Wins are rewarded the most, BUT… it’s not individual wins. Every game matters. Plus some wins are worth less than others because of predetermined factors.
Read up on it dude. You can laugh at me, but I’m trying to explain it to you to save you having to read through it yourself and digest it. But I’m done explaining it, everyone is just getting annoyed because they aren’t a higher rank and there’s obviously some broken reason for it other than their own ability. Of course.
They’re trapped in platinum because they play like platinum players. Playing the objective doesn’t make them any less Platinum.
I’ve been in games where I’ve had to ask my teammates to drop the ball because I’m slaying like -Yoink!- and missing shots. I’ll hold it because I’m not gonna be slaying as well as them.
But with that I’m done, I’ve spent way more time on this topic than it warrants. Anecdotal personal accounts are not evidence of how the system works. If there wasn’t already a clear publication explaining it then I would be willing to discuss the possibilities of it.
You clearly are missing the point. Just because the papers say it should be functioning one way, does not mean it’s working as intended. There are just way too many personal experiences alongside others who are having very similar experiences to say it’s functioning 100% correctly. You’re just being an ignorant -Yoink!- about it.
You’re very rude. I’m sorry if I’ve upset you.
I’m sorry that I prefer data sets over anecdotes. It tends to be more reliable.
I’m rude because I called you out for what you are being? Lmao, I’m hardly upset.
Can’t wait for the devs to make a post about there being actual problems with the system and how it has not been functioning as intended. What will you say then? “but but bro, the data” lol.
They have already acknowledged a problem with it, about distributions not being as they had wanted to them. A lot of people are gonna end up more towards Gold/Plat that are currently in Diamond when it’s changed I imagine.
As a top 1-2% player I can’t imagine that will affect you.
But yeah no need to be like that. I thought you were upset because you started insulting me.
Have a good life.
I wasn’t insulting you to hurt you, I was just saying you were being a bit of an as.s but I mean so was I lol.
I’m laughing that you think orge 1 is wrong; when the best players are flat out stating that to gain rank, you abuse the system.
I’ve made a post on it. You bait your team, let them die, pick up the kills. Never play objective. This is how you game the system. Until they fix it to a win/loss system, this will continue to happen.
Don’t want a high rank? Play objective, pick up assists, and basically play exactly how a good player SHOULD play. You’ll be in the lowest tiers by the time you realize that he was right.
I’m not sure what you are laughing at… I don’t recall saying Ogre was wrong. I think I asked for a clarification of exactly what he was referring to.
I’ve just been pointing out that the system mainly reflects wins (as it should). We know there is a weighting for kills per minute… and we are hoping that this is mainly in Slayer as opposed to Objective games.
And look… whatever system is in place people will game it.
I guess the question I would like to know is how much of a higher rank does this really push you? I assume most of said K:D farming is in games where you are the better team anyway. And you would probably be beating these teams with a solid K:D anyway - so what is the real time rank boost you get from the time and effort?
And then if all the ‘top’ players are doing it… are their relative rankings any different from what they would be if they weren’t doing it?
As a ‘team’ player myself… I would love more emphasis put on team roles. But I don’t know how you would necessarily do that quickly and efficiently.
I’ve been thinking about what people actually mean by this.
Someone who is Onyx is pretty much there because of their skill level. They will have a “base level” if you like, where the core W/L system (plus K/min weighting) puts them.
Let’s say this is an MMR of 1850.
Now to grind higher they need to pull things to their advantage. Manipulate teams, Change the way the play. Milk their K:D as much as they can…
Voila, they pull their rank up to 1875.
Now, some of the Onyx type players around here will be in a better position to estimate the numbers at hand…
But is it a relevant change in MMR?
Especially when the MMR becomes less accurate at higher numbers. Maybe accurate isn’t the right word… less comparable? And I mean across regions. There is no way we can tell how an 1850 on one side of the world compares to an 1850 on the other side (without them actually playing each other and their peers regularly).
The only relevance is that people seem intent on grinding their MMR (even though it isn’t suited to that) and lose their mind when they lose 15 MMR in a game.
Yeah man, I’ve been watching my stats for weeks. I’ve been playing with the same guys I have more wins than most of them. The two that have a higher rank than me that I play with basically protect kDa and high kill count. I on the other hand often go off and do the objective take on more deaths and get less kill time because I’m doing the objective. In terms of damage dealt, ball time, flag objectives I absolutely eclipse their stats… It boils down to Kda and kills per minute. So if you’re the guy on the team with the most objective points and you’re the main reason the team won even if someone is doing worse than you overall statistically but gets more kills than you. Then the game will rank you lower at the end of the match hence giving you less rank. After doing this for the last month or so it has made me fall lower than the two teammates I often play with and now I’ve reached the wall. Why I know it’s a wall is because I’ve become more selfish lately to raise my rank as a necessity and I have increased my KDA, but now I’m at the wall… and the climb is steep. Since the MMR system has a collective of so many games it doesn’t want to allow me to move anywhere.
