That’s because it would kill you just to say its a broken system.
I dont need contradictory excuses (or guesses) for why it isnt working.
As i said before 343 hasnt earned the benefit of the doubt that this system is finely tuned and top tier quality.
I also forgot the desync issues on my list earlier.
Just played (edit) 4* solo games and got absolutely stomped both games. So much for accurate pairing. And yes, im going to have that mentality after all your justification and excuses for when i play with a group.
Just got placed in Diamond 4… got paired against 1680, D3, 1744, 1507. One 1527 on my team.
That’s going in solo. But our MMRs are comparable right? So i should get that 1600 onyx by playing against that every game, right?
I’ve been plenty critical of the system. Especially around the silly decision to put a number on the CSR. And H5’s use of “Champions”. etc.
I’m not sure which bit was contradictory.
Depends what you mean by “stomped”. And if we’re talking placement - they can be a bit up and down (which is part of the way the system is supposed to behave). Lots of wide skill curves (the system is unsure of actual ranks).
And, while I have no proof, I get the feeling that placement games tend to weight individual performance. If you lose but get a solid number of kills then the system protects your rank.
I think it’s just for placement games - and after that the system pushes the W/L influence a lot harder.
OK (and well done).
Your MMR curve will still be quite wide this early into the season. And your CSR (Diamond 4) is at the left hand end of that curve (three standard deviations from the mean). The mean of your curve is more than likely deep into Onyx territory!
My placement was P2. I am confident from last season I am actually around a P6. So it makes sense to assume that my current MR curve is stretching from P2 to D4 (ie. a mean around P6). And that fits the range of opponents I seem to be coming up against.
And the highest placement you can get is D4 (previously D1). So you can safely assume that your MMR curve is peaking low Onyx.
If you play consistently your MMR curve will narrow. By somewhere between 30 and 50 games you will be locked into your rank. A narrow curve that is relatively resistant to change (but not as badly as H3 used to).
And by then, most of your opponents will also have fairly confident rankings - and match making will have better data to work with.
I would imagine so.
If your curve continues to narrow around an Onyx level mean then your CSR will climb quite fast. The very good players can get to Onyx in a handful of games. Others will take 20+. But in the very beginning you’ll see your CSR jump by 15 for a win and drop very little for a loss. Unless you do something silly for the system to lose confidence and start to rethink your curve.
Where i go in with low MMR teammates and grt wrecked because of it. Yet…
Other people do it in their favor (according to you.)
You alao ignored the part where I got placed against 3 mid-high level onyx as Diamond 4. Also, I got placed there losing 8 of 10 matches. And if thats the highest placement… lets circle back to the point where 343 consistently pairs me where im clearly expected to lose.
Well which is it? 
Depends on the players lol.
Like I said some people thrive with a team others don’t. I meant it from a fun perspective not a win perspective. Everyone should in theory be hovering near the 50% line but some deviate below others above. Some friends if I played with them we would lose way more I think. Others win way more. Some of them just clutch up and the others are choke artists.
What I’ve gathered from you and Darwi on this post is as follows:
-You both like the mmr system
-Players that are high who play with low will consistenly wreck people
-Players that are high who play with low will consistenly get slapped
-It aligns your mmr and csr even though it pairs you against players wildly above you in csr whether it be solo or group
-Even id you’re placed in low Diamond while playing mid-high onyx from the start you’ll eventually make up to mid-high onyx while trading off games. (Doubtful)
-Just using one CSR number for matching wouldn’t work because it would create mismatches even though the current system also creates wild mismatches
Edit - 343 has proven to drop the ball on basically everything but they absolutely nailed this
-And my favorite, I dont do enough to help the team.
This was a good talk. My favorites are the 2nd and 3rd bullets.
Boosters yes, legit no. The Onyx player will consistently do extremely well is what Darwi is saying. Not necessarily win. Matches should still be 50%.
The lower player yes, the better player no. Matches should still be 50%.
