Rated M for mature?

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Two questions to consider…

  1. Should 343 increase the amount of gore and profanity in Halo 5 as opposed to previous Halo titles?

  2. If not, should Halo continue to be rated M for mature?

I really don’t see how the Halo series continues to dish out “M” rated games. In campaign you are killing Alien creatures with blue blood, Zombies with green blood, and Artificially intelligence robots. Even when you fight other humans in multiplayer they are faceless soldiers. Halo CE had a good amount of gore in it, but ever since then the gore has been significantly reduced. Dark souls 2 was rated “T” and it’s far more disturbing and violent than Halo IMO.

Additionally the game uses curse words sparingly, and no one has never used a “four letter word” (Mona Lisa is the only rare exception that comes to mind in the Halo universe, but that’s not a game). Remember when mickey said “Son of a gun” and how out of place that sounded? Really?!?

*Now I by no means advocate, nor want unnecessary swearing and gore like in other M rated games (ex: GoW, GTA, etc). I do however think an F-bomb here and there, and a nice decapitating sniper shot to the dome would be a nice touch. Personally, I thought it was cool when Dr. Tillson was composed in Halo 4, and would like to see more stuff like that.

What do you guys think?

2

  1. No.

  2. That’s for the rating board to decide.

Honestly, as a developer your job is to make a game, not adhere to some specific age rating. If the game needs gore for some specific emotional effect, use it, but gore and profanity just for the sake of gore and profanity is utterly pointless.

3

> 1. No.
>
> 2. That’s for the rating board to decide.
>
> Honestly, as a developer your job is to make a game, not adhere to some specific age rating. If the game needs gore for some specific emotional effect, use it, but gore and profanity just for the sake of gore and profanity is utterly pointless.

I’m in full agreement with this. Really, the last thing Halo really needs is Gore Galore. Also Perks and Support Packages. It doesn’t need those either. (FireFight SpOps may be the exception to the latter however)

Also, aren’t ESRB ratings given after they’ve examined the game? Not while they’re still developing and writing it? It’s designated as Rating Pending until then?

4

I never felt Halo deserved the M rating…

5

> 1. No.
>
> 2. That’s for the rating board to decide.
>
> Honestly, as a developer your job is to make a game, not adhere to some specific age rating. If the game needs gore for some specific emotional effect, use it, but gore and profanity just for the sake of gore and profanity is utterly pointless.

  1. I think that 343 should consider it.

I agree with you about not making a game to fit a specific age rating, but sometimes is does feel like halo is held back to keep the game ‘child-friendly’, and yes i accept that children play halo, but they also play games like COD, Battlefield and GTA. I think that the word ‘gore’ is the wrong word to use as people automatically think mutilation or limbs being chopped off left right and centre, I think a better way to phrase the question would be ‘do you think halo should be censored less?’.

When it comes to the content of a game, a more mature game can have the same sort of stuff as a less mature game, the difference is implication. Whereas, say in a more mature game you may see someone gets infested by a swarm of flood infection forms, in a less mature game the camera may pan over to a shaddow if its a cutscene or you may hear it over a radio. A good example is the end of halo reach where SPOILERS! Noble six gets overrun by elites - just as it happens, the screen fades white.

Another example of censorship may be the use of a homonym - replacing ‘F***ing’ with ‘Frigging’. I know I don’t speak for everyone, but I would not be offended if the game was bumped up a notch and went for swearing. I bet that in a battle situation, swearing is going to be the last thing on troops’ mind when facing death.

And lastly, two things that I don’t see applying to halo: Drugs and -Yoink!- censorship.

So if the question was rephrased ‘should halo be censored less?’, I would probably say yes. My reasoning would be that 1, it would immerse you better not to have your senses dulled, and 2 long-term halo fans tend to be that bit older and are old enough for q mature game. Also, money is the only tune 343/MS plays to, kids will still buy a mature game - they will just get parents to buy it for them, in fact i think a more mature game is more appealing for teens.

6

>

“Maturity” is quite a ridiculous way to compare different media when you think about it, especially if you base it on things like gore and profanity. While it’s true that things like violence and swearing require a certain level of maturity to understand, they aren’t necessarily mature things.

Swearing is not a mature thing to do. In most day-to-day situations it’s just casual, in scary situations (e.g. war) it might be compulsive. In other scenarios it’s often immature. A person can be mature without ever saying a single swear word.

