Ranking system feels odd

I played a match of slayer 4 vs 4 with the highest score and only received a slight boost to rank then I get tossed into a game of me alone against 4 opponents and manage to get the highest score again but ultimately loses the match (of course) and receives a big loss in rank.

Game is great but its ranking system I dont know.

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Yeah it’s garbage, everyone already knows it but you’ll probably still get a few people coming into this thread to defend it.

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Just faced a team with one onyx and 3 plats. One plat left when they started losing bad and I gained nothing but would’ve tanked my whole rank if somehow i’d lost. Its really undefendable, even from a statistical standpoint its complete nonsense

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CSR change doesn’t look at personal performance.

It goes up with a win and down with a loss.

How much it goes up or down depends on the relative skill of your opponent (more for an upset) and the pull of your MMR.

Your K, D, K/D, K-D, or KDA are not taken into account.

So when you went up a little bit for the win it would have been because you beat a team lower ranked than you and/or your CSR has drifted above your MMR.

Then, when you lost and took a big CSR hit, this would be because you lost to a team you shouldn’t have and/or your CSR is above your MMR.

There is a weighting on the MMR for personal performance for kills/min and (to a lesser extent) deaths/min. And changes to the MMR can affect your CSR change in the next game.

Don’t need to defend it. Just explain it.

Although I agree that 343 have dropped the ball a bit with the CSR system. They could reduce the scale and instantly make it less grindy and frustrating.

Your whole rank?

Isn’t the maximum set at 15 CSR per game? And that would only be if the opponents were ranked lower than you and your CSR was higher than your MMR.

But the risk is low. How often do you lose a 4v3?

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Its not losing a 4v3, their system is that they play and if they’re winning then they all stay but if they start losing then one leaves and tanks the MMR or CSR losses for the team. Its an extreme case of rubberbanding but i’m facing the rubberbanding nonstop. Also I still don’t buy into the high kpm = better player in these modes especially. The knowledge that its how you start moving up the ranks more consistently and faster also seems to have messed with a bunch of peoples heads since you’ll see people be desperate for getting more kills over doing the objective or giving support and instead go for kill steals. The condition the games is in atm doesn’t support the ranking system at all

I agree that it’s becoming an increasing problem.

I haven’t really had a chance to play this last week or so… so I don’t know if the recent changes to squads has helped or not.

The only consolation is that the effect on your MMR is likely to be just as small as on theirs. You may take a hit on CSR if it’s slightly inflated, and that’s frustrating, but you were probably going to lose it on the next “genuine” loss anyway.

If we had a reduced scale on the CSR, eg. 1 to 100, you wouldn’t have even noticed it.

Keep in mind it’s only a weighting.

And the maths behind it sound solid. It’s based on millions of games of data.

And when you think about it, it’s an entirely different metric to K/D or KDA etc. It simply reflects your skill in 1v1 vs your opponent.

You can’t fake it.

I can, and have, come out of games vs Onyx players (I’m Diamond) with a K/D of 2 or more - but there is no way in Hell I could generate a 1.5 KPM against higher skilled opponents.

And sadly they have no concept how it’s actually working.

I’ve seen teams delay the objective to milk kills. Completely unaware that they may be getting more kills, but their actual KPM is dropping (especially when I start moving away from their protected Oddball).

And milking that KPM vs lower opposition isn’t helping them. Going 3.0 KMP vs a lower ranked team may help you rank a little bit faster - but if you want to rank UP you have to show the system you can go 1.5 or more against teams ranked above you. And that’s not easy.

And it could all be fixed by 343 in two easy steps.

  1. Change the scale of the CSR to reduce toxic grinding.

  2. Explain the system. Put up a detailed FAQ. Put one of the engineers on Waypoint to post and explain (like Menke used to). Use the pre and post game loading screens to explain the ranking system. It’s appalling that player’s are still unaware of how the CSR is allocated post game.

Josh used to generate images for people showing their MMR over time. It had each playlist’s MMR with the global value in the background. He could also look up your KPM vs ranks. How hard would it be to automate this process and allow us to look it up ourselves? It would be both informative and educational.

Got to diamond 1 today and very happy. The system isn’t perfect but if you get good at being a teammate you can rank up. It’s a lot of fun at times and frustrating others.
Understand that if you lose a lot of csr it’s because your not that good and probably ranked higher than your mmr. To continue ranking you need to beat people better than you.

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I think where people get frustrated is when their CSR oscillates around their MMR. Grinding a few CSR for each win and then losing it on the next loss. We’re only talking a handful of (relatively meaningless) CSR points - but people take each one to heart.

They aren’t losing this CSR because they are “not that good” - but because they haven’t done anything to convinced the system that they “are actually that much better”.

And once again. If 343 changed the scale of the CSR system then this problem is pretty much swept under the rug.

Yep. And you have to be patient. It will happen over days as opposed to a few games.

Yes I appreciate your posts on the subject and it helped me be rational and focus on just improving in general not stressing over each loss.

