I’m tired of gaining 1 CSR for wins and losing 10-15 for a loss. you cant drop games or you just derank period, ive had days where im 80% win rate and still going down. lol.
36 Likes
100%, I’ve been playing as a squad so we play to win, not for stats.
Games where I go a little positive or neutral and win I got up maybe +2 csr, games where I go off +10 kd or more I get +3 csr. But every -Yoink!- loss, doesn’t matter if it’s from a DC, game crash, or if the team is a squad of 1500-1600 or 1900-2200 onyxes, we will lose a game 50-49 and I will still drop 10 to 15 csr.
This is by far the worst ranking system I have ever seen in a game.
I mean, would an IM in Chess lose 15 points if they dropped a game to Magnus Carlsen? No they wouldn’t.
I have gone from 1828 - 1693 in a couple of days. This game has been out for almost 2 months and there have been complaints about the ranking system since day one pretty much.
Come on, maybe it’s time to pull finger?
26 Likes
The problem is that they have to artificially cap the high end of the system.
Otherwise the top end of town would explode with ever increasing (and meaningless) MMRs.
They wouldn’t have to if it was more of a tournament system where all the top players played each other regularly… Like your Magnusson / chess example.
What would happen to Magnusson’s score if he played his next 500 games against players outside the top 100? That wouldn’t happen in Chess.
Your rank drifts up and then corrects with the loss. The real question is - does your rank ever not reflect your true Halo ability (within a reasonable margin of error).
1 Like
So, Chess.com has an ELO ranking system and you could play anyone pretty much and it would affect your rank. In matchmaking though, a GM will not usually match your average player.
If you were a 2800 and you lost to a 1200, you would lose a fair bit. But that’s not what’s happening here. I can use a real world example. If a 1700 player loses to a 2100 player in Chess, they would only go down about 1.6 ELO, if they won they would go up 18.4. Well in this scenario, I lose 10-15 when I lose on Halo, and I gain 1-3 if I win.
There is also an issue where if I play for the win in an objective, meaning I run flags, I hold the ball, I play my life and contest capture points instead of just baiting my team, it lessens how much CSR I will gain. This has been pointed out by some all time great Halo players too, like Ogre 1. He posted exactly what I am saying and said that if you want a high rank, you have to play selfish, don’t play the objective, bait your team, and stat. Which stating is not indicative of whether you’re a better player or not.
To answer your question I’d say no, it does not reflect true Halo ability within a reasonable margin of error. When I went up to 1828, I went on a massive run with my team winning about 48/50 games to go up about 150 points. But I lost 50 CSR the other day in 4 losses. 1 of which was where my team mates game crashed.
10 Likes
I think a lot of people would emphatically say that their rank does not reflect their true halo ability, given the frustration I’m seeing expressed by many. There’s so many factors that contribute to whether I go up or go down in rank, most of all who I am playing ranked with. If my teammates perform poorly, but I perform well in a match – and then lose a ton of rank for it – then no, it’s absolutely not reflective of my true halo ability. Or, if I have quitters on my team, teammates without mics, bad servers, desync etc.
I would agree with the sentiment expressed in the original post: the system is incredibly punishing right now for losses. I wouldn’t mind if they removed extreme gains in rank: I just want increases and decreases to be consistent, and to understand why I’m gaining or losing rank when it happens. It’s incredibly demoralizing to play ranked for hours, have a series of wins, and then lose a ton of progression over the course of a few matches.
8 Likes
There was a good explanation on the old Waypoint from 343. Sadly it’s gone.
Part of it was accepting that the system didn’t work well when the top players / teams tended to play lots of games vs lower teams (at the whom of who was available).
The solution was to set a small gain on wins and a bigger fall on a loss. It resulted in the cycles we are seeing - but it was ok in that people were still sitting around their actual rank (validated in-system by the match predictions).
A recurring discussion point for a decade or more.
It’s a team game so the team result is paramount. It’s the quickest, simplest, and most accurate data point. Name any other team game where the individual performance is given more weighting than the result)
I’m not sure what Ogre’s point of reference is? To rank up you need to keep winning. Whatever style of play gets the ‘W’ is arguably the best strategy.
And focusing rank more on the individual is only going to promote even more toxic play then we see now. Killing team mates just as they are about to plant the flag for example.
Honestly, I haven’t seen anyone put up a good alternative to what we have now.
I would contend that the system thinks you are somewhere around 1800 (congratulations). You ground out a sequence of wins that slowly pushed your CSR up. Then it fell a bit with a loss.
I agree that it’s a bit harsh on a loss with quitters…
But really, the system has you paddling around 1770 to 1830. This is a reasonable range. The difference is probably not significant (especially comparing to players outside of your region).
People need to stop thinking of the MMR as a number to grind. The system just can’t be that accurate.