A key issue is I have more wins similar losses even if they perform a tad better KDA wise. I should be closer off wins alone. Wins in objective matches are much more than KDA. Not to mention my playlists stats that allow for a sole focus on slaying I’m statistically solid there…task is different then
I will add that going into solo duo alone has been better for rank overall. Better matchups this way and without friends to let down I can slay and slay only…
playing with buddies has become so 50/50 split it just isn’t worth it.
It has made us all play separate for better matches
Your rank is lower in solo queue though? I’m confused.
Take your friend SIRS as an example. Almost identical stats but they consistently put out more damage than you and they’re playing better opponents while maintaining almost identical stats to you (also better k/d). This is on all fairly comparable stats. It’s difficult to compare objective stats when the number of games of each type is unknown. If you think their playstyle is bad, their win % when I checked was 0.1 different to yours and they are playing stronger opponents than you. So clearly their strategy works as much as yours does to get the win.
Honestly, focus on your k/d and see where it gets you. You’ll hit a wall pretty fast unless you learn how to maximise your impact on each game. Alternatively watch some pro players, observe how they play objective and “play their life” and learn some more game theory so you can achieve the objective without mindlessly throwing your body at it. Because if your k/d is suffering that much to complete the objective then you are absolutely going about it the wrong way on a consistent basis. Objective doesn’t mean you don’t get kills or go negative, most of the time. You should still be staying alive and helping take down enemies.
K/d matters less in objective games than it does in slayer, this is a core feature of the system. Of course it still matters to some degree, a teammate throwing their life away constantly is not helpful. You may squeak out a win doing it and think you deserve more rank, but you’re definitely making the game harder on yourself and your teammates than you need to be in taking that approach. You will die sometimes by “doing the objective” but the same is true for Team Slayer. Sometimes it is better to take a death to help your teammate secure a power weapon or a double kill. If you think the system won’t reward you for that, don’t do it. But that mentality will get you in the long run if your aim is to climb.
If you reply then I’m sorry but I will not respond. You can disagree with me, but if you really want to grow as a player then you need to stop blaming the system and start focusing on how to have more of an impact on each game to adapt round your different style of teammates.
I’m telling you man get better isn’t the only answer to everything. It is a MMR system that solo focus is on kill per min and life protection. Not objective based things we are being forced to take part in. Hence my frustrations the said task is provided you do required task I get let less reward. Ignore match goals focus on kills and not dying match in and out your results are better.
If one player is not willing to die more in objective it gets much harder to complete the goal at hand. I’m not talking senseless dying. Just flag running or ball in general is gonna hurt your outcome.
Never had this issue in old Halo systems other then the cheat messing it up a bit.
Not sure your argument mad sense you said we are statistically almost the same which would kinda prove my point here. Only main stats really better are their kda my objective flag and ball absolutely eclipse theirs. I have stopped cross play at this point. Sticking to solos building up solo duo mainly just slaying instead been pretty effective.
Rest easy though, I still love halo might just putts around in big team for bit and solo duo. I do enjoy a good warthog match from time to time. Maybe bounce to Forza for bit. Then come back after the updates have released with a level head.
A lot of people have the opposite happening to them. Their net gain will be 0, and loss substantial. There’s so many factors affecting the games to merely see it as a win and loss though… Which you already know all of that, but many others may struggle to see it. Like who you face, unranked, under ranked, over ranked players, new accounts, etc etc. All the stuff skewing matches and the outcomes of not only the win or loss, but the increase or derank itself.
The main arguments here are just that as it stands, being the main slayer and getting high stats and positive KD have too much weighting when objective time doesn’t. Most people should know (I hope) that you need slays to carry out the objective in the first place. However…at a glance…we can look no further than an actual cheater with a insane high csr rating…and look at why they’re their in the first place.
Insane amount of kills, not many deaths, and the wins themselves. Hardly any objective time. We can flip this and let’s say there’s a cheat to Insane cap flags or glitch yourself into a wall with the ball and take no damage but hold it and just never die. To become a cheating objective player. Sounds silly…but…for the sake of this entire debate…let’s actually say this existed.
