I don’t think players should be separated by input, as outside of the very top % of players it doesn’t make a difference what you are using.
If someone plays a certain way, you’ll be a certain level. Playing against players on the same input device as you suddenly won’t make you more skillful at the game. You’ll still be the same player, making the same plays, missing the same shots and blaming teammates for every loss. Two players in Gold 2 are equal by the system, even if they are both on controller they will have different levels of decision making, accuracy and skills that make them Gold 2. They aren’t identical even if they are on the same device, same goes for a kbm player, if they are a Gold 2 that’s how they play. They might have amazing accuracy and terrible decision making skills. Maybe without cross platform they would squeeze out an extra tier in the ranking system, maybe… Wouldn’t make them any better of a player though. They’d likely end up the same tier and rank because ultimately that’s how Trueskill2 works, on performance.
By having cross platform and cross input the game can focus on getting players of similar skill, strong internet and get the most fair and balanced games possible. By actively reducing the pool of players it will have to widen the criteria and the majority of games will be slightly worse for it. If you lose to someone on an opposing input device, they’re probably just better than you at the game.
If it becomes apparent early on that one input is dominating and only extreme outliers can rank up to the top on the opposing input then the aim should be to balance them, before we call for separation. That should only be used as a last resort if the game is deemed impossible to fairly balance between inputs and one is unequivocally dominant at all levels of play.
I strongly disagree. Game developers have always struggled to strike a fair balance between M&K and controller users, and even during this past flight, controller users had a distinct disadvantage.
At the very least, segregation should be an option. There should be a high enough player base at launch to support Ranked playlists for both inputs.
> 2535460550943257;3:
> I strongly disagree. Game developers have always struggled to strike a fair balance between M&K and controller users, and even during this past flight, controller users had a distinct disadvantage.
>
> At the very least, segregation should be an option. There should be a high enough player base at launch to support Ranked playlists for both inputs.
I agree players should be able to search for input as priority with increased wait times if they want, but I think it should be on as default.
What happens when you combine the pools is that the top ranks are dominated by KB/M, and the bottom ranks are dominated by controller.
It’s also a problem since what happens is that players that are making better calls/“game sense” decisions, are being paired with “worse” players that make up for it by having superior aim and movement.
This is showcased in every game that combines their pools, while also letting you choose. Choosing to play with people on controller/console always leads to better games that are far more balanced. Playing on console/controller and being placed in the PC pool makes matches FAR more competitive, even against players with lower skill.
Keeping the pools separate, but only combine when a group of mixed input devices exists is the most “balanced” solution.
> 2533274792059509;6:
> It’s also a problem since what happens is that players that are making better calls/“game sense” decisions, are being paired with “worse” players that make up for it by having superior aim and movement.
That’s still happening with players on the same input.
> 2533274792059509;6:
> This isn’t true in practice though.
>
> What happens when you combine the pools is that the top ranks are dominated by KB/M, and the bottom ranks are dominated by controller.
>
> It’s also a problem since what happens is that players that are making better calls/“game sense” decisions, are being paired with “worse” players that make up for it by having superior aim and movement.
>
> This is showcased in every game that combines their pools, while also letting you choose. Choosing to play with people on controller/console always leads to better games that are far more balanced. Playing on console/controller and being placed in the PC pool makes matches FAR more competitive, even against players with lower skill.
>
> Keeping the pools separate, but only combine when a group of mixed input devices exists is the most “balanced” solution.
This is not true when aim assist is as strong as it usually is. MCC is dominated by controllers.
> 2723605488957451;9:
> > 2533274792059509;6:
> >
>
> This is not true when aim assist is as strong as it usually is. MCC is dominated by controllers.
I’d imagine that has more to do with controller players being the majority of competitive Halo players over the last 20 years. That won’t change overnight. Aim is a small part of Halo skill in the grand scheme, in my opinion.
I’m not saying either is better in MCC, I’ve seen top level players using both.
Splitgate has one of the highest aim assists I have ever played with and the majority of top ranked players are on keyboard and mouse. There are still controller players up the top too, one of the best players is a controller user. Lots of people complain about that having crossplay too.
> 2723605488957451;9:
> > 2533274792059509;6:
> > This isn’t true in practice though.
> >
> > What happens when you combine the pools is that the top ranks are dominated by KB/M, and the bottom ranks are dominated by controller.
> >
> > It’s also a problem since what happens is that players that are making better calls/“game sense” decisions, are being paired with “worse” players that make up for it by having superior aim and movement.
> >
> > This is showcased in every game that combines their pools, while also letting you choose. Choosing to play with people on controller/console always leads to better games that are far more balanced. Playing on console/controller and being placed in the PC pool makes matches FAR more competitive, even against players with lower skill.
> >
> > Keeping the pools separate, but only combine when a group of mixed input devices exists is the most “balanced” solution.
>
> This is not true when aim assist is as strong as it usually is. MCC is dominated by controllers.