I already explained why your situation is unique. Most player data shows trends of parties winning more games. Your teamwork (with this friend) isn’t up to scratch so you underperform with your friend against expected win rate which goes against majority of player data. Outliers will always exist.
They aren’t gonna change the system for the 5% when it works for the 95%.
inb4 it doesn’t work for the 95%… They have data trends for a reason and they adjust metrics accordingly. They have already made changes to sbmm and MMR since launch.
That’s factually accurate. You can even do it losing more games than you win.
There’s apparently a way for people to ensure they play mid level guys, like gold and platinum players. Look at the top guy on halo tracker crossplay and examine his games. Pretty much every game is against mid level players, he’s solo searching, doesn’t have a friend bringing in lower MMR players, and it appears almost every game is 4v3 in his favor. I was 2nd best in the game with him, literally in the game and in general in terms of past csr. The guys we faced were bad too, they had no business playing me, let alone this guy.
The system literally is worthless when manipulation is clearly going on.
Not really.
I haven’t worked out if you are;
a) Being deliberately belligerent.
b) Trying to this into some sort of humorous anti-343 post.
c) Genuinely unable to grasp the concepts.
There is no contradiction here.
Ranking systems don’t like wide ranges of skill. They work very quickly for 1v1, but take a lot longer for teams. In a 16 person FFA playlist it can find your rank in as few as 3 games. But 4v4 takes nearly 50. And 8v8 closer to 100.
This is because it’s hard to isolate the skill of the individual from the team.
And if you deliberately introduce a wide range of skills (like you are) it gets even harder. And then if the system preferentially matches you against similar squads (a design decision) it gets even harder still. The ranking system is going to struggle. And matching because of that.
And then Ken is right. Some teams just don’t work well together. And putting a wide range of skills into the mix is going to attenuate that. Weak links in the strategy / structure are going to stand out like a sore thumb. Not all “good” players have the skills to carry bad players. Some operate better as lone wolves. And not all “bad” players can adjust to high skilled opposition - they just don’t have the skill set to survive / contribute.
And I am also right. Your situation is probably worsened by playing teams who are manipulating the system by using smurfs and sandbaggers. They look the same as your team on paper but they don’t function the same. And it seems to be a popular strategy. There are lots of them out there at the moment.
These two things are not contradictions. They are different factors. And both help to explain your lowly win %.
You don’t seem to like either explanation though - seemingly preferring the tin foil hat option that 343 just hates you.
Again. Your MMR is a curve. Look it up on google.
You have just finished placement. Your curve is wide and covers a range of possible ranks. The system will match you across the width of your curve. Over time, with consistent play, your curve will narrow.
You curve at the moment could easily stretch from D4 to mid-Onyx. With a mean of D6 to low-Onyx. So this is who you will be matched against. And surprise, surprise, it fits the description of who you are currently playing against.
And you mentioned you have been Onyx before? So why are you so surprised that your curve would be in that vicinity?
Your CSR is conservative. It starts at the left hand side of the curve. Hence the D4 you were given after placement. But as your curve narrows (the system gets more confident in your rank) the left hand edge and the middle get closer and closer together.
After a while (by 50 games) your CSR and MMR are virtually sitting on top of each other.
But if you are struggling against these opponents - don’t panic. Your curve will narrow and move to the left. You will then get opponents that match your new (lower) skill level. You just need to give it another dozen or so games to settle.
Not ignoring anything.
I clearly explained that D4 is the left hand side of your curve.
The middle is obviously well into Onyx.
Losing 8/10 placement games is not a huge factor. You go into them with your previous MMR (which I think you said was Onyx). And placement seems to weight individual performance above the W/L (just my anecdotal observation).
It’s not a case of 343 trying to make you lose. It’s the ranking system giving you every opportunity to perform at the level it is expecting you to be.
It’s the same as a chess grandmaster or a Tennis pro - you don’t want a system that drops them 100 places just because of one (or two) upsets.
Just relax. If you are no longer Onyx material the system will soon adjust. Your curve will narrow and move to the left. And you will start to be matched against Plat / Diamond players (or whatever).