A team of 4 players. 2 using ultra cheats. 1 being an untouchable objective player. The other has aim bot, and the basic knowledge skills of an onyx level player.
They’re all on new accounts playing together where the untouchable carrier hardly ever gets kills, still dies trying to get the objective, but once has the objective cannot die. The other has the highest stats every game given the circumstances and cheats.
What is the expected outcome across 100+ games? What rank would the untouchable objective player get? What rank would the slayer get? Both went hand in hand, both needed for the win, but both being the epitome of the slayer or objective player.
This is a means to exaggerate the points most of these guys are trying to articulate, but I think kind of may…shed some light on their thought process. That there’s a reason those cheaters get upwards of 2000s csr, where the objective player very well may never even reach upper daimond being seen as not contributing enough for the win. In normal circumstances, just would show main slayer is always rewarded while objective player if only highlight is playing the objective gets very little.
Real world scenario…we definitely don’t want people sticking to a role. A good player makes use of opportunities as the arise. If the ball is there, you pick it up, if you’re main slaying amazingly and there’s a team mate that consistently isn’t…wouldn’t it be in the teams best interest to not have the guy going off hold the ball? Team game. Choices matter, and they affect the actual win. It all becomes meaningless if the main slayer In that match holds the ball only to see his team get wiped out before he could even rotate it for a better set up. Now it’s 2v1 or 3v1. Hope is lost.
Like me personally…i get their frustration. I get all the data points you’ve listed, read them myself, etc. The weighting of stats may just need some tweaking. Not to advocate for a designated ball carrier every match, where holding the ball as a silver player can rank you up high as hell when you’re in higher lobbies. Why not someone may ask? Because what happens when the other modes come up? It all goes back to the point you make about a players influence on their team, how often they positively affect the outcome.
I think its tough to figure out exact %s for us when it comes to how much should this or that matter, and that sometimes it isn’t just the kd stat itself causing high increase or a mitigating affect on a loss. It should not be advocated by anyone to only go for kills and ignore the objective…because should you be the player right there able to secure the win by finally grabbing the ball for awhile…well you’ll lose if you don’t. Everything matters in the game, and the game is an fps. Slaying across all game types will always matter…and no ones playing in high onyx lobbies because they have "a designated objective player "
And sorry I’m editing this in, I was trying trying cover 2 talking points where the 1st one is just really about gain and loss of rank…too many factors sometimes to just say I won I gained this, I lost and loss this. The entire context matters. Then the other talking point just about the discussion between you and the other guy talking about slaying being the main thing that matters and objective seeming like it doesn’t matter.
I just been hearing and a lot more frustration from my friends community and teammates rather than enjoyment now that they all ranked up.
The game is great we just need that update care package now.
I imagine that season 2 will reset ranks and look at anything being scrutinized for the ranking system. Its possible its already being looked at, but that fact that it seems like our discussions here don’t even matter makes us feel like we’re just not heard besides trying to scream opinions over each other at times. Like we need an actual 343 employee or someone with some status to the developer, community manager…SOMETHING…someone to say hey guys…got it. We’re looking into it. Stay tuned for season 2s reset and rework (if it was decided that it was needed) or stay tuned for a stickied thread for a detail break down of all the criteria looked at in determining your true skill rating and what your journey towards that should consist of to help clarify anything misunderstood.
Maybe they’ve said this somewhere? Idk all I check is here. I never look at reddit.
Well articulated, I agree with what you have said.
Its hard to say how an untouchable oddball player would be ranked as surely a player with no deaths/high average life, and constant wins would also be highlighted as an extremely skilled player. Although the less we know about the exact metric contributions the better. Players are mistakenly following the notion that k/d is the most important factor, and have admitted they would play in a less team oriented way to achieve it. Imagine what players would do if they could clearly manipulate the system. These users clearly are not team players.
The issue is people seem to want to be a higher rank, but they don’t understand how to get there. They think the system isn’t rewarding them for their contributions instead of just learning the meta and becoming more skillful at the game. Trueskill2 can predict outcome of games with 68% accuracy and considering how it aims for 50/50 games as much as possible, that is insanely accurate which just goes to show how strong its ability to assess a players MMR skill is otherwise predictions would be far more unreliable.
How are 343 supposed to amend a system that is already well refined? Games are relatively well balanced across the board, most players have 50-55% win ratios. That means the system is doing an insanely good job at getting players to their sweet spot. If the system can’t predict the MMR correctly, that can’t happen. So the MMRs must be highly accurate generally across the board for this to be the case so consistently.
