Camo or Jet Pack is so detrimental to gameplay. I would include sprint in here to but I know to many would scream if it was removed completely… so maybe an option? :wink:

Aim assist desperately needs to be turned down. I would argue the BR could use a buff to or at least remove the random spread for Halo 5

One thing that you didnt mention is player movement traits. I really think we need to push for a Halo 2 style tight strafe response where strafing is actually effective again.

Descope needs to come back in Halo 5. So many weapon balance issues would be solved instantly.

I agree 100% that hit markers were a good idea. Maybe not as necessary on LAN but Online it is a godsend knowing whether or not your shot landed.

I do agree with the general sentiment though. There was a lot that Reach did right. It was over shadowed by the negatives which is the same with Halo 4 but I think in combination there is a lot good to go on that can provide the new feel that some players enjoy while also providing the vets wit ha means to play as they desire.

I still maintain that MLG Reach v7 was some of the most competitive Halo you could get. The maps are what struggled.

> Come on I actually put some effort into this one.

Reach had better A.I. which is sad?

There are a lot of things I forgot or left out. I do agree movement felt better and Descoping was better as well. I also agree with active camo, jetpack, and sprint. I also like sprint as an option, less of an impact on the game that way.

There’s probably many more comparisons I could make but won’t for the sake of brevity.

> Reach had better A.I. which is sad?

Reach’s campaign was amazing, the gameplay that is.

> > Come on I actually put some effort into this one.
>
> Reach had better A.I. which is sad?

looks at Kat, Emile, and all the allied Marines

You’re joking right?

While certainly not perfect, reach did have a workable Forge.
And while not without flaws, the Customs were a thing.
Invasion was pretty great.
Vehicles that AREN’T THE GHOST, GAUSS HOG, SCORPION, OR POINTLESS MECH were still relevant in multiplayer.
Firefight was great, too. Spartan Ops is mindless alien dude shooting without the little movies, while Firefight has a whole range of maps and options that the PLAYER can choose from so that they can have a variety of different alien dude shooting experiences.
Oh, and the game didn’t do 70% of my aiming for me.

However,
Reach started the awful trend of “Forge maps” vs “normal maps”
Reach was the first main title without dual-wielding after Halo 3
Reach started the shrinking of the vehicle roster
Reach started a bunch of lame trends that don’t belong in this series a damn bit

Though I still prefer Reach since it still lets the player play the game their own way (somewhat)

Reach was better than 4 IMO.

It just had the Halo feel to it. Which 4 lost somehow.

> Encounters in some of Reach’s maps felt painfully slow. I would travel all across the map searching for enemies. In Halo 4 I have no issue finding battles, though I will say they can be too fast at times.

I disagree, Regicide on Complex could be labeled as ¨ ridiculously slow¨.