This is very important thing to understand when talking about maturity with respect to media. The “mature” in the ESRB rating refers to the user’s expected state of mental development, not the contents of the game. Borderlands isn’t necessarily any more mature than, say, any Mario game, it just necessitates a level of mental development to process properly.

It’s really difficult to pinpoint what can be used as a tool for comparison of maturity of a game. It’s certainly not the obscenity of the game. The complexity of the themes of the game, perhaps? Whatever you use, there is always an example that warrants questioning you. “Maturity” is not a sensible concept with respect to the contents of a game.

As I said, you use what you need to set the tone of your game. Are you trying to make a realistic war game? Having the soldiers swear in the heat of battle is probably appropriate. If the horrors of war are what you are trying to convey to the player, showing all the severed limbs and violence might help in that.

However, is Halo a realistic game about the horrors of war? You may have your interpretation, and the books have definitely, from time to time, made attempts to do that. But as far as I’ concerned, the main line of Halo games has always been about hope and exploration. To me, Halo has never been about portraying the war as it is. It’s a story of heroes that is driven forward not only by tragedy, but also comedy.

As far as I’m concerned, there is no need for more violence or profanity in Halo. I like it as it is, and I certainly don’t want the game to become any darker overall. That just wouldn’t be Halo to me. There is no inner teenager in me who needs violence and profanity for the “coolness” factor.

7

What is it about gore that everybody suddenly wants in halo? Halo has never had extreme gore and I hope it never will.

8

> >
>
> “Maturity” is quite a ridiculous way to compare different media when you think about it, especially if you base it on things like gore and profanity. While it’s true that things like violence and swearing require a certain level of maturity to understand, they aren’t necessarily mature things.
>
> Swearing is not a mature thing to do. In most day-to-day situations it’s just casual, in scary situations (e.g. war) it might be compulsive. In other scenarios it’s often immature. A person can be mature without ever saying a single swear word.
>
> This is very important thing to understand when talking about maturity with respect to media. The “mature” in the ESRB rating refers to the user’s expected state of mental development, not the contents of the game. Borderlands isn’t necessarily any more mature than, say, any Mario game, it just necessitates a level of mental development to process properly.

I really agree that the things discussed are not, in what society considers, ‘mature’ and I do not condone the use of them, however it is just a label used to brand games with content which we would generally deem inappropriate to expose younger people to, such as swearing and gore.

> It’s really difficult to pinpoint what can be used as a tool for comparison of maturity of a game. It’s certainly not the obscenity of the game. The complexity of the themes of the game, perhaps? Whatever you use, there is always an example that warrants questioning you. “Maturity” is not a sensible concept with respect to the contents of a game.

I’m not trying to be ‘that guy’ who has to use exact facts to prove a trivial point, but for reference, here’s the guide on ratings.
For all intended purposes, let’s take ‘M’ - mature, one below ‘T’ - Teen, and one above ‘A’ - Adult. The recommended ages for these ratings are 13+ for T, 17+ for M, and 18+ for A. Halo is generally rated 16+ so just below M. Now T, M and A all say pretty much the same thing: contains violence, blood and strong language. The only difference generally is the degree in which it is shown.

Lets also not forget other rating systems such as PEGI with 16 and BBFC with 15, so we have an exact range from 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18. A game can be pitched where-ever it chooses.

> As I said, you use what you need to set the tone of your game. Are you trying to make a realistic war game? Having the soldiers swear in the heat of battle is probably appropriate. If the horrors of war are what you are trying to convey to the player, showing all the severed limbs and violence might help in that.
>
> However, is Halo a realistic game about the horrors of war? You may have your interpretation, and the books have definitely, from time to time, made attempts to do that. But as far as I’ concerned, the main line of Halo games has always been about hope and exploration. To me, Halo has never been about portraying the war as it is. It’s a story of heroes that is driven forward not only by tragedy, but also comedy.
>
> As far as I’m concerned, there is no need for more violence or profanity in Halo. I like it as it is, and I certainly don’t want the game to become any darker overall. That just wouldn’t be Halo to me. There is no inner teenager in me who needs violence and profanity for the “coolness” factor.

This is the crux of the matter: What kind of game are you wanting? 343 described halo 5 as dark, so with the possible return of the flood, horror is not exactly eliminated from the picture. A realistic war game? Perhaps a bit of blood, or at least enough to create puddles on the ground/battlefield. Swearing? Well, i don’t feel the need for it, but it does go against the grain when a ‘friendly’ substitute is used in place of the ‘real’ thing - almost patronising.

