And I think everyone would support a system that allows both.
A slider that with skill based at one end and connection priority on the other.
That way players could choose. But forcing people into purely random match making is doing a huge disservice to everyone to the left of the curve.
Agreed like i don’t get why they don’t give people the option to prioritize connection heck its one of the reasons people are asking for the ability to select region servers as some people are getting put into servers outside their region which all that does is provide a inaccurate skill calculation on that match as the person would deal with lag affecting their results in the match
I need to figure out why 343 put us where they did? What?
Not only that, I need to know what my other onyx buddy’s mmr is so i know if i can play with him without breaking the system. Because even though we’re similar CSR apparently we’re worlds appart in mmr. Oh wait, there’s no way to know.
I also added you so you can join and see if…
Well i have my answer although not from the person i asked the question to lol
No system is perfect. And people go out of their way to game the system. Either to grind a MMR higher than their station - or to smurf one lower so they can go all Shotzy on some poor unsuspecting schmuck.
People don’t get to Onyx by accident. Yet this same player can barely get a kill with you in games with you against slightly above average opposition. Same with your high Diamond buddy.
And let’s assume it’s all a genuine mistake. They were inadvertently over-ranked in S1. It can happen. But the simple fix is that they need to play enough games in S2 to re-rank themselves properly. Once they are mid-Platinum or so - you will get the more appropriate opponents.
And I guess your problem is that you have two buddies dragging you down. If it was just one you probably wouldn’t have noticed it. Just unlucky I guess.
And generally there is no need to know.
Your MMR and CSR will come together as the system becomes confident in your rank.
And the problem isn’t that your buddy is “worlds” away in MMR. It’s that they shouldn’t be. Their MMR is very likely to be close to the Onyx and D4 of last season - and that MMR is pulling in opponents higher than you want.
You need a bit more time for the system to realise it’s mistake and start to drag their rank down. It will take a few games. Just like you don’t want a chess grandmaster to lose their status through one bad patch.
Ok. I’ve got a few minutes for lunch at work so I dug a little deeper.
Your pal Illie. I dug into the past history a bit.
The last 10 games before S2 were in January. They played well. KDA’s of 0, 3, 0, 2, 2, 0, 0, 5, 12, and 7. Pretty much held their own.
You played a few of those games with KDA’s; 3, 3, -5, 3, -13, 1, and 6. Ok
T-man played a lot of those games too. But their form; -5, -13, -4, -10, -10, -7-, -8, and -17. Ouch. Nowhere near what a D4 should be producing.
So I propose that your current predicament is because;
You play a LOT of games with friends. A lot. Which is not bad in itself. But it makes it harder for the system to isolate out your individual rank. This is not unique to Halo.
Illie is paying now for the S1 over-ranking. 343 has since dropped everyone’s MMR back by 300 points. Maybe there is a hangover effect if you didn’t play in the second part of S2 (probably not). Plus, the three months off haven’t done Illie any favours - their KDA’s into S2 are a shadow of what they produced in S1.
You guys have created a monster in T-man. He seems to pretty much only play with better friends. The end result is that his MMR has been dragged up well and truly beyond his station. To some extent, you and Illie were able to cover for him. But now that Illie is off the boil you are left to do it on your own.
Interesting that T-man has dropped his S2 rating from D4 down to P5. And probably still falling. The system is starting to work him out. If you give Illie a bit more time to rerank as well (they are still in placement) then I think the system will have some more accurate MMR’s to work with.
I know you are frustrated. But you have two people who are probably over-ranked (one significantly). They system will probably need every one their 46 ranking games to fix it. But once it does you should see fairer opponents.
Living in New Zealand and I can’t even queue up for last spartan standing uuuh wut? Is this been down for a while or nope
MMR exists so higher ranked players have an easier time getting their rank back after seasonal resets.
That’s the only reason I can see it existing.
I saw a dude who was onyx last season quit all 10 of his qualifying matches for season 2 and he was still placed in at Diamond 5 with 3/4 his progress bar filled.
Meanwhile I’m here struggling per match just to get placed at platinum 4 where I was last season as well.