If you are specifically talking about an old fashioned rank sorting system where you have a simple CSR that goes up and down a set amount on a win or a loss without taking into account the skill of your opponent?
Then yes. These systems are slow. Very slow. We’re talking 100’s of games. And in the process they create all sorts of horrendous mismatches (especially early).
It paired me WITH people in the low diamonds seemingly on the lower side of the curve. And we got slapped. That’s part of the problem.
Doesn’t make sense if its trying to create even games. Why would losing not matter? If its supposedly even, it should matter. So this system more accurate creates even matches but doesn’t and doesnt believe in itself enough to value wins and losses. Got it. And placement matches basically start you off where you were before. Its not like its random… its using the mmr which clearly doesnt reset. So it should be finding even matches and valuing wins regardless, no?
What was the average MMR of the two teams?
Just looking at your team-mate’s CSR is just as tricky as your own. Where are they in their ranking journey? What is the width of their MMR curve?
It’s a new season. I know pretty much everyone I’ve played in the last week or so is mid-placement. Things are going to be a bit over the place while everyone settles into their ranks.
You seem to be getting “slapped” a lot. It’s a bit like Goldilocks’ porridge. Your MMR is a curve - some people will be to the left of their curve, some to the right, and some in the middle. Sounds like you are to the left (over-ranked) and currently your games are pitched too high. They will settle.
Placement games are supposed to be volatile. Your MMR curve is made wide again so that the system has a chance to re-rank you. It’s the fastest way to sort things out again. Think of it as the polar opposite of Halo 3’s rank locking (where curves became so narrow that they wouldn’t move).
It’s one of the reasons they hide your CSR for the first 10 games. It’s jumping around a fair bit.
And because the games are volatile it makes sense to change the weightings for performance vs W/L. Again, this is just my anecdotal opinion. Lots of people have reported losing placement games but still ranking high if their individual performance is ok.
The metric is probably kills/minute - and it makes sense in terms of identifying an individual who is a big fish in a small pond. If you want some more information on the reasoning behind this google the TrueSkill2 discussion paper by Microsoft.
Post placement your curve narrows, you are generally playing equally matched opponents, and then the W/L becomes more important. As it should.
The idea of the system is to rank you as quickly and accurately as possible.
So it makes sense to use your previous MMR. Or if it’s your first time in a new playlist then assume a similar MMR from another playlist.
The key though is that your MMR curve is made wide again. It is volatile and free to move.
For regular players it’s a blip. They place again. Their curve is wide. They get a few hard games. A few softer ones. And after a dozen or so games their MMR curve is narrowing in pretty much the same spot it was before… and they start playing the same quality of opponents they did before.
For some players though, it’s a genuine chance to rank up quickly. They have genuinely improved, but late in the season when their MMR was a bit rank locked. It’s not as bad as H3 but it does still happen.
And for others, who have dropped off. It’s a down ranking. And I guess for anyone who’s only rank was the first half of S1 - it could be a bit of rude awakening (the MMR’s were recalibrated mid-season).
Yes and no.
Remember your MMR is a curve (range) and not a fixed number.
The mean of your MMR is the same - but the range is now wider.
The system is giving you every opportunity to take advantage of this and rank up.
Don’t worry. The “slappings” are only temporary. You will drift back down the rankings shortly.
How so? Its using your mmr for matching. You get “ranked” and it continues to use the mmr.
0-5 to start the season now.
edit 0-6 since ranked.
And when i say slapped, i mean we dont stand a chance… 5-2 or 1 in flag. 50-35 in slayer. Its broken. You wont convince me this is the best it can do
So the system is incapable of reconizing 30% win rate and saying, hey something isn’t right? Interesting. It cant say, wow losing 8 in a row, clearly the matching isnt working.?
Hmmm such such a perfect matching system it sure seems limited.
I’m not sure how else I can explain it?
One more go…
Grab a pen and a piece of paper. Draw a little graph with a normal curve on it. Put a 1400 on the left of the curve (Diamond 4). Put a 1700 (Onyx) on the right of the curve. And then put 1500 in the middle for the mean.