I also don’t feel a need for ‘violence and profanity for the “coolness” factor’, and I’m also not trying to exclude others from the game who may not be legally eligible to buy it (although that never stopped me as a kid), but alongside the story, one thing I prioritise is immersion - do I feel a part of the game, when something unexpected happens, do I jump or just carry on cynically?

I value your viewpoint and this debate, my only gripe on this thread would be that ‘do you want more gore in halo?’ does not necessarily reflect ‘M for Mature’ (or other ratings mentioned).

9

A game can be ‘dark’ without gore and swearing and violence. Emotionally dark, philosophically dark… A species on the brink of extinction can be a dark thing. Learning what the Halo rings were and what they did, and what happened to those that made them, was in my mind pretty dark. A weapon like the Composer being turned on a planet can be a dark thing (We saw what it does do, but that was without lots of blood and gore). The Didact being exiled into a Flood-infested system was a pretty damn dark and cruel thing to do.

A dark story and plenty of gore are not mutually inclusive, and if anything blood spraying all over the place with a single gunshot (Remember that one perk in Fallout 3 that did that for the smallest of things?) does not in any way or form make a game more “immersive” to me. In fact, it does the exact opposite.

10

> > >
> >
> > “Maturity” is quite a ridiculous way to compare different media when you think about it, especially if you base it on things like gore and profanity. While it’s true that things like violence and swearing require a certain level of maturity to understand, they aren’t necessarily mature things.
> >
> > Swearing is not a mature thing to do. In most day-to-day situations it’s just casual, in scary situations (e.g. war) it might be compulsive. In other scenarios it’s often immature. A person can be mature without ever saying a single swear word.
> >
> > This is very important thing to understand when talking about maturity with respect to media. The “mature” in the ESRB rating refers to the user’s expected state of mental development, not the contents of the game. Borderlands isn’t necessarily any more mature than, say, any Mario game, it just necessitates a level of mental development to process properly.
>
> I really agree that the things discussed are not, in what society considers, ‘mature’ and I do not condone the use of them, however it is just a label used to brand games with content which we would generally deem inappropriate to expose younger people to, such as swearing and gore.
>
>
>
> > It’s really difficult to pinpoint what can be used as a tool for comparison of maturity of a game. It’s certainly not the obscenity of the game. The complexity of the themes of the game, perhaps? Whatever you use, there is always an example that warrants questioning you. “Maturity” is not a sensible concept with respect to the contents of a game.
>
> I’m not trying to be ‘that guy’ who has to use exact facts to prove a trivial point, but for reference, here’s the guide on ratings.
> For all intended purposes, let’s take ‘M’ - mature, one below ‘T’ - Teen, and one above ‘A’ - Adult. The recommended ages for these ratings are 13+ for T, 17+ for M, and 18+ for A. Halo is generally rated 16+ so just below M. Now T, M and A all say pretty much the same thing: contains violence, blood and strong language. The only difference generally is the degree in which it is shown.
>
> Lets also not forget other rating systems such as PEGI with 16 and BBFC with 15, so we have an exact range from 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18. A game can be pitched where-ever it chooses.
>
>
>
> > As I said, you use what you need to set the tone of your game. Are you trying to make a realistic war game? Having the soldiers swear in the heat of battle is probably appropriate. If the horrors of war are what you are trying to convey to the player, showing all the severed limbs and violence might help in that.
> >
> > However, is Halo a realistic game about the horrors of war? You may have your interpretation, and the books have definitely, from time to time, made attempts to do that. But as far as I’ concerned, the main line of Halo games has always been about hope and exploration. To me, Halo has never been about portraying the war as it is. It’s a story of heroes that is driven forward not only by tragedy, but also comedy.
> >
> > As far as I’m concerned, there is no need for more violence or profanity in Halo. I like it as it is, and I certainly don’t want the game to become any darker overall. That just wouldn’t be Halo to me. There is no inner teenager in me who needs violence and profanity for the “coolness” factor.
>
> This is the crux of the matter: What kind of game are you wanting? 343 described halo 5 as dark, so with the possible return of the flood, horror is not exactly eliminated from the picture. A realistic war game? Perhaps a bit of blood, or at least enough to create puddles on the ground/battlefield. Swearing? <mark>Well, i don’t feel the need for it, but it does go against the grain when a ‘friendly’ substitute is used in place of the ‘real’ thing - almost patronising.</mark>
>
> I also don’t feel a need for ‘violence and profanity for the “coolness” factor’, and I’m also not trying to exclude others from the game who may not be legally eligible to buy it (although that never stopped me as a kid), but alongside the story, one thing I prioritise is immersion - do I feel a part of the game, when something unexpected happens, do I jump or just carry on cynically?
>
> I value your viewpoint and this debate, my only gripe on this thread would be that ‘do you want more gore in halo?’ does not necessarily reflect ‘M for Mature’ (or other ratings mentioned).

