Are you the inventor of that system? Why do you go so far to defend it? Even 343 just stated the ranking system had problems.
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The issues are rank inflation and skill distribution so that means people should probably be lower rated than they already are ha. Not the other way around.
I’m not defending it, I’m literally just explaining how it works.
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The problem I’ve noticed is that lowest ranked player does not get players their level and still gets matched where the enemy teams average mmr is higher than their team, filled with players close to or above their higher team mates, with 1 lower but still very above lowest ranked player.
The expectation of the player isn’t to significantly boost upwards from a win. The expectation is to not gain 1 csr in a lobby where every enemy player is far beyond their current rating, where their team mates being that high affect the win chance and still gain more than 1csr, and should they lose, the lowest player gets penalized more than the higher player regardless of performance.
It isn’t as black and white or…as clear cut as you would think. There’s a very basic flaw that has a gradual affect over time of a player always dropping csr. It happened in halo 5 as well. I had a friend who always was around onyx 1500s who started playing with 2 champs and a high onyx player. When I played again with the friend who I’m speaking of, he was platinum 4. I’m like damn bro what happened and how’s it even possible you dropped that low man.
He explained to me that when he played with those players he wouldn’t budge in csr hardly ever. Any small gain would he completely erased by a loss, and much more beyond that. I’m not even exaggerating. Those other players though? Oh they all had an increase in rating. This dude would be so frustrated by his experience, because he became really good friends with the champ player, but anytime they played the dude would significantly drop.
Its a similar scenario. The offset would still have players far above him. Even in matches he contributed to very well he’d not really go up at all. The expectation for him to start dropping 20 bombs EVERY single match in matches where each enemy player is far above his rating and even his friends In the lobby aren’t dropping that number I mean…weird right?
It isn’t that he expects high rank up. It’s that he didn’t expect to drop beyond an entire tier just by playing with them, and couldn’t understand it whatsoever. Pretty much what happens in infinite in some cases. Players usually realize it and won’t play with those players though. Some will, because their rank isn’t why they play, but others will feel discouraged and even appear offline to avoid having to explain why they won’t join.
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I found a 15 win streak, not all had the expected win % but out of those that did for the 15 you won in a row there was only a single game you were expected to lose.
79%
62%
75%
51%
62%
55%
62%
47%
51%
74%
54%
So yeah what I’m saying is you proved nothing by playing in a stack and winning games you were expected to win. I’ve already explained why the system pairs you like this. Unfortunately it’s a byproduct of being such a high rank and having a smaller population pool to play with.
If you are good enough to “stat” while still winning games then your rank is obviously too low for you current ability. The pros can do this because they are at the top and they haven’t hit their own ceiling yet. A normal player has to do everything in their power to secure the game in a 50/50 scenario because they are at their skill ceiling.
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If you have examples I would happily look into them. The worst player is usually offset somehow. If every enemy team is better than them then usually every member of their own team is even better than that. How it balances it all out.
My matches are all over bro cause I play with whoever tbh. So it would be hard to find examples in my matches. I’ve had instances like it before though but I’d have to dig for them. I’ve played with a wide range of skilled players, some below me, some way higher and some pretty close to where I’m at. I’ve seen the affects it has in matches though, and if my only sole goal was to gain rank then it would seem there’s like easier ways to gain it by being selective off of the players rating over just their performance. You still want someone who contributes to your matches, but doesn’t affect your gain and losses drastically in a negative way. It does lead to players being avoided. Which sucks. I’ve heard high ranked players talk about it, and then I’ve felt it myself when I made a friend that was fun to play with but began to express his frustration about how I affected his matches negatively.
Like…if a cap existed on skill discrepancy, then we would be forced to not play together anyways though. That’s the crazy thing. I played apex for a little while and that’s something i noticed that game does.
Yeah some games do it, but Halo has worked out a system that means they don’t really need to do that. Although it does come with its own issues and exploitation here and there in small doses.
