I would also like to note that the game believed I was at 1908 at one point… so there is no way it is this volatile in a negative way. How am I down 150 points from where I peaked? If what you are saying is true, I should be hovering at 1850 or something. I literally cannot climb because I am gaining so little and losing so much.
Not to mention that if my game crashes or I have a teammate quit, I lose and get penalized for it… For something I cannot control.
See maybe from a purely implementation standpoint it is “pointless” but from a player’s perspective it would mean a lot. I would actually feel like I want to grind if I am able to go up and down. Give me free points and let me lose them if you, the system, are so confident that I will lose them. If a Plat player wins 20 games in a row and continues to play people that are higher rank as he climbs he most definitely deserves to be Diamond or maybe even Onyx. Why not? He is showing the game that he is better than the people at his current rank. It literally is what you have described before.
Since I stuck at Diamond 5 with my main account and there is absolutely no joy and motivation left, I tried a new account. I got placed at Platinum 5 (to be fair, I didnt play some games not very seriously to get a lower rank), though I got matched most of the times with Diamonds 2-5.
After a couple of games I’m at Diamond 3, losing almost nothing when losing and gaining quiete some amount of CSR for winning. Main focus lies on kills since I played wo win (= playing objective) with my main account.
Lets see where the second account ends up… since my stats are quiete similiar I guess Onyx won’t happen either. Which is fine. And it was fine in H5 as well, BUT: it wasnt that demotivating in H5 since you didn’t drop what you gained with 5 wins with 1 loss. Thats the most depressing thing about it…
And: as long as the severs act like they do, competitve play is a joke anyway. Since 1 or 2 weeks the game starts placing me on 120ms server (before, 30 ms was standard) and you either melt people on these servers or get screwed big time. And even on 30 ms servers, desync and oversea players kill the whole system…
Throw in the “Rank Unavailable” issue when finally winning but not gaining anything and you have one tilted player. I’m at plat 6, trying to climb through Diamond, and can confirm this is also a problem for us casuals, not just concerning ONYX rank. For a win I gain little to nothing, but losses drop me like a kick to the groin.
Out of curiosity what is the age people everybody participating in these forms? I’m just trying to get an idea of who is playing halo these days, and if the game is really popular amongst the younger children. I feel like everyone here is 21+ yet the game is being fixed for cosmetic and store bonuses rather than gameplay. So I figure us old peeps are far from the target audience so our voice is less important these days.
Do you feel like gameplay is taking a back seat to creating skins and the improved battle pass?
I’m shrinking my expectations. Take it from me as a professional digital modeler. The fact they released visor off-center is concerning in terms of Quality Control. Centering a model is CAD school 101. Likely using freelancers to meet our demands. Releasing their data rushed for demand. This shouldn’t have launched until after the holiday…it just wasnt ready.
This is all I’m asking for now. In fear of it getting too challenging from them to provide further.
-1-2 More ranked playlist ex: (slayer), doubles, big team even…At least provide slayer so the stat aggressive players have a home to grind in, and team area can play normally again.
-2-3 maps
-controller only lobbies for 4 people.
-let us play co-op story mode ASAP, or give us a verbal update.
I am 26 lol so yeah probably. Though I think this would be the Halo game that could unify the whole community. If the developers are transparent and communicate with us. That is the frustrating part. It is like pulling tooth and nail to get communication from them. Even something as dismissive as “we hear you and will take your feedback into consideration”.
I don’t want to derail the conversation from issues with the ranking system but 343’s developing practices have always been concerning to me. It is like they take 3 steps forward and 5 steps backward in most cases (ironically much like their ranking system is forcing me to do). Halo Infinite, however, has largely proven me wrong. But as I continue to find issues or see these important issues going unaddressed and unfixed, I start to lose faith again.
I think a Ranked FFA playlist is needed. I am actually ok if they keep Team Slayer and Team Objective mixed into one playlist so the population for objective game types stays high but I wouldn’t be opposed to them splitting them either. They should bring back some solid legacy maps like The Pit or Narrows or something. That would be great.
They said that co-op story is coming later. I think they said Season 2.
Genuinely delighted to find someone of the same opinion as me. I don’t sigh with relief when I see Slayer anymore - Strongholds is the only mode I’m not that fond of. I like that you can outthink players in different ways in the objective modes.
FFA does indeed need a ranked playlist, and BR starts. Completely different challenge and skillset - I think you’d see many players stronger in an FFA list than they are in the team ones (and vice versa).
One playlist for team games, one for FFA - clear distinction and higher player populations. Perfect.