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The issue with this I feel is that the maths and numbers might look right within a vacuum then there might look like there is a precedent for what “makes” an onyx player. But in reality I want to use the last two matches I played, one an oddball match where everyone refused to pickup the ball so they could farm up kills and then the next a KOTH match where 2 players had <8 seconds ring time to farm up kills.
Both these matches are completely ridiculous but they’ve sadly become a norm and it brings the main issue I have of rubberbanding to light and why these onyx players bringing plats to diamond are so successful, because most teams aren’t focusing on doing the objective anymore and actually winning the game.

This is an issue since no one can see anyones rank before the match and very rarely does it feel that i’m placed in a match where i’m facing equal or greater teams making moving up rank much harder than going down.
I reached onyx in season 1 without manipulating my CSR in socials and it felt alot smoother due to being able to have more balanced matchups in terms of rank but since the population must be like 1/5th of what it was then. I’ve seen you quote some guy that said its harder to guide the flag to base rather than just carry it but honestly the opposite is true in the current enviroment.

And this is because of 343’s radio silence. All they have to do is come out and say that raw kills means nothing.

Or even better provide us with feedback so that we can see our kpm vs opponent skill rank. It won’t take long for people to see that simply milking kills or K/D is mostly counter productive to the win.

Instead they come out of placement, where games can vary a bit in difficulty, and see their CSR go up on the back of a big win - and even though it has nothing to do with personal performance - the idea is ingrained.

And people parrot the same line in various forum threads.

It’s something 343 could easily fix.

The sandbagging will be way less effective without Silver and low Gold players. It was a very slow grind to begin with - I can only imagine (hope) that it’s tedious and untenable with P’s and D’s for team-mates.

I think this used to be a huge source of people quitting.

Congrats on the S1 Onyx. Sadly it will be a bit harder in S2 after the mid-season population recalibration.

And yes. The games aren’t quite as smoothly matched with lower numbers. Especially out of popular hours.

And you can’t really manipulate your CSR in socials. There is a bit of “form”, if you like, to the global components, but you essentially have an independent MMR for each playlist.

Probably true to the point of player’s camping and going for cheap kills as opposed to playing the objective.

Again. The ball is in 343’s court to communicate with us.

imagine if sports took the same approach. “hey this team you beat is not on your level so instead of awarding you 3 points, here 0.02332 points instead.”

winning is winning. Whats the point in trying to make your csr meet your mmr? no one wants to know their mmr, they want to know how much they can win even if you are dying more than kills in objective modes, you could still be the most important player on your team.

even in slayer you could be the best player on your team with more deaths than kills as you could be a master tactiition that makes your teammates play better.

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Lol I am the highest I have ever been with a 36% win rate over my last 25. Should never be that way

A round robin, regular season is different. As is a tournament structure. To the ad-hoc play we have in Halo.

But a lot of Sports use ELO type systems for their actual rankings.

And a lot of Sports have other ranking pressures. Teams move up and down divisions. Salary caps are used to limit player acquisitions. Drafts of young talent. etc.

But not all wins are equal.

If the #3 Tennis player in the world beats the #250 in the first round - should they be ranked up to #2 on the basis of that win? After all winning is winning. And if so, why would they play the major’s at all? Just turn up to heaps of minor events and slaughter the wannabes.

The CSR is pretty much there to smooth out your ranking journey. Early on you can jump all over the place. So the CSR provides consistent movement; up for a win, down for a loss, and no more than 15 points per game.

I don’t think it’s working at the current scale though. 1-1800+ is too wide. But that’s just my opinion.

In the end you want to know your skill rank. Your MMR is your skill rank. So you want the CSR to be as close as possible.

And after 50+ games into the season they are pretty much the same.

Isn’t that the whole point of ranked?

You could be. But I doubt it. Slaying is still the key skill in every mode. Or more importantly dying less than the opposition. It’s when you have more players on the field that the key objective plays are made.

If you aren’t dropping the oddball to fight back and trade with the player coming at you - you are costing your team. If you blindly run with the flag until you die you are doing your team a major disservice.

There are so many skills that go into the win. And the most important one isn’t measured in any way - what you are talking about, communication.

But everything adds up - and the better you do the little things the more wins you will get and the higher you rank up.

Yes, KPM has a weighting. But it’s just that. A weighting. And it’s not huge. If you are playing the objective right (getting kills and dying as few times as possible) then you will still rank up.

the point is, 343 will never have accurate mmr and it should always be hidden and used as a guideline only. people dont want to know 343’s flawed view of how important an individual is, people should care less about their individual rank and more how good of a team they are. winning is what matters and should be the focus. Currently, the top players game the system, they protect their rank when their team is losing. Basically they allow the match to snowball because theyre scared of 343’s flawed system, while suckers on their team are trying desperately to win an impossible match making their mmr look worse.

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It’s probably about as an accurate ranking as you can get?

It’s mainly hidden because it can jump around a bit early. The CSR then provides a consistent, smoother movement.

And if it’s an accurate representation of your rank. In that it can accurately predict the result vs other players - then it is no longer a “guideline”.

Josh Menke used to talk about being able to reliably predict not only the winner, but also a player’s number of kills to within 1 or 2 points.

If you are going to call it out as flawed you are going to need to provide some sort of evidence and justification that goes against millions of games worth of data.