Well perhaps humanity by the time of 2550’s has finally reached the point where it is realized that you don’t need the “real” thing in order convey emotions of surprise, anger, and fear.

11

> A game can be ‘dark’ without gore and swearing and violence. Emotionally dark, philosophically dark… A species on the brink of extinction can be a dark thing. Learning what the Halo rings were and what they did, and what happened to those that made them, was in my mind pretty dark. A weapon like the Composer being turned on a planet can be a dark thing (We saw what it does do, but that was without lots of blood and gore). The Didact being exiled into a Flood-infested system was a pretty damn dark and cruel thing to do.
>
>
> A dark story and plenty of gore are not mutually inclusive, and if anything blood spraying all over the place with a single gunshot (Remember that one perk in Fallout 3 that did that for the smallest of things?) does not in any way or form make a game more “immersive” to me. In fact, it does the exact opposite.

Genocide is dark. Are you really saying that swearing is on par with that?

The question on this thread maily concerns halo’s relation to gore (or its rating?). ‘Gore’ is rather an abstract word, and as mentioned before the consecutive tiers in the rating system do generally contain some of the same traits but differ on degree. Halo is generally rated 16 (or 15) which allows the incorporation of some gore or ‘blood and violence’ which it does.

The bad thing about the general community at the minute is, due to a lack of faith after halo 4, the paradigm at the minute is ‘we’re scared of change in halo and we want to go back to when it was good and forget change’. The fact is that halo has had different ratings in the past going for 16 to 15 back to 16. Is going to 17 (M) really that big of a deal to you? Its not to me but at least I’m open to the idea.

12

> Well perhaps humanity by the time of 2550’s has finally reached the point where it is realized that you don’t need the “real” thing in order convey emotions of surprise, anger, and fear.

Haha, well my point was if you’re not going to put in the intended word, what’s the point in putting in a fake one :wink:

A word is just a sound (or a symbol), it the representation it carries which gives it meaning, so if you mean “S***” does it make it any less by saying “sugar” if people know what you mean?

I appreciate I do not speak for everyone, but swearing in front of me does not offend me. I think that acting aggressively towards someone is more ‘offensive’ whether they’re using bad language or not.

Also just to clarify, I get the impression that you think that I need swearing as an ego boost, I really don’t, it’s just my liberal attitude.

13

Like they said, it’s for the rating board’s decision. (Though Pokemon talks of lost children’s souls becoming phantom stumps. Rated E for Everyone…)

In all honesty and my opinion, I don’t think Halo needs to get any more gory than it already is. This may be because I’m not one with a strong stomach, but in CoD, the only matches that I played were to get the achievement, and I only like Extinction.

Why? To me, all these first-person shooters are about killing everybody, headshots, killstreaks, death, blood, violence. Not exactly for me. The reason I’m okay with Halo and Extinction is that it makes me feel better that I’m not ‘killing’ other people, and just bloodthirsty aliens. (Cryptids. Sorry, Archer.)

Sure, War Games is other people, I hear you thinking. (That’s right, I can hear your thoughts.) Well… They’re in full body suits and not all that human like, when you compare this to other games. :confused:

14

> > Well perhaps humanity by the time of 2550’s has finally reached the point where it is realized that you don’t need the “real” thing in order convey emotions of surprise, anger, and fear.
>
> Haha, well my point was if you’re not going to put in the intended word, what’s the point in putting in a fake one :wink:
>
> A word is just a sound (or a symbol), it the representation it carries which gives it meaning, so if you mean “S***” does it make it any less by saying “sugar” if people know what you mean?
>
> I appreciate I do not speak for everyone, but swearing in front of me does not offend me. I think that acting aggressively towards someone is more ‘offensive’ whether they’re using bad language or not.
>
> Also just to clarify, I get the impression that you think that I need swearing as an ego boost, I really don’t, it’s just my liberal attitude.