Now he will only need to win 4 maybe 5 matches to get back to onyx where as I will need to fight tooth and nails just to maintain diamond.
MMR exists to represent your skill level.
I responded in the other thread. The system would have zero data to change his ranking. But shock and horror. He went in Onyx and came out Onyx.
I think the moral of this story is that your skill level hasn’t change.
They are just better at the game than you. And me.
Your missing the point entirely dude.
A guy quit 10 qualifying games for a new season of ranked.
And yet they were placed in the top achievable rank you can obtain from the qualifiers.
What do you think about that?
Do you think that is a good thing to have happened?
I see the point you are trying to make.
Which is not normal behaviour.
But he goes into placement with his previous MMR.
Quitting penalises CSR but not MMR.
So he comes out of placement with pretty much the same MMR.
He went in Onyx. Came out Onxy. No harm done.
Honestly. I’m a bit meh about it. It’s an interesting anomaly at best.
Even if you penalised his MMR somehow, he comes out of placement with a wide MMR that will still fairly quickly find his rank. In a few days he will be whatever rank he needs to be.
Situations like this are outliers. They don’t necessarily mean that the main system is borked for the 99.9% of population playing properly,
The simplest solution, if we need one, is simply to make quit games not count as placement. You need to keep going.
And obviously the system needs to make a differentiation in the quit. If you quit early before any reasonable data - then yes, it can’t use this to make a judgement call on your MMR. But if the game has progressed to the point that it is obvious you are quitting because your team is losing - that should count against you.
Yes.
Because if you placed him lower and his MMR was lowered then he’d be able to waste literally everyone he plays.
This. Is. Laughable!
Every match should be fairly evenly matches, otherwise the whole point of the game is gone. Nobody plays games where your input doesn’t matter, since it’s already decided who is gonna win or lose because of how the match is setup.
The fact is that the SBMM is already incredably weak where there is a very big percentage of matches that are very one-sided (both in social 4v4, BTB and in ranked!). This (and ofcourse the challenges) are creating an immense quitting problem, because people don’t want to play one-sided matches. It’s boring and frustrating.
And the only ones who demand those matches are spoiled lil kids who have an extremely entitled mindset of “me better, me deserve other players to be my personal cannon fodder”
That is not how gaming works. That would destroy the playerbase.
On top of that, if you think that the difference between ranked and social purely is SBMM, then i even question if you have even played both, since there are multiple other differences. On top that the only difference that there even have to be is that ranked gives you a (visible) rank you earn by playing. That is what ranked is about. In fact: often ranked is the mode with the least SBMM, since then it would pair you on rank and not skill, so very skilled players who just start would just be but against/with low skilled players, since they still have the same rank (just like in MCC for instance). SBMM is in fact something that is much more a thing for social then for ranked.
And if you can’t stand that you are not entitled to have other people as your personal cannon fodder and can’t ruin their game: tough luck. And if you want to stomp: play bot bootcamp, that is literaly made for that.
Darwi has a mean headbutt, man. Watch it.
Anyway, I don’t really get the “no SBMM at all in social thing.” So, how do you want matches assembled? Randomly, or based on connection? So you want the system to just say “Yup, 4 onyx vs. 4 silvers sounds great”? That sounds awful.
You do realise that the closeness of the game can be independent of the player’s efforts and (most importantly) attitude.
I play a bunch of even games in Social settings. Had fun. Didn’t sweat.
It’s not difficult to understand - we don’t want them to be.
No, the only thing it authorises is taking away the licence for the segment of good players who are bullies (literally) and think it’s their God given Bogan right to stomp other players for fun.
You can. You just apply them differently (and there’s more 343 could do). And you rely on the way people play to have fun.
You do realise this is kind of enforcing the stereotype we are arguing against here.
Yet no one can see it.
You tell me who i shouldnt play with… how am i suppose to know if we have similar csr? I cant because its a broken system.
Btw another 1-10 night tonight! Got paired against some 1650s, 1700 onyx.
At this point the mmr should be calibrated, right? Even though it doesnt reset.