It does suck but admittedly games do tend to be more fun with players around your own skill level especially when considering competetive games. Having 8 players of similar skill is much more fun that say high, average, average, low Vs 4 average players.
It’s sad but I also don’t think I’d play with someone too low skilled than me because ultimately I want to play better players and having to always be anchored to lower skilled lobbies wouldn’t be fun for me. With my one friend I sometimes play on mouse and keyboard with them as I’m much worse with that input.
Yea this is true bro. It also gives a sensation of growing together. It’s understandable that we don’t live in an ideal world, and that some of the affects we see post game is to mitigate csr inflation, prevent some exploitation however…with some still being abused by the same standards odd enough…
I do hope that we get an active thread with the rank creator here just as we did in halo 5. That would be awesome. Idk if you were in the forums at that time, but it was awesome to be there for the q and a. I believe it happened because the ranking system was a disaster, had to be redone, and then created an extremely bitter taste for some players that had csr inflation. So the creator stepped in to sticky the details of his new revision, and answer the questions of the “frustrated player base” lol.
Most of my matches usually make sense. I usually know when I’ll get a bit from a match and lose from a match, and depending on who I’m playing with I’ll just know I’ll derank hard for every loss. It sucks, but…that’s just the nature of the beast i guess. A little fine tuning would be nice though.
I think the same will happen with this as when they do tweak it many players will find themselves at a lower rank than they are now which of course will upset people.
I’m with you, some of my best memories in the Halo 3 days were growing in skill and getting better at the game with friends, some of them I met through the game and some in normal life. Although it was quite clear once my skill started to out grow there’s by a large margin. I’m at the point now where I cant even LAN with friends as I’ll win every game easily. I have to have severe handicaps every time we play like not touching the controller for periods of time or doing certain things. It’s not quite the same as how the old LANs used to be, a lot more fun for everyone.
I think ultimately your rank should stay steady no matter who you play with, the only reason you see variance is because the players you are playing with might not compliment your playstyle or they might elevate it. I used to have a certain role in my old Halo team which we stuck to pretty strictly so I became extremely good at that role but wasn’t very adaptable. When I started playing with other people I was noticing so many holes in my game that my team were previously covering for me.
So much this. You can’t play with higher ranked players even if you are all Onyx’s and similar skill. The game blames losses on you hard and gives you no credit for wins.
The issue here is this stack was completely random. Just some guys on discord that just teamed up that day. If we are rated as some super stack because we joined a fire team that’s busted.
Moreover why does the game give us 15 games we are expected to win pretty much in a row. Feels bad to see CSR move so little.
You can probably look at my Halo Tracker and see when I play with people or friends I gain little CSR but when I play by myself I climb. This feels bad.
The issue is:
Play with friends, you gain little and the lowest ranked player gets punished for losses and gains nothing for wins. Higher ranks gain a bit more for wins, maybe fair there.
Moreover, when you play alone it’s easy to stat and gain 15 csr per win and lose little for losses.
Like literally, play alone and stat is how I rank up.
If I play with a new friends or old friends everyone has a bad time.
You can keep explaining this as “how the system is designed to work” but the design or implementation is stupid.
Like the opposite side of the coin is, I can grab my friend from high school who is a gold or something and just destroy kids all day and climb in rank, then he get nothing. That’s basically why smurfing works.
This system needs to look at the ability to win games. Like if someone can sit in a game and up the win rate by 10%, it doesn’t matter what else is going on with their gameplay.
I’ve been playing solo duo after getting to Onyx in Open, queuing by myself other than my very last session. A lot of the matches just don’t feel fair - the games I was getting in high Diamond were super inconsistent in both rank and skill, with many of the players being Onyx from Open but lower in Solo queue. The result was a lot of non competitive games which is what needs to be avoided.