Well I think the idea behind using the “friendly” word is a recognition that saying S*** would offend people and using a word that wouldn’t in order to convey the same emotion.

15

I have never understood why Halo was rated M for mature. There are no(or at least VERY little that I’m unaware of) innappropriate references(drugs/-Yoink!-/achohol/other suggestive themes), cursing and swareing are almost nonexistent to the point that when it happens it feels out of place, and aside from perhaps the Flood, gore does not realy ever happen and the blood is barely noticable most of the time.

Some of the Metal Gear Solid games have suggestive themes warranting the M rating, and the Gears of War games are heavily laden with excessive amounts of strong language and disturbing and mutilating gore. Halo has almost none of these things and therefore does not deserve the M rating, IMO.

16

> > > Well perhaps humanity by the time of 2550’s has finally reached the point where it is realized that you don’t need the “real” thing in order convey emotions of surprise, anger, and fear.
> >
> > Haha, well my point was if you’re not going to put in the intended word, what’s the point in putting in a fake one :wink:
> >
> > A word is just a sound (or a symbol), it the representation it carries which gives it meaning, so if you mean “S***” does it make it any less by saying “sugar” if people know what you mean?
> >
> > I appreciate I do not speak for everyone, but swearing in front of me does not offend me. I think that acting aggressively towards someone is more ‘offensive’ whether they’re using bad language or not.
> >
> > Also just to clarify, I get the impression that you think that I need swearing as an ego boost, I really don’t, it’s just my liberal attitude.
>
> Well I think the idea behind using the “friendly” word is a recognition that saying S*** would offend people and using a word that wouldn’t in order to convey the same emotion.

I appreciate that, but in my own personal opinion, I think that it is rather ridiculous that people get more offended over a swear word than the meaning of the word or even the thought of genocide. But hey, it’d be weird if we were all the same.

EDIT

Also just noticed that the different rating systems apply in different countries. I myself live in the UK where we get halo certified through PEGI or BBFC. Kinda thought there may be a more universal one, but no :confused:

17

> I have never understood why Halo was rated M for mature. There are no(or at least VERY little that I’m unaware of) innappropriate references(drugs/-Yoink!-/achohol/other suggestive themes), cursing and swareing are almost nonexistent to the point that when it happens it feels out of place, and aside from perhaps the Flood, gore does not realy ever happen and the blood is barely noticable most of the time.

My guess is that it’s the graphics of Cortana and the whole concept about ruthlessly killing things in general. And there is some bloodshed, and that’s enough. (If you scroll down all the way to the bottom of a Waypoint page, you’ll see a couple more reasons why it’s rated M that aren’t on the game box.)

I have to laugh, though. When I got my first rated ‘M’ game, my parents were freaking out about the ‘age requirement’. But look around. 17 and up? Probably more than half of the CoD community is well under 17, more like ages 7-13!

18

The rating board just rates it mature to cover their a**es. If they don’t and a parent gets offended they get sued(the beauty of sue-happy Americans…).

Regardless I wouldn’t mind a little more blood in Halo since it is a war game, but let’s not do gore. Gears is mindless fun because of its gore, but Halo was never known for its gore, nor should it start it. Maybe instead you can shatter visors or something? Something that gives that satisfaction that you nailed a guy really well (e.g. a solid splatter where the victim is catapulted away).

There are many ways around the blood and gore issue since I feel most people just want that satisfaction of knowing they got the guy, like the tank going up in flames as it explodes. Halo can easily find its moment where after you do something you just say, “yea…that was me!”

Does this make sense?

19

[/li]- When you melee a dead body, graphic blood textures appear on the walls and ground.

  • Halo: CE through 3 all contain Flood forms, which are, for all intents and purposes, zombies.
  • Halo: Reach and 4 show blood puffing or shooting out of bodies when they take health damage.

Sounds like an ESRB M rating to me.

> The rating board just rates it mature to cover their a**es. If they don’t and a parent gets offended they get sued(the beauty of sue-happy Americans…).

Whatever the ESRB does is better than what would happen if it didn’t exist and game distribution was controlled by the government. I’d rather all games have an M on the box than have to show several forms of ID and apply for a license to buy them.

20

Am I the only one who remembers Dr. Tilson’s face being burned off to reveal the muscle and then bone when she was being composed? That earns an M-rating in my book.