This could very well be what your MMR curve looks like now.
The system thinks you are probably a 1500… but could be anywhere from 1400 to 1700. Or whatever.
At the moment it happy to match you across the breadth of the curve. Mainly around the middle, but all options are open. And it clearly describes the level of opponents you have been playing against.
And we don’t know your curve could be a lot wider than this. Or narrower. And the same for your team-mates and/or opponents. The system is working with a degree of uncertainty. It’s frustrating now, but because of this inbuilt uncertainty it will help to find your actual rank much faster.
Now, pick the MMR you think you are at. Draw another curve there. Taller, and much narrower (spread by 10-15 points). That is what your curve will gradually morph into as the system gains confidence in your rank. As you can see, the system will now try and match you against a much narrower range of opponents.
For -yoink- sake. It’s only been 5 games. You have to give the system a chance to sort you out. As mentioned, mathematically the system needs 46 games to sort out an individual’s rank in a 4v4 playlist.
Some people will be over-rated early and face a run of losses.
Some people will be under-rated early and face a run of wins.
Some, it will be just right, and they will be balanced from the start. But keep in mind that they will also face opponents too hard or too soft while their curve is wide.
In the end I don’t need to. The system has been validated mathematically. Just because you don’t understand how it works doesn’t make it any less valid.
The onus is on you to come up with a better system.
It’s amazing how people complain that the system “clearly doesn’t work” over a sample size of half a dozen games.
Even though said system is quite open about how it needs closer to 50.
And then these same people suggest going back to an archaic system that is known to take 100’s, if not 1000’s, of games to sort a population’s ranking.
Half a dozen? Try half a thousand with a 35% win rate. Thats solo and with a group.
And as i stated they clearly dont reset the mmr so it shouldnt need 45 games every season. The mmr is there sooooooooooo.
What’s funny is that it makes absolutely no sense to reset CSR but not MMR in the current system. It’s part of why nobody really grinds Onyx rank anymore, because if you are Onyx 2000 you are going to be playing Onyx 2000 level games all the way from Diamond 5 to Onyx 2000. It’s miserable and makes absolutely no sense.
There is absolutely zero incentive in this game to grind out in ranked, and it’s all because of how bad the SBMM implementation is.
Thats why MMR should be removed from ranked and the games should be based on CSR.
Amen. I guess they think that adds “replayability” but it just feels like a slogfest. I’d rather be old school and just keep the ranks the whole time… though that would be easier to implement IF THERE WAS MORE THAN 1(.5) RANKED PLAYLISTS. Sheesh what a bad idea. And maybe career progression. What do we know though, right?
There’s not a lot of point in fully resetting your MMR. The whole idea of the system is to re-rank you as quickly and as accurately as possible. Feeding your previous MMR back into the system would speed things up considerably.
Your MMR curve is at least made wide again. That allows it to move up or down freely depending on which way your skill level is moving.
I suspect (and this is purely my own theory) that they do actually move your MMR back to a mean of 900 and a standard deviation around 300 - but they use your previous MMR to find starting opponents. This helps to push your MMR quickly in that direction.
Ranking systems really shouldn’t let you “grind”.
At least not for extra CSR.
It would heavily favour the highest ranked players on any particular server. They would be free to keep grinding as the system struggled to find them superior opponents.
I think it makes a lot of sense. You are an Onyx 2000. You are playing at that level.
The system only makes you a D5 because there is still a little bit of uncertainty (your MMR curve is wide). Play a few games at Onyx 2000 level and your curve narrows to that point.
System win! You have been accurately ranked, all while giving you a window of opportunity to prove if you deserve to rank up (or down).
Besides, if the system knows you are Onyx 2000. And you know you are Onyx 2000. Why would you want to play D5’s?
The incentive is to get better and improve your rank. Although this is hard to do.
If you beat higher ranked opponents you will rank up.
I agree that we need something to grind for. It’s insane we don’t have a skill based XP system running alongside the skill ranks.
Isn’t that a separate discussion?