If you think you really are higher… The only way is to play and win games against teams ranked significantly higher than you (and not lose any to lower ranked ones)… Or wait until you’re next placement games and do well against higher ranked teams (when the standard deviation on your skill curve is wide and your rank at its most volatile).
But, as you’ve already encountered, there are too many variables put of your control. You just don’t have the control over who are your opponents or even team mates.
2 Likes
Your rank is your team performance rank.
It is a team game.
I’m not sure what else to add.
Adding more influence to individual performance would just lead to even more toxic behaviours.
You may be a better player than most of your team mates - but not better enough to lift the overall team performance.
For the win!
What I’m seeing is people grinding wins then coming back with a loss or two. Treading water around an MMR range of 50 or so.
Which is;
a) likely reflective of their rank as a member of a team (individual biases aside)
b) probably a range that is not statistically relevant
c) the best the system can do in lieu of a formal tournament structure.
People are getting hung up on grinding a few MMR points when the system simply cannot work to that level of accuracy.
1 Like
I agree that it is frustrating when you want to see the number go up and up and up, but the system is doing what it’s designed to do: find your skill level and keep you there. You win a few games and your rank goes up until it finds the higher end of your skill range. Then you play a few better teams and lose, knocking you back down to the lower end of your skill range. If your skill at the game gets better, you will beat those better teams until you reach your new skill range. Then you will play even better teams and get knocked back down. This isn’t a system meant to be grinded until you reach the highest level, unless you are truly one of the best in the world. It’s a system meant to find you games within your skill level. I know it’s frustrating because we all like to see the number go up, but ask yourself if you truly deserve a higher rank, or if the system is just serving its intended purpose.
Of course, I say this while also acknowledging it is certainly not a perfect system, but I do believe it is serving its intended purpose.
3 Likes
I understand Kills and Deaths make your CSR go up more, but most of these games are objective. If you hold the ball and have bad stats you go down for trying to win the game.
1 Like
Okay. I don’t think you have a very good understanding on how this system works.
It is no secret that stat -Yoink!- minimizes losses and maximizes gain. But so often games are lost because of this. Stating doesn’t win games and is almost always to the detriment of your team mates.
But still. If I win 10 straight games and go up 10-15 points, surely 1 loss shouldn’t undo all of that.
I don’t even understand why you would argue that this a good system.
All you have to do is compare it to ranking systems from other games and you’ll how bad this one is.
Yes, the guys near the top shouldn’t gain much. ELO tapers off the higher you get because your gain and loss is relative to your opponent. One of my points is that we lose so much when we lose a match against team where their average CSR might be 200 above ours.
3 Likes
1690 > 1828 (48 wins 2 losses)
1807 > 1750 (4 wins 5 losses)
1750 > 1693 (9 wins 9 losses)
My overall win rate is about 63-64% playing against high onyx squads. I’ve seen people way higher than me with 40-50% win rates playing the same level of opponents.
What I think is that I have to play with my team mates on smurfs so that when we lose we don’t go down, because that is definitely having an impact as well. There’s quite a few games where the opposing team will be 2000, 1900, 1900, plat3 for example. But they’re obviously not plat level players and are often the strongest on their team.
2 Likes
I see what you are saying, but I would argue that’s not a good system. I don’t know if any Halo player wants to be kept at their current rank, otherwise what’s the point of playing if you cannot change it?
If your skill at the game gets better, you will beat those better teams until you reach your new skill range. Then you will play even better teams and get knocked back down.
I don’t have a problem with this. My bigger issue is that there are currently several negative factors that impact any given ranked game (quitters, cheaters, desync, bad servers etc). With that in mind – the level to which people get knocked down within their skill range feels far too punishing, to the point that it’s disincentivising to keep playing.
It’s a system meant to find you games within your skill level.
I currently find that I’m regularly matched with folks who have wild disparities in rank that are far from my own. I’ve been matched with and against multiple combinations of Onyx, Gold, and Platinum in a single match. It often feels like the system is not matching within my skill level, but I agree it definitely should be doing this.
I know it’s frustrating because we all like to see the number go up, but ask yourself if you truly deserve a higher rank, or if the system is just serving its intended purpose.
People wouldn’t play ranked if they thought they didn’t deserve a higher number. If I’m often outperforming my teammates and lose, or being matched with teammates whose rank does not reflect their skill level, I tend to feel my rank doesn’t reflect my abilities.
As an aside – I much prefer a system that lets you work through each rank from the very bottom the very top. If the system determines I am “X” rank and then places me there, the sense of achievement I get having worked my way up from the very bottom is lost. I guess that’s a separate issue – but I actually think a system that lets you work through every rank would help resolve that feeling of being stuck once you start to have trouble going further.
I say this while also acknowledging it is certainly not a perfect system
How would you improve it?
