Ranking system feels odd

[Ryan_lfc_92]

@Darwi

But it is accurate. You may not like it. But it ranks you to point where it can accurately predict the game result AND your number of kills.

how can it do this if like you said, chemistry is a whole different kettle of fish. sounds like wishful thinking. Also if this was true, matchmaking would actually do a decent job 99% of the time.

@Darwi

I would have thought the current system encourages winning.

You win and your CSR goes up.

You beat a higher ranked opponent and both your CSR and MMR go up.

If your MMR goes up it pulls even harder on your CSR to go up.

There’s a pattern here. Keep winning and everything goes up!

In a perfect world sure. But like I said, the system is easily abused. Its kinda funny. players abuse it because matchmaking sucks and matchmaking sucks more because players abuse it. mmr cant be abused if you rank up csr soley on winning and losing, then matchmaking suddenly becomes much better and thats worth letting a diamond player become onyx on a onyx team. We can look at other stats to determine how good an onyx player is. Csr shouldnt be taken so seriously, thats mmr’s job.

[CapacityRain830]

As the win/loss ratio has huge impact on rank premade groups become much more important. Also uneven matches (for example 3 vs 4) have a negative impact on rank although unfair.

[GenghisKhaann]

@Darwi

What they underestimated is how much people hate being penalised for losing.

Underestimated is giving them too much credit. There’s a paper called Prospect Theory: An analysis of Decision Under Risk which uses a lot of math to basically say people are more sensitive to losses and tend to think in terms of probabilities - if I’m likely to lose are the losses incurred acceptable. If not then they probably won’t risk the biscuit. This isn’t some cutting edge academic paper - it was released in 1979 and I remember covering some not so math heavy flavor of the paper in a gen ed psych class in college.

The point is the current system seems to lean into sizeable rank loss with incremental gains. I get there’s math going on behind the scene but all people see is a bar with a red or green indicator showing how much rank was lost/gained respectively. When the loss from 1 match is consistently equivalent with the gain from 3-4 wins is when I start to feel frustrated with the ranked system and the people behind it.

The Paper: http://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings/Behavioral_Decision_Theory/Kahneman_Tversky_1979_Prospect_theory.pdf

[HEART_n_S0UL]

The loss in rank is especially unfair if consistently it is because it is a 3 on 4, which is WAY MORE frequent then a reputable system should allow

[Darwi]

@Ryan_lfc_92

how can it do this if like you said, chemistry is a whole different kettle of fish. sounds like wishful thinking.

I guess it works because the “chemistry” is the same for both sides.

And where a squad is playing, and winning, there is a weighting against them. That weighting is calculated from five years of past data so they can see how heavy it needs to be.

Matchmaking is doing a decent job. Don’t know if it’s 99% of the time - that’s unrealistic. And the lower populations wouldn’t be helping. But if the results of matches are matching prediction then it’s doing it’s job. And they have the luxury of changing the weighting vs squads if and when it’s needed.

But if by “chemistry” you want to be matched with players complementing your personal game style… just how exactly do you propose that?

@Ryan_lfc_92

the system is easily abused.

I don’t know if it’s “easy”. And it sounds like a painfully slow way to gain CSR.

And hopefully it’s been curtailed with the recent sqaud ranking limits. I’m not sure it’s quite as attractive a grind to pair up with Platinum players as it was with Bronze or Silver.

@Ryan_lfc_92

mmr cant be abused if you rank up csr soley on winning and losing,

I’m still lost with what you arguing here.

CSR is pretty much based on winning and losing. There is no personal performance taken into account. The amount you gain or lose is moderated by your MMR and the relative skill of your opponent.

@Ryan_lfc_92

…then matchmaking suddenly becomes much better

How though? Even if you change the way you gain CSR your MMR is still unchanged in the background.

@Ryan_lfc_92

and thats worth letting a diamond player become onyx on a onyx team.

I really don’t think it is.

And I’m pretty sure 99,99% on genuine Onyx players would disagree.

And I’m Diamond. I often play with Onyx players. And I don’t want to be Onyx unless I deserve it. And I know I don’t - I can’t consistently win a 1v1 with those guys - so I know I’m not up to scratch.

@Ryan_lfc_92

Csr shouldnt be taken so seriously, thats mmr’s job.

Again. Your CSR is your visible rank. It’s what you’ve earnt.

And you keep talking like they are separate things. They are not. Your CSR is constantly chasing the left hand edge of your MMR curve. On a mature account that curve is narrow and the numbers are pretty much the same.