And it’s ok to find it jarring. I still do. Like assists, for example, I can’t get my head around them being negative for ranking up. But I’m not going to put my anecdotal “feeling” against cold hard data.

Again. They clearly showed that none of the various metrics such as kills, k/d, damage, assists, medals, objective scores, etc improved the accuracy of ranking. Some even made the predictions worse.

I thought that was the focus. Win and rank up. Find a good team and win more.

Player’s will always find a way to game the system. That is their unfortunate nature.

And to some extend I think 343 are to blame. By using the 1-1800+ scale they have created a number to grind. They need a smaller scale, and to close it off with a maximum rank.

Which sucks. But is not the fault of the ranking system. It’s the fault of the players for not taking the time to try and understand how the system works, and for 343 for not making it easier for them to understand it.

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The general community consensus is that the ranking and matchmaking sucks and the customer is always right.

It is the faullt. By simply making csr focus on winning above all the other less important stats, you are then going to get more accurate mmr where those less important stats now matter more as people play the game properly at all times as they try to win which means better matchmaking. Trying to make csr meet mmr is bad design and pointless because players just want to win, not game the system that the current csr encourages. should it be possible for a diamond player to become onyx because he keeps winning with his onyx teammates? sure, who cares. people will see the difference in kda anyway in who are the better onyx players on a team.

Im not saying what josh menke designed is bad but he overlooked player behaviour and expected everyone to follow his rules and thats just not how the world works.

mmr will never truly be accurate or the the thing that matters most in matchmaking as it doesnt account for team chemistry that well. I know theres a system in place to account for different party sizes but its not a good system

343 need to evolve their matchmakingg system and start understanding chemistry and how people play together.

Yeah, the 343 pick mes are so annoying. They can’t accept the fact that 343 is lowkey killing Halo slowly.

A small vocal sample on the forums is far from a general consensus.

I play regularly with a bunch of about 10 people. And I’m the only one that gives a damn. The rest couldn’t care less how it does, or doesn’t work.

Somewhat ironically the CSR is designed to give players a reward for winning. Because they assumed that players would be more annoyed by winning and not going up at all! What they underestimated is how much people hate being penalised for losing.

What stats? The CSR is not dependant on personal performance. It’s goes up or down on the quality of your opposition and the pull of your MMR.

I guess personal performance does affect your MMR and then indirectly on your CSR. But really, I don’t think it’s that strong. Beat better opponents and your MMR will go up.

I would have thought the current system encourages winning.

You win and your CSR goes up.

You beat a higher ranked opponent and both your CSR and MMR go up.

If your MMR goes up it pulls even harder on your CSR to go up.

There’s a pattern here. Keep winning and everything goes up!

What? No. The Diamond player should only become Onyx if they can prove to the system that they can play and beat Onyx players.

I doubt any Onxy player would want their rank diluted by players who don’t deserve to be there.

It’s pretty much what Microsoft designed.

And no-one was overlooking player behaviour. They are purely trying to work out the fastest and most accurate way of ranking players for match-making (in the context of a speedy, versatile, low footprint algorithm).

It’s up to 343 to curb player’s behaviour. Like distracting them with an XP rank… or hiding the fluctuations with a different scale for the CSR.

But it is accurate. You may not like it. But it ranks you to point where it can accurately predict the game result AND your number of kills.

I would have thought accurate ranking of players is the most important thing in match making? Or at least the start / basis of any match making algorithm.

That’s a whole different kettle of fish. The variables here are huge. Like you wouldn’t even begin to try and work it out. So you don’t. You face your fate and try and randomise both teams.

But still, players kind of sort themselves out as part of the ranking. Those who can adapt / play different team roles will ultimately get more wins and rank up.

Statistically it seems to work pretty well. The weightings applied to squads largely evens out the contest.

If you are referring to the recent spate of sandbaggers and smurfs… that is just another case of players looking for loop holes in any system. 343 have already made a move on the make up of squads. And hopefully they will continue to monitor and make adjustments.

I get that the CSR system feels odd.

I don’t know why 343 insisted on using the same scale as the MMR. 1-1800+ just doesn’t work. It encourages a toxic grind for a handful of points and creates a lot of frustration when players oscillate around their MMR.

They could fix this in a flash by simply reducing the scale of the CSR.

Everyone loved the old fashioned 1- 50. That had a 1-1800+ MMR in the background - but people were happy with the “stability” of the ranks. It took a lot of wins to move up or down a rank. You weren’t focused on the per-game variance. Players were happy to just let it happen.

If they want something different they could go 1-100. Or even 1-117 (someone else’s idea).

Or keep the current Divisions (they are useful statistically) and simply go Bronze 1 to Onyx 6 (36 ranks). Or have 10 tiers per division to make it 1 to 60.

By simplifying and slowing down the CSR you take all the pressure off CSR drift, fluctuations, or personal performance. And by creating a maximum rank you take away the toxic grind that an open ended system creates.

If you want something to grind at the top end have a counter for all the games you win at a certain level. So if you get to 50 you get a “point” for every win against another team of 50. You can have a seasonal total. eg. Season 2 you got to 50 (+105).

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