This literally makes no sense. If it is a person’s individual skill, him going negative and losing shouldnt give him a higher mmr. Thats broken
He also wins playing solo. So your guess is wrong
That’s just a lie. If it was true, we wouldn’t have started 2-12 or whatever.
Its literally been this the whole time. It needs 46 more games to fix the issue it created after 46 games? Makes no sense. As ive stated, we’ve played hundreds.
Its a bad, broken system dude. Also you didnt join when i invited you tonight.
I would never tell anyone who they should or shouldn’t play with. That’s up to you. Whatever brings you the most joy.
But you have to be aware that playing in a squad, especially almost solely, is going to confuse your individual ranks.
We know that people deliberately manipulate the system with squads to help them rank up. So it makes sense that people could also affect their ranking / matchmaking inadvertantly.
I think I mentioned the 46 games that TS2 needs. Not for everyone. But if you guys are still “over-ranked” from S1 then it will need every one of those games for each of you.
By the look of the results your MMR has recalibrated. You’ve played just under 40 games this season? Which is enough. You should be close. And your performance in those last 10 games or so looks admirable.
Illi needs more time. They have only played 17 games. They’ve dropped from Onyx to D1 and may have a bit to go (in terms of MMR if not CSR). The system still has a way to go to get them right.
Trash has played more than enough games… but still has huge question marks over performance. Looking back over your last 10 games (where you went 1 and 9) - their KDA is -16, -12, -10, -13, 0, -11, -14, -6, -5.
This is going to make it very hard to win games.
You say they hold their own when playing solo. So I imagine they are not adjusting their play style for your team.
I know when I play with my Gold buddies I have to be the alpha Spartan. I have to be aggressive and protective.
It’s different from when I play solo and just try and be a team player.
But when I play with my sons (both Onyx) I have to play completely differently again. Mostly I try not to die. I need to move with them for protection. My contribution is in assists and sacrificing myself for the objective. I get to hold the Oddball a lot.
I don’t think Trashy is making the same concessions.
So, if you want to know why you are still losing we come back to our previous discussion;
You are playing as a consistent squad. That makes it harder. The system relies on picking out individuals from squads… and it’s easier if the squads are regularly mixed. And in some cases some players can milk a higher rank than they deserve (sometimes deliberately, sometimes inadvertently).
You may not have been subjected to the great MMR reset of S1. We can’t be sure, but if your early S1 MMR’s were used to seed your placement in S2 that wouldn’t be pretty. I’d hope 343 wouldn’t let through to the keeper though.
Illi is probably still a tad over-rated. Still pulling in harder opponents than they should be. This seems to be settling and should get better over their next 20-25 games (they’re not even half way into their re-rank). Their total KDA over the 9 games was -2 (for reference yours was about 40).
Trashy is under performing. Sounds like they aren’t playing their role in your squad. I know KDA doesn’t tell the whole story - but you can’t cover for someone going minus double figures nearly EVERY game.
Google it.
And just maybe, just maybe, those poor souls who skipped the reset are left battling higher MMRs when they step into S2. Again, I doubt 343 would let that happen. But stranger things have happened.
No system is perfect. It’s certainly letting your squad down at the moment.
But I’m sure it will catch up. You need to give it time.
You could probably speed it up heaps if you all played 15 to 20 games solo.
Sorry. Didn’t see the invite. And neither of us would want the 200+ms ping.
Most people aren’t Onyx leveled, so I don’t see the issue with assembling games purely by random. I don’t play social to get a ranked experience and I dislike how the quality of my future games depend on my performance of the game prior.
Why exactly would that be terrible anyways? It’s not supposed to be a serious mode and people shouldn’t care about performing well in social. Again, if people cared about winning or avoiding being stomped by vastly better players, either they get better or play ranked.
The issue with social, right now, is that your in game performance drastically changes the type of people you play against. If I want to win, I’m punished. So either I continue to sweat if I want to win or I lose so that I don’t have to sweat anymore. It’s honestly not that fun being the top of the leaderboard 90% of the time.
The answer certainly isn’t tightly knit SBMM systems like there are now. It’s impossible to play with my friends without them getting 7-15 every match.
Simply, however matchmaking was in the MCC or at least before 343 screwed it up.