2 Likes
This is the whole problem: it DOES match you with people your own skill. Remember that your rank is not the same as your skill. So if you have the same skill as an onyx player, you wil get matched.
Just look at me: i was ‘ranked in’ in the first week, when i still got crashes every other match and when the AA on controler on pc didn’t work yet, so i was only ranked in at silver because of that. Since i hardly play ranked and almost always play socials, my skill has been set, so when i play ranked, i don’t play along other silvers, but with higher ranks. I played 2 matches today and played with platinum ranked players, because there is where my skill is at (wich was clear, since i still stayed positive in both matches, even though on the first one my team was 1 player short).
This also makes it hard to rank up if you are on a to low rank, since you don’t get matched with ppl your own rank and thus have the same chance of winning and losing then a person way less skilled with the same rank. This makes the whole rank useless, since it doesn’t say much.
1 Like
I agree with everything you’ve written. Improvements I’d like to see made to the ranking system:
-
Quitters: Losing a 3v4 or worse should not de-rank you, especially if you still play well in the match
-
Limit ranks who can play together. Onyx players should not be able to go into ranked with Gold players. This clearly abuses the system, and results in unfair games that de-rank you. The system as designed tries it’s best to use average CSR to make these games, but the truth is that Onyx is just going to steamroll his Platinum and Diamond opponents, which isn’t fair for anyone, even if the average CSR of both teams are equal.
-
Start at the bottom level and move your way up. While I know this isn’t fun for the players that are truly low level players when they get steamrolled by players on their way up the ranks, overall it does feel better for all players involved because you get many more instances of ranking up, which is what we all want.
For anyone who says that limiting ranks who can play together isn’t fun because they are Diamond or Onyx and want to play with their Gold friends, that’s what Social is for. It would help if they added a Social BR Slayer playlist, because I play with my low level friends in Social to avoid pitting them against Diamonds and high Plats, but the AR starts are just painful for me.
4 Likes
It does seem really odd to me to have a rank level that isn’t reflective of what’s going on solely in that playlist. Has it been confirmed that what you do in quick play, fiesta or any other playlist, is going to affect who you are matched with in the ranked playlist?
I’m kind of shocked if this is the case, because it only adds to the confusion. If this is true, someone who is Gold IV may be playing at a level that’s much closer to Onyx. It’s almost pointless to have any visibile rank showing if it’s not reflecting a hidden skill level.
Not a fan of the current ranked system at all to be honest.
The way it’s set up is there are really only 6 ranks that matter: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond, Onyx. The little 1-6 tiers inside of each don’'t matter at all, no one cares. To most people, myself included, Diamond 1 may as well be the same as Diamond 6, no one cares.
Back in Halo 2, 3 and MCC we had a 1-50 in EACH playlist which is way more satisfying. Comparing ranks with friends, or saying things like “I just got to 45 in Team Slayer” sounded a lot more meaningful than “I’m at the second highest out of only 6 ranks in the only ranked mode available”. There’s really not much else to work for.
Sure, I can still work for Onyx and that’ll take no time at all whenever I decide to play a few more games and get there (game is full of problems listed in other threads, preventing me from even caring to play more). Point is, by being PLACED in Diamond like I was, my entire journey and satisfaction of climbing the ladder was cut out.
6 Likes
I am hoping for a reset of ranks in Season 2, with the ability to climb the ladder from the very bottom. I agree there should be way more than 6 ranks – the current model feels closer to Rocket League than Halo. It doesn’t work for me either.
2 Likes
Basically your team is stacked and the game can’t get you proper games to play consistently. Winning them proves little as you are beating teams you are expected to win against most of the time, and in a party your performance metrics are lowered by each partied player, so you need to perform even better to solidify a higher rank. So you are only getting 2-3 CSR per game because your opponents/performance doesn’t warrant higher growth. The system is begrudgingly increasing your rank because you’re winning and the system has to reward you for that. However it does not feel your play has proven this higher CSR so it is making sure you don’t progress quickly as it doesn’t believe you should be a higher rank. Your MMR is underperforming against your CSR.
As soon as it gets an opportunity to put your CSR back to where it belongs, it does. So the long and short of it is your 1,800 rank was deemed as unwarranted and gained by stacking against mostly weaker teams. While enemy players may have higher CSR/MMR scores, the lack of partying weakens their overall team expectation. As you are stacking, your expectation is higher meaning you are underperforming against these expectations however they may be measured by the system.
3 Likes
In a way that’s what they want.
It helps sell games with wider range of skills when matchmaking needs to.
The weird thing is nobody seems to worry about Diamond 1 vs Diamond 6… But they lose their mind with Onyx 1500 vs Onyx 1550.
Not a fan of an artificial grind from the bottom.
The system knows your rank… So use it.
Add in a seasonal XP grind instead.
1 Like