They need to release ranked FFA I literally got so mad about getting crappy team mates that I deranked by throwing the match if my team mates didn’t have a mic if I wouldn’t of gotten mad and deranked I would probably be a Diamond 6 oh well I am going to make a 2nd account and see if the ranks come out any different
I seriously think 343 is ruining Halo on purpose they made all this money off the launch with microtransactions now the sooner this game dies the sooner they won’t be expected to deliver any fulfillment then they can run off with the money and all us halo players can really do is talk crap while 343 scams the pants off us OG Halo players
Another great example why this system is so flawed:
After a 16 games win streak I loose a slayer game 44:50 only because of some guy going -8 while going +4. No biggie, loosing is part of the game.
Lobby was all diamonds 1-5. -10 CSR.
next game: 2:1 oddball win against high diamonds, 1 onyx, no onyx on my team. Placing 1st, most kills, best kd and high ball time. Game is not on halo tracker yet but the bar went up probably +7 or +8.
WHY should I keep playing now? When loosing games mean -10, average games resulting in a win give +1 and sweaty games played really still give less than losing?!
I get it, infinite means I’m diamond 5 and there’s proba no way to change that on my own.
edit: 5 games, 3 wins, lower CSR than before. Oh boy, 343… you know how to motivate and keep your players.
First thing I had to do was make sure I wasn’t the player who let you down
The thing to keep in mind is that the system wasn’t necessarily penalising you for losing that game. It was taking away CSR it didn’t think you had “earned”. It was likely that most of the games in your winning streak were against teams equal or below you in rank. You get CSR for those wins - but not MMR.
When you finally lost a game the system used it to bring your CSR and MMR together.
If you had beaten a team ranked above you then the system would go “well, maybe they do deserve their CSR” and bring your MMR up accordingly. The real life problem is just what you experienced - the odds are more likely that you will lose a game you shouldn’t because of bad team-mate “dynamics”.
It’s hard taking individual rankings at face value. The system adds a weighting to players running around in squads.
It depends on why you are playing in the first place. I suggest that if a handful of ranking points is making your life miserable you need to step out for a while.
I’m not sure what the answer is. TrueSkill is a fantastic ranking tool. But it’s not a score to simply grind. The problem is shoe-horning it into the structure of Halo’s matchmaking. The very good teams on each (local) server are going to get a lot of games vs team close or below them in rank. No ranking system can use those results to increase someone’s rank. Any “token” CSR given out has to be taken back at some stage.
We’ve already seen the cream of the players drift out to MMRs of 2200+. If you consider the ceiling should be around 1800 you can see how the system is falling down. The only way 343 can put a break on it is to minimse the CSR gained in Onyx and put a weighting against losses.
The downside is the treading water pattern you are describing.
Diamond 5 is actually pretty impressive. Well done.
And yes, like any skill ceiling, improvement from here is going to be long and laborious.
But good luck!
The problem is that MMR shouldn’t be a number to grind.
I think the better “motivation” would be an XP system that is weighted for wins and medals.
The old waypoint had a forum for discussing matchmaking and ranking. One of the employees, Josh Menke, was very active in it. He answered lots of questions and would often look up player’s MMR’s to answer their questions.
Hopefully there is some deeper info in the Stats API that we will be able to access at some stage.
What’s getting old is these posts and people not understanding that you can’t keep climbing the ranks forever, EVEN IF YOU ARE WINNING.
The rank system is ranking players based on skill, and it’s graded on a curve. The higher you get in ranks, especially if you’re Onyx and above, the more you’re going to see resistance like this. Just because you’re winning games doesn’t mean you should climb in rank. You can only climb in rank if you’ve actually gotten better than the people that are ranked above you, and once you’ve climbed that high and reached where you’re supposed to be, the more difficult it will be to climb in rank.
If thats the case, the system is nothing but poor design. You can’t “punish” players for things that did’nt happen.
These are the three games I’m talking about:
+1 CSR, 58% win chance, poor performance. But still an !!objective!! win.
https://halotracker.com/halo-infinite/match/bd3bedfc-84c9-4d85-b643-6ab900c365e2
-10 CSR, 37% lossing chance, good perfromance in a Slayer match.
https://halotracker.com/halo-infinite/match/673f0283-1a7f-4575-827f-bf0dec4468db
At this point, everything is fine, though -10 is imo a bit harsh looking at the game itself.
But this is the problem I’m talking about:
+7 CSR, 40% winning chance, carried the team with kills AND objective against HIGHER ranked opponents with LOWER or equal ranked teammates.
Gaining LESS for this win than loosing for a slayer match only decided by one guy is just bad design. IF you don’t deliver enough information WHY it happened. We wouldn’t have this thread if a carange report would provide the infos how the CSR was calculated.