Sure, the CSR can drift away, but we are rarely talking more than 15 points (you know, the amount you occasionally lose on a closely fought loss).

Players who have played 50 or more games can look at their CSR and pretty much know what their MMR is. If you are Diamond 3 then your MMR is going to be Diamond 3. You CSR may be a few points above or below… but it’s close enough.

@Ryan_lfc_92

We can look at other stats to determine how good an onyx player is.

Why? When we look at the ranking we want to know what level of player we are looking at. Who they can go 1v1 with and win 50% of the time.

And divisions are set up so that you have a 75:25 rate. So an average Diamond player will beat an average Platinum player in 3 out of 4 contests.

@GenghisKhaann

I get there’s math going on behind the scene but all people see is a bar with a red or green indicator showing how much rank was lost/gained respectively. When the loss from 1 match is consistently equivalent with the gain from 3-4 wins is when I start to feel frustrated with the ranked system and the people behind it.

Agree entirely.

The focus on a handful of CSR points is creating a toxic grind and undue stress.

They need to change the scale to something less stressful. And cap it with a maximum rank. It would fix so many problems with a simple stroke.

@GenghisKhaann

The Paper: http://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings/Behavioral_Decision_Theory/Kahneman_Tversky_1979_Prospect_theory.pdf

Thanks. It was a bit of “light” reading over breakfast in the airport lounge this morning.

I wonder if the gambling bit comes into play. Just like they describe gamblers not accepting losses and taking risks… do Halo players change the way they play on the back of perceived CSR losses?

[Ryan_lfc_92]

sorry man, if you cant understand my point by now, then theres no point trying to further explain it plus i dont have the energy to counter every one of your arguements.

also you talked about xp earlier. In halo 3, only winning gave xp and it was really cool to rank up the medals based on winning. most played the game properly. Another reason infinites matchmaking sucks is because of the challenge system as it makes people play the game incorrectly. The challenge system should be a little side thing but they made it the main way to unlock the battle pass. winning should be more important in unlocking the battlepass.

[GenghisKhaann]

@Darwi

They need to change the scale to something less stressful. And cap it with a maximum rank. It would fix so many problems with a simple stroke.

Elegance doesn’t seem to be something 343 has in spades. More and more it seems like they’ve cemented themselves as the clumsy dancer who doesn’t know how to dance but gosh darn they get an A+ for effort… They get an F- on execution but at least they’re trying.

@Darwi

I wonder if the gambling bit comes into play. Just like they describe gamblers not accepting losses and taking risks… do Halo players change the way they play on the back of perceived CSR losses?

I can only speak for myself - yes. Typically it’s a result of my frustration overwhelming me. It’s something I’m actively working on since that deficit isn’t isolated to Infinite. Regardless, I notice I tend to either go full Leroy Jenkins or start playing like a feline. It’s either a reckless attempt to gain back CSR or staunch the bleeding… I typically end up calling the session and doing something else at this point since I recognize my mental isn’t there.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

tbh, if we did rank up based up on wins, there will probably be instancces where a gold player gets better at the game, beccomes a diamond skill level but the game still puts him at gold due to cconstantly balanced matches making him unable rank up higher than he is so my idea wouldnt work either. everyones ranks would be pretty much locked after the placement matches

My favourite ranking system is fifas. it has 10 divisions i think( havent played fifa in a long time). each division is its own skiil level. Basically you know how people hate skill based matchmaking? fifa is like 50% luck 50% sbmm. When youre in a division you (i think) you randomly face people in that division. each season is 10 games. you win 7 out of 10, you get promoted. you lose 7 out of 10 you get depromoted. this system would only work for solo players.

To make it work for people squading up then players would need different new ranks and have to share rank divisions and be depending on each other and anytime they squad up wiith different people they would have to start all over again.

343 wouldnt have to reset ranks every 3 months either as the system is doing it dynamically every 10 games played.

fiffas system did have some issues as good players get matched with bad players in the early divisions until the good players get promoted which means 10 placement matches would still need to be used when players start up new squads or play the game for the first time.

the more divisions there is, the tighter the skill based matchmaking would be but the longer matchmaking would also be. i havent really thought this idea out that well. i guess people in different divisions could also play each other if the lower teams division mmr is similar to the higher diviision teams mmr its matching.

[Darwi]

@Ryan_lfc_92

everyones ranks would be pretty much locked after the placement matches

It’s very important that matchmaking allows the player’s skill a chance to breathe. You can’t lock them into purely 50:50 matches. They have shown graphs at GCC how you can rank lock everyone if you are not careful - beautiful straight line graphs though

You can do this either randomly - chuck in easier or harder matches - or based on form. WIn a few and then get a chance to stretch your skill. Lose a few and get some softer opposition.