You don’t seem to understand. When I play social, the chances of my team winning is nearly zero unless I sweat. I shouldn’t be the top of my leaderboard when I’m barely trying whilst my team is being stomped.
Winning is fun, period. If I play social and I don’t try, my team can’t win because the SBMM uses bad players to counterbalance my personal skill. You could look through my record and not find a single game where I’m negative, or performing badly, and have my team win the game for me, as I do 90% for them.
The issue with this is that, when I carry, the results are heavily skewed on my teams leader board. I’ll be the only one who’s 20-5 in a slayer match and everyone is either even or negative. For BTB, the carry load is placed upon me and a few other guys. If I don’t try to win, we don’t win. (Winning isn’t guaranteed even when I blast the other team into oblivion)
I’m guessing you’re just not good enough of a player to understand how SBMM effects some players. (Looking at your profile, I seemed to be right in my assumption.)
What’s funny is that, in my current ranked bracket, I dominate much harder than I do in social. So I wonder what that says.
Because you don’t seem to be able to put yourself in the shoes of other players. Everybody wants to be able to play and not just being outgunned every time.
Ranked is simply just that you are measured a rank for your gameplay, that is the sole difference that is needed. So in principle social and ranked experience is the same, only ranked has the stress of having to perform.
Because people want to be able to play the game they got, no one likes to only function as cannon fodder. It wrecks the playerbase, because players would run away. This would in the end result in the same kind of matches, because those lesser players you demand playing against are no longer there. And it could also result in the entire game not being available anymore, because without those players it’s no longer profitable.
This is simply an entitlement argument “me better, me desreves lesser players as my slaves to stomp”
Lesser players are not your personal cannon fodder and they should deserve to be able to play without the stress of having to perform. Putting them against way better players is not playable and they will never realy get better that way, because they are way to outmatched and learning only works if your playing against players around your skill.
No you’re not, since SBMM gives you a chance to win every match. It would punish players who want/need (there are challenges that require you to win obviously) to win if there wasn’t.
Besides: according to your own argument you should play ranked then. Or doesn’t that apply to you and do you have to have other ‘rules’ then the rest?
If you didn’t sweat from the beginning, you wouldn’t have this, since the MMR is different for the different playlists, as we know know. So it’s your own sweating that put you there. Apparently you yourself can’t play relaxed, for what reason that might be.
Well, then you’re clearly not playing against equally skilled players and already playing with lesser players, are you? Otherwise that number would be way lower. Besides: this argument goes directly against your own demand of playing against lesser players, since then this would definitely happen…
It’s already not tight. It tries to balance the teams (and not even manage to do that often), but the skill gaps within teams are vast and often enormous. You yourself already basicly acknowledged that by saying your almost always the best player, wich you wouldn’t be if you were only playing against players your own skill.
According to your own previous statement: they either get good or play ranked then. Or does that again only apply to others and not you and your friends?
In MCC if you play with way lesser people, they also went deeply negative, because MCC also tried to balance matches. They might had a better skill in those MCC games.
So you are complaining about SBMM being to weak here. Otherwise you wouldn’t be paired with lesser players, but only players your own skill.
And that is why matches should be balanced, otherwise people would have 0 chance of winning.
Because you keep trying hard (sweating) from the beginning, so your MMR in that playlist is high. If you played ‘relaxed’ from the start you would have a lower MMR. And again: this is not a strict SBMM, since that would also limit the skill gaps within teams.
I know that feeling, Even though i am only an average player, i too have to do that often. That is because the skill gaps within teams are to big, because the SBMM is not that strict and therefore doesn’t limit those gaps to a narrow one.
BTB has the weakest SBMM of all, so it makes sense that you get that then. Here you see the importance of a better SBMM if you don’t want that.
This is a ridiculous statement. Because those lesser players in your matches know just as well. You might complain about having to carry to be able to win (wich without SBMM would mean having to heavy carry and still having no chance of winning), but those players are the ones who can’t have fun because they have no fighting chance. For them it is probably even less fun then for you.
On top of that: you don’t have to be an elite player to have to (heavy) carry to be able to win. I am an average player and have to do that often too.