> Disclaimer: This thread isn’t a Halo 4 bashing thread. On the contrary, I want to compare the positives and negatives of each game and advocate change to improve the series as a whole. My intention is to bring up constructive discussion, not to start a flame war.
>
> Since it’s blasphemy to bring up Halo 3 or Call of Duty, I’m going to try a different approach. And don’t worry, I’ll be fair to Halo 4 as well.
>
> People often joke about Halo 4 being Reach 2. I honestly wish that was actually the case. But it’s not. While there are several things Halo 4 does better, there are several things Halo Reach did better as well.
>
> To keep hold of your interest, I’ll bring up Halo 4’s positives first.
>
> 1. The removal of Bloom
> Bloom was added in an attempt to force players to pace their shots at longer ranges. It would allow weapons like the DMR to be useful at long range, but not overbearing. The problem is bloom often lead to battles at close to medium range being determined by luck and not skill.
>
> Halo 4 was right to remove it, but Halo 4 implemented things that are worse, which I will go into later.
>
> I would be fine with just the BR to be honest. No killing across maps in seconds and the close to medium range battles come down to 95% skill and not luck.
>
> 2. Hitmarkers
> I feel these are a good idea. They let you know when you are actually hitting your enemy, so you can determine if that frag you threw around the corner actually did something useful or not.
>
> This is fine. It doesnt break anything in my opinion.
>
> 3. Player Progression
> Commendations have a bigger role than previous, and it’s easy to get to 130. This means people can get all the rank-related content like perks, weapon skins and armor fairly quickly, but commendations are still something to strive for and don’t have game-changing attributes tied to them.
>
> I hate commedations with a passion. People running around on your team with a carbine or assault rifle just to get their commedation up. I HATE IT! Also hate the exp rank in this one. To reach the highest rank in Reach you had to be a die hard fan, in this one anyone can.
>
>
> 4. Customizable Loadouts
> While I can’t say I enjoy or prefer them being in almost every playlist, nor the current options available in them, I can say I think they are a good concept that brings a new level of customization to the game.
>
> This was the single worst decision in Halo. Halo is not a loadout type game. Because of loadouts EVERYONE has a DMR and boltshot or plasma pistol in BTS. I liked voting on gametypes that were like “BR Slayer” or “Elite Slayer”. Thats now gone. Also to have loadouts in EVERY playlist until like February really sucked.
>
> 5. Armor Abilities
> Armor abilities are much more balanced in Halo 4 than in Reach. Gamebreaking ones like jetpack and armor lock have been nerfed or reinvented into more balanced alternatives. Still, there is room for improvement.
>
> I honestly dont mind AAs. As long as armor lock is gone im good.
>
> 6. Encounter Times
> Encounters in some of Reach’s maps felt painfully slow. I would travel all across the map searching for enemies. In Halo 4 I have no issue finding battles, though I will say they can be too fast at times.
>
> I very much like the slower encounters. Way more strategy going on. Its like Casino Royal and Transformers 3. Casino Royal had way more talk/drama then action scenes, but the action scenes were wayyyy better. Transformers 3, well, is just crap okay? Halo Reach was way better paced like CR while Halo 4 is just in your face senseless action 24/7 like T3.
>
> 7. Spartan Ops
> Poorly executed, but it has a lot of potential.
>
> You couldnt of said it better.

> Reach started the awful trend of “Forge maps” vs “normal maps”

Many of the forge maps were better than on-disc ones, but I can agree they were way too numerous, doesn’t help that they lower the chance of DLC coming up as well.

Perhaps if forge maps had their own playlists it wouldn’t be as big of an issue.

I can’t wait for halo 5 so that Halo 4 can be considered good.

I hated Reach so much that I can’t compare it to halo 4 in any way. Aside from Forge, Theater, and customs, there isn’t a single thing in Reach that I think is better.