The danger is what we are already seeing now. People win a few games and feel they should rank up. So the system gives them a chance to flex their muscles against tougher opposition. Invariably they lose this tougher match and give further proof to the system that it has their correct ranking. The player, however, accuses the system of forcing a 50:50 win rate and locking them in.

@Ryan_lfc_92

My favourite ranking system is fifas.

Sounds like a fun system.

10 divisions sounds a bit wide though?

I’d be worried that the skill gap between the top and bottom of each div? But then again, that’s the nature of real Soccer comps isn’t it - lots of teams and a big difference in class between 1 and last.

And 10 games doesn’t sound like enough to prove that you’ve improved in skill? Wouldn’t there be too many players ranking up and down on a bit of (un)lucky form.

I was actually talking to a work colleague about gaming earlier in the week. He said he played Soccer on the PS4. I’m not sure which game specifically (I hate soccer, so wasn’t particularly focussed), but he said he would throw a few games and play in the lower leagues where he could dominate. Could that be a similar system?

PS. I called him a Smurf. He’s from Burma - so I then had to explain what a Smurf was.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

@Darwi

The danger is what we are already seeing now. People win a few games and feel they should rank up. So the system gives them a chance to flex their muscles against tougher opposition. Invariably they lose this tougher match and give further proof to the system that it has their correct ranking. The player, however, accuses the system of forcing a 50:50 win rate and locking them in.

The current system doesnt satisfy peoples lizard brains and is easily abused. there needs to be an improved system with a better illusion that also cant be abused

@Darwi

10 divisions sounds a bit wide though?

not really, because you can possibly rank up insanely quickly similar to placement matches.

@Darwi

I’d be worried that the skill gap between the top and bottom of each div?

I guess thats where the luck comes in. I feel like 10 divisions is enough to divide skill though for fair matches

@Darwi

And 10 games doesn’t sound like enough to prove that you’ve improved in skill? Wouldn’t there be too many players ranking up and down on a bit of (un)lucky form.

thats the fun of it but players who get promoted luckily would find them selves getting more difficult matches in the new season especially if there luck goes against them.

@Darwi

I was actually talking to a work colleague about gaming earlier in the week. He said he played Soccer on the PS4. I’m not sure which game specifically (I hate soccer, so wasn’t particularly focussed), but he said he would throw a few games and play in the lower leagues where he could dominate. Could that be a similar system?

this could be possible, but a safeguard could be put in place where it just starts matching you with mmr instead of divisions if youre destroying teams and now that person has to grind longer up the divisions for trying to cheat the system. This safeguard would encourage you to play your best in you placement matches. I feel like this system works to what we already have but this has a different illusion that promotes winning at all costs or get ranked down.

[DeeperGnu613]

Still sitting on my diamond 1. Ups and downs every day, kinda curse idk:)

[Ahdult]

I also think a pregame lobby rank show would help immensely to help people understand what is going on. I’ll randomly get a pro in some of my games and get spanked and not even notice until after the match. Having gamer tags and rank level prior to the game would really help me know what type of lobby I am going into. Because high diamond games compared to low onyx games compared to high onyx games all require a different playstyle. Yet I will play all 3 in a random gaming session.

[Darwi]

@Ryan_lfc_92

there needs to be an improved system with a better illusion

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there.

The CSR is all about the illusion.

And personally, I think the easiest illusion would be to simply reduce the scale.

@Ahdult

I also think a pregame lobby rank show would help immensely to help people understand what is going on.

It could very well do that.

But I think they used to have a problem with people quitting out of games they deemed to be “too hard”.

[Amoney19866186]

Hypothetically what if D1 is just your level? Your better than a large portion but many are ahead of you. Do people feel like they should continually rank up just from playing? Far and away people overestimate their skill and I suppose fragile egos cause players to hate the system.

[DeeperGnu613]

Most of a time yeah, but for example I played a couple of days ago and did pretty good I believe, just felt it if you know what I mean. Good kda, best among both teams, best assists, less deaths, good accuracy, but in the end we loose the whole evening game after game after game. Sometimes it was kinda bad luck, sometimes enemy team was better as a team(random guys or real team) , sometimes we played 3vs4. It’s pity at least:)
Time after time I see some high diamond guys like 5 or 6 and they are playing not so good to be honest, sometimes onyx guys feels kinda off to me too.
In the end I’m ok with how system works. It’s much better than H5 system where no matter what you doing if team loose you will loose your rank and the opposite.