I’ve had Slayer matches recently where we’re winning by 15 or losing by 15 and I just assumed people were smurfing they were so unbalanced. Nope, I just have a teammate that has spent his last 23 games in Open queue going 21-2 boosting to 1700 with a 4 stack 3 Onyx and a Silver 1 who quit all their placement matches and is now getting wrecked by players at that level in Solos.
It’s clear the rank system is not handling mix skill lobbies appropriately, people are exploiting it and it affects everyone’s games. Being F2P means smurfs and booster accounts are going to be more common and the game needs a skill floor for ranked parties - probably no more than one rank below your own.
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There’s just so much data out there that being in a team with players helps your chances of winning. They have this data for every team across every skill level so they can reliably assign a projected improvement a player will see to their skill when partied up based on the ridiculous amount of evidence they have to back this up. While it won’t happen in every case, and the system can adjust for this over time, it will happen in almost all cases.
The issue with stacking is your teams skill level is higher. So let’s pretend your team rating is 1800. To get a fair game, you need to be matched against another team rated 1800. As this is so difficult to do, you will often have to play teams rated lower. This means more risk if you lose, less gain when you win. If you are expected to win 39/40 games, then by winning 37/40 you would be underperforming against expectation.
If your solo rank is 1600 for example it is far easier for the game to find you a game where the teams equal 1600. It can offset your team with a lower rated player to achieve this, it doesn’t have to look as high so more players to choose from, many more options. As such you can play a game that is equally weighted and prove you are the difference maker to the team, something much harder to do when you are stacked Vs lower rated opponents.
Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast when you squad together at the top % CSR. This is not an issue at lower ranks as the system can more easily match squads to their ability level as greater population to choose from.
Okay, but it works better than Halo 3. It ain’t perfect but it’s better than what came before it and I’m struggling to think how it could be better because I’m not that smart.
That’s not how it works.
That is pretty much how it works.
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Turn it off for most ranks, turn it on for Onyx. That’s how a lot of games do it like Overwatch.
This is the part where players are frustrated. Real legit smurfs that are true skill much higher, are what the system tries to prevent from boosting but consequently instead boosts the higher team mates, but a true skill gold that’s actually trying gains nothing. Sometimes nothing is deserverd…but it leads to this
Now when we apply this to higher rank tiers, a daimond for example takes place of that gold player in the lobby, and this creates similar outcomes of not getting much but getting penalized. Daimond players have a wide skill range because some just don’t play enough to actually show where they should be after their rank in, and then some just seem to play with the wrong people and feel those consequences a lot. It can be remedied like you said but sometimes you just want to play with your friends, and when it creates those lobbies its pretty standard to see lowest rated player screwed over multiple times a session. Bothers some more than others of course.
Sometimes the player will eventually get to there respective skill level and it will make sense, but when the gap in rating is extremely wide, that’s probably when it feels useless and frustrating to even see if that’s a possibility, because in the mean time you’re witnessing those outcomes every match and being knocked back harsh after a loss. Discouraging you from continuing.
I’ll take a second to read this one Ken. I do believe that you’re a chill dude that truly cares about spirit of battle. I can respect that.
It should be able to balance your team better when you play with your good buddy that’s the intent of the system, but somewhere in the mix it gets messy and you end up getting worse sweaty matches at times. Also I’ve learned playing with that buddy will trap your rank even with wins since you likely wont stat above your peers. You need to stat out and place 1st and 2nd to really raise your rank.
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As long as your gains are both performance and win/loss based there should always be a floor, not only at Onyx. Having big disparities in individual skill even if you can balance the teams should be avoided, because this is where it’s easier for the better players to stat and outperform the performance aspect of a lobby in the current system.
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I understand how it works. How it works is stupid. I read the paper. I don’t need an explanation. I need TruSkill3 lol.
It doesn’t only look at ability to win games. It cares about your individual performance as well. Again, if you stat out and lose you don’t drop as much if you go negative -5 and lose.
If you win and stat out, it’s better than winning and going even.