> Now, Reach’s Turn:
>
> 1. Forge World
> Forge world was a MASSIVE forge map that allowed for endless possibilities. You could forge anything you wanted, whether it be a tiny arena map or a wide open BTB map. Halo 4’s forge is limited in comparison, you are confined to making only small or medium sized maps. Every game should have a forge world, if not multiple.
>
> People say “Halo 4 has 3 forge worlds you should be happy”. Well Halo Reach had like 5, its just not they were all in one HUGE map.
>
> 2. The Sandbox
> Reach’s Sandbox was somewhat smaller than Halo 4’s, but in my opinion it had more variety. Taking from Halo CE’s mentality, almost every weapon was unique in some form or another. Fan favorites like the Grenade Launcher and Falcon come to mind. It is depressing to see some of those weapons removed in-place of reskins like the Suppressor or Beam Rifle. I feel there was a lot of lost potential with forerunner weapons, they could’ve been unique instead of common archetypes like SMG’s and Rifles. Many beloved weapons and vehicles haven’t returned either. I’m not necessarily saying “copy-past weapons from reach”, but I’d like to see more variety. The Railgun and Sticky Detonator are new concepts, lets have more of that.
>
> Unlimited potential for Forerunner weapons and they are all just copy and paste of human weapons. Hell the 2 unique weapons were humans!(rail gun and sticky).
>
> 3. Art Style
> Subjective, I’ve already gone over it, here’s the thread if you’re interested, you probably won’t be sadly. Moving on.
>
> I like the way Halo 4 looks so meh.
>
> 4. Skillful Weapons
> I won’t say magnetism wasn’t present in reach. But there was very little aim assist at close range, and none at long ranges. If you hit someone, it’s because you aimed at them, and not because the game pulled your crosshair to them. Getting a shot from across the map with the DMR actually felt rewarding, now you can just spam it for kills. Bloom wasn’t necessary because of the lack of aim assist, but now with all this aim assist it becomes necessary. Guns should have no bloom AND low aim assist, not one or the other.
>
> ANYONE who says I can out duel people with the DMR using my BR or Carbine is just in denial. 2 people with the same skill faces off, one with DMR and one with another rifle: DMR wins, end of story. When getting shot with a DMR in Reach it wasnt an automatic death sentence like it is in Halo 4.
>
> 5. Map Design
> Reach still had arena styled maps with a lot of verticality. Reflection and Boardwalk for instance. While AA’s did detract from the experience somewhat, I feel that these maps still play well, and that 343I has overcompensated with their map design. Most maps in Halo 4 are fairly simplistic in their design, I feel this leads to staler gameplay.
>
> I thought that Reach did have the worst maps, however they were competitive and as you said, arena style. Halo 4’s to me is better, but just pretty boring.
>
>
> 6. Player Freedom
> You could toggle sprint on and off in Reach. Reach also had the most custom games options of any title, along with the best Forge in my opinion. Players weren’t constrained to what the developers wanted. There were also classic and competitive playlists so people weren’t forced to play the vanilla of the game. These playlists didn’t rely on stripping the game down entirely either.
>
> Almost every single player had something that appealed to them in Reach. Halo 4 had NO variety in it for at least 4 months. EVERYTHING was DMR battles and thats it. Halo 4 is finally starting to appeal to me by adding in old stuff and mixing it with the new stuff. We shouldnt have to wait for stuff like that. Everything they have done should of ben done day 1.
>
> 7. Specific gametypes having specific loadouts.
> I feel this has potential, and I would like to see this furthered. What if specific maps had specific loadouts? For instance, disabling jetpack use on maps like hang em high, or Active Camo use on maps that have small, crowded areas? Disabling DMR’s on maps that weren’t intended to be about long range fighting, or AR’s and Plasma Pistols on BTB maps?
>
> YES! Places like Ragnorok comes to mind. If your team starts downhill then forget about winning. The DMR shouldnt be in loadouts on that map. At the top of the hill in the middle you can literally hit anything at any place on the map. Almost impossible to push up.
>
> What I’m proposing:
>
> Halo 5 should merge the two titles. It should focus on taking the best aspects from both, and leaving the negative aspects behind, and then innovating on top of that.
>
> Halo 4 is finally kinda becoming a mix of Reach and launch day Halo 4. Why couldnt stuff like static weapon spawn, set loadouts, non infinity slayer, and so forth be there day one. It was obvious that not everyone would like Infinity Slayer. Just have both normal slayer and Infinity Slayer. 343 may finally get it after begging for so long, however the stuff we ask for should of never been taken away to begin with. Thats the problem.

I agree with you but mostly we need it to feel like Halo with the new featues.

2 noobs fighting with bloom: random outcome.

noob vs pro with bloom: pro wins much more easily, with less lost health than with no bloom.

2 pros fighting with bloom: same outcome as if there were no bloom as both players can handle it. Determined by skill, but requires more skill than simple aiming.

I do give reach some points for doing stuff better than halo 4, but there was a lot of unessesary stuff bungie did in reach that was a hit or miss, and they missed.

One thing in particular was crossing over weapon niches. For one, the dmr was made to fill a long range niche. However, the sniper already filled t hi s niche, making it rather redundant. In addition, the scoped pistol was given the medium range the br used to fill the niche of, and the ar was literally downgraded to the effective range of an smg.

This wasnt much of a problem in reach, since everyone spawned with the same weapons, making gunplay “balanced”. But with the coming of custom loadouts in halo 4, as well as 343i’s poor decision to build off of reach’s gunplay, we got a big unbalanced mess.

And in a hopless effort to balance this mess, they increased the ar’s damage instead of its range back to medium, threw in reach’s pistol even though the br was made for the same range with twice the clip size, and brought back the dmr which was supposed to be replaced by the br according to bungie’s canon, but was changed by 343i for the sake of bringing reach fan’s beloved one game rifle back, as well as having another option in the loadout system, which was already lacking in variety due to the fact that halo was not meant to be a loadout shooter.

I agree with everything you have said so far Ramirez except the custom loadout part. Custom loadouts do not belong they create far to many problems when it comes to balance. Not only that but if you look at them they actually limit what the player can or cannot do.

Think of it this way, if someone sets up 1 loadout in a particular way the moment they are no longer in that scenario the loadout is ineffective. Now the only way to remedy this is to die and swap loadouts, whereas the way it was before you only had to pick up a weapon to de ready for a new situtaion.

Not only that but they do discourage map movement and to a lesser extent teamwork to control the map. No longer does someone have to scrounge around for a precision weapon or a plasma pistol/grenades. It is all handed too them right off the bat.