The only thing is that I actually stated in my scenario that the obj player was only untouchable when the obj was held. The player could still die going for obj, but once ball is collected, flag for example, a cheat is active that prevents deaths. So their kdr would be far less, a fraction of the other players.
In regards to the statistics of win loss ratio, I’ve never actually looked those up myself. I’ve said a few times in various threads that our win loss, rank, even stats are affected harshly by accounts and loopholes that exist within the game that skew the ranks and MM at times. It perhaps may affect 1 spectrum of the skill player base than the other, which is another thing that’s been pointed out before. Maybe some people are just very unlucky and suffer from it much more often.
Many small variables in our matches that cause players some frustration…
Then there’s players where (some players but not all) they actually wish it were a progression system with a clear cut path without so much branches in the way. Some do not wish to see a skill ceiling. More play time, more win, more rank up even at playing lower skilled players. Definitely not what a ranking system should ever do though.
What i Definitely can say…is that if you play with players too high above you, you won’t gain much for a win, you will lose a lot for a loss, and your higher friends won’t be as penalized. It makes the player feel discouraged to join those lobbies where by default they’re just getting the short end of the stick each match. It can be overcome…but in the meantime you’re watching their rank skyrocket at times while you get little to nothing nor break even in a session of equal wins and losses regardless your performance.
Join a lobby with players below you or at the very least your skill level and you will see more manageable matches where your wins will grant much more…sometimes resulting in a sensation that a tough sweaty match as the lowest ranked player you win…where you actually played to the best of your ability granted you 1 csr because your team mates so high that despite you, the lowest player had a hard sweaty match the systems designed to say hey…good job. As expected. Here’s 1 csr point. Good thing you didn’t lose. We were ready to take 10 away from you or more. Then the flip side…an easy match just gave you 15 csr playing in a different lobby.
The feeling a player gets from the high ranked lobbies is that hey…I did my part…my friends are high onyx and im stuck in daimond…I just played a lobby of 4 decemt high onyx players…if I’m consistently winning…why don’t I get more for the win while over ranking my team mates is prevented and they don’t gain as much? Why is it the opposite where we all get 1 point, but under a loss I get penalizes upwards of twice as hard? The player will feel their performance is at least entry onyx or a bit above that but with that team can’t get it.
It rings true because I see a lot of players just join a different team and rank up in much easier matches. This is where…perhaps it could be seen as a more natural progression to showing where you belong, vs the system just having a difficult time wanting to move you up if by default your teams full of higher players. Like I stated, it can be overcome…but it’s difficult, and can be filled with frustrating incidents for that lower ranked player.
It sucks…but the rank itself thats just meant to find healthy matches for us has become this vanity emblem to people…and it bugs the hell out of them to not have it, to see others who they feel don’t deserve it…and to have people want it so bad they go through shady practices to get it. Perhaps it doesn’t help that now you actually unlock stuff with it, and even more so if every season it’s something different and there will always be players to do whatever it takes to get that little prize
This post deserves a lot more views and a lot more attention.
This NEEDS to change!
15 games long session in ranged controller, with 10 wins and 5 losses, 1.15 k/d gets me from 1300 to 1314. Then I lose three games in a row, being the only player talking over mic and giving callouts, and having positive overall damage dealt/damage received ratio which might arguably be the most important stat and I get deranked to 1294.
I feel like it is impossible for me to rank up even if I win a lot and play well individually. It is way easier to rank up in crossplay.
I get it, 343 broke rank system and now they do it so it is more difficult on some ques to get promoted not to have too many players in Onyx, but why am I paying the price for that?
If you don’t want your players to get promoted and rank up just make a quick play playlist that works on the same rules as ranked. At least I’ll get practice without being punished all the time and getting no reward
You can check my stats here, if you don’t believe me:
https://halotracker.com/halo-infinite/profile/xbl/dymek27%20pl/overview?experience=ranked&playlist=f7f30787-f607-436b-bdec-44c65bc2ecef
The absolute easiest way to kill a ranked experience is for it too not be rewarding. No matter what your metrics are if I win a game I should expect to gain. If I win more than I lose I should gain. If I lose more than I win I should fall.
Last ranked game I played. Solo in the crossplay at diamond 5
Slayer, I had 14 kills most on my team with 10 deaths. Super close game, exciting, we win in the last minute. Even game all around with teammates all being in the same neighborhood as I as was enemy team.
I gained zero. Not 1, not 2, zero points for a solo win and most kills and least deaths in a slayer game.
How can I justify to keep playing, what’s the point? Being honest that game completely ruined ranked for me, totally crushed my drive to keep ranking up and I haven’t played that playlist since.