+5 for win
+2 for K/D
+1 for objective
+1 medals
+3 for chances for the win
Oh and the cherry on top is the next game:
+1 CSR, 66% loosing chance, best KDA and least deaths.
https://halotracker.com/halo-infinite/match/b406b69b-45c0-481f-9037-14f15d3645ae
Higher ranked opponents, one unranked on my team
Then 3 wins and with ONE loss with a 66% loosing chance I lost again 10 CSR.
And thats the problem with infinite. The only thing to play for tight now, is improvement. Cosmetics are BS or behind a pawall, additionally I don’t care about them anyway. Social playlists are often even sweatier than ranked and I can’t play with friends beacuse they usually get destroyed in social. Beside, the AR just sucks. ;D
I have about 3000 ranked games in H3 and I think about 5000 in H5, floating at the same CSR level as in infinite. But why wasn’t I frustraed as in infinte? Thats a question a good game designer HAS to ask themself. And to be honest, looking at many things in infinite, I really don’t see many good design choices…
You are absolutely right. I don’t wann grind a rank. I don’t wanna get carried to Onyx. But to keep up the motivation ond lower the frustration, the game has to give me something. And this shouldn’t be something it takes away the first chance it gets. Lock the MMR at diamon 5, I’m happy with it… agmes against high onyx aren’t fun anyway, I don’t even wanna go there. BUT: give me something for 5 wins. Give me something for a day with am 1.3 KD
Exactly.
In short: I get the INTENTION behind the syste, What I don’t get are the specific choices the system make which ist the first layer of frustration. The second layer is the lack of a rewarding system that motivates me to really keep going. And after 6 years of development, this is just plain bad and very dissapointing.
I get what you are saying olanmills, but that’s not how the system works. You can get your CSR to skyrocket easily by being on Diamond and playing with a Gold friend. You will get Gold/Platinum oponents and easily make 30 kills per game and get 7-15 CSR every won game. But when I win/lose against oponents similar to my CSR I am getting +1 and -7/15.
I should be rewarded more for winning against higher level oponents not by slaying players way below my skill level.
The problem here lies in both matchmaking and ranking system I assume
The problem with this logic is that I play in high onyx lobbies consistently, especially when I play with my team. Lobbies are generally in the 1600-1900 range, my win % is constantly rising yet it’s a massive struggle to go up in CSR.
What is getting old are people commenting on this post when they don’t have personal experience with the issue. How can so many of us on the forums feel frustrated and cheated by the ranking system at high Diamond/Onyx? Something is wrong, whether that be the outward representation of the MMR/CSR or the ranking system itself. I shouldn’t have made it to 1908 and then dropped all the way to 1720 with a 60% win rate and a positive KD. I physically cannot climb. The game has made it impossible for me. To get back to my peak rating, I would need to win almost 200 games in a row with no losses based on my CSR gains being at 1 pretty much every game (going positive almost every win btw). 200 wins in a row?! That is statistically very improbable.
The people defending the system have stated facts that just don’t hold true to reality. When I play a game and we are expected to win at 55% and we lose, I go down like 10 points. If we play a game and we are expected to lose at 55% and we win, I go up like 1 point. How does that even work based on the arguments that have been made in this forum. I should be going up and down consistently the same amount based on my win expectancy.
Also, it seems really fishy but when I play with my squad, only 1 of us is usually rewarded with CSR gains for wins. It seems the game only rewards the one teammate that went the most positive, even in objective game types. If I go +10 KDA and he goes +12, he gets 7 points and I get 1 point. It really does not make any sense.
I have ended every night’s session now, feeling frustration with the game’s ranking. Which is a shame because I have never had these issues in any other Halo. Even Halo 5, the most recent predecessor, felt very fair and balance and I knew exactly why I went up or down. I don’t know what changed between that game and Infinite.
I think what happens is people look at the hard data / facts, and if those are on point they disregard and dismiss how the game feels to players. Trueskill could be flawless – but if it isn’t fun or rewarding, it doesn’t matter. And I agree – the fact that so many people report feeling punished or frustrated within this system identifies that the system isn’t 100% there yet.
The system and ranking patterns are probably the same as Halo 5. But in H5 they were hidden numbers for Platinum / Diamond - so people just “got on with it”. And then for Onyx they may have underestimated the need for something to grind… especially with no XP based system.
Not bad design exactly. More a bad implementation.
And keep in mind the “40%” chance - I think is calculated by HaloTracker from the average team CSR. I don’t know how this relates to the “chance” calculated by TrueSkill. And it gets even less useful because it won’t tell you the weighting being added to any squads in the game. So I wouldn’t get too hung up those numbers.
I’m hoping they abandon the visible CSR system altogether (just have divisions and tiers). But if they do persist - this would be an excellent idea.