MCC isn’t a good game to use to compare because there are far more controller users to begin with. Halo Infinite will (hopefully) be the first Halo game with a large PC player base. But even in MCC KB/M users have a massive advantage. There just are far fewer of them.
There are times where people would complain about Apex/Fortnight/etc. games having aim assist, but the fact is that KB/M players are higher ranked, with Pro teams/players almost exclusively using KB/M.
The entire problem is that take any rank, lets say “Gold 2” and what happens is that players on controller will have better game sense, and have to play "harder’. While KB/M will have less game sense, but will be carried by their movement and aiming advantages, and still be placed in “Gold 2”.
And this only becomes more and more of a problem as you get farther up the skill chain. I’m a slightly above average player, and can generally outplay and be competitive with similar, or even higher skilled controller players. As soon as I play KB/M players of similar skill? It’s far more “sweaty”. And it goes both ways, if i’m on PC, I can generally outplay people using KB/M at a similar or higher skill. But if I go up against players using controller? It’s far easier. A controller player has to be far above any given players rank for them to be challenging to a KB/M user.
> 2533274801036271;8:
> > 2533274792059509;6:
> > It’s also a problem since what happens is that players that are making better calls/“game sense” decisions, are being paired with “worse” players that make up for it by having superior aim and movement.
>
> That’s still happening with players on the same input.
Sure it is, but the difference is that you are balancing against the same “tools”. So the entire spectrum of players is being spread across “Bronze 1” all the way to “top 50 in the world”. This means ranks mean more, and have the player base “settling” closer to their skill level. Both on PC and console.
When you mix the pools, you end up essentially reserving entire high ranks exclusively to PC, and bottom ranks exclusively to console. This condenses the console player base into a much shorter bracket of players, while inflating the PC pool. So you have a situation where 90% of all console players will be between rank “1 and 85”. Where as 90% of all PC players are between rank “35 and 100” (obviously “made up numbers” but the concept is factual).
This squash in the rank system means that console players naturally have a much harder time crossing ranks, with more disparity existing within the ranks. Where as PC players have a much easier time crossing ranks, but also has far more balance across the top 70% or so of the ranking system (especially at the very top of the bracket).
<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.</mark> *Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Ranked ought to be renamed to sweaty basement dwellers
Balancing K&M and controller is impossible. Even if you did perfectly balance it, you’d still have people complaining that they got out shot by K&M or controller. And, unfortunately, for many their perception is reality.
But like you said, you also can’t/shouldn’t segregate because at some point the population for Infinite won’t be large enough to do so. There is no perfect solution.
> 2533274796540656;14:
> Balancing K&M and controller is impossible. Even if you did perfectly balance it, you’d still have people complaining that they got out shot by K&M or controller. And, unfortunately, for many their perception is reality.
>
> But like you said, you also can’t/shouldn’t segregate because at some point the population for Infinite won’t be large enough to do so. There is no perfect solution.
Can’t agree more. But you can definitely balance them enough so that there’s a half decent split at the top.
I’d argue more than a lot of games, Halo isn’t about twitchy aim. Most fights don’t come down to a raw full health 1v1 battle. Even then it’s not hard on either input to hit 4 perfect shots.
The skill gap in Halo is made up of much more than aim, I think that’s true for most games. Kbm only has the advantage where speed is the number 1 factor to determine fights. In Halo that is not the case.
> 2533274796540656;14:
> Balancing K&M and controller is impossible. Even if you did perfectly balance it, you’d still have people complaining that they got out shot by K&M or controller. And, unfortunately, for many their perception is reality.
>
> But like you said, you also can’t/shouldn’t segregate because at some point the population for Infinite won’t be large enough to do so. There is no perfect solution.
This realistically isn’t a concern though. The industry is massive at this point, and Infinite will likely never have problems finding, and matching players.
Heck, Halo 2 remains to be my most played Halo game to date. And that game had playlists that by todays standards were “dead”. With player counts nowhere near what we see in the most popular titles today. Yet finding matches was never a problem, even when the active user count in a playlist was under 100 players.
While there might be reason to combine the pools years down the road, there is no reason to be worried about queue times. There will be enough players exclusively on PC and console to make Halo 2’s numbers look like a small indie release.
> 2533274801036271;10:
> > 2723605488957451;9:
> > > 2533274792059509;6:
> > >
> >
> > This is not true when aim assist is as strong as it usually is. MCC is dominated by controllers.
>
> I’d imagine that has more to do with controller players being the majority of competitive Halo players over the last 20 years. That won’t change overnight. Aim is a small part of Halo skill in the grand scheme, in my opinion.
>
> I’m not saying either is better in MCC, I’ve seen top level players using both.
>
> Splitgate has one of the highest aim assists I have ever played with and the majority of top ranked players are on keyboard and mouse. There are still controller players up the top too, one of the best players is a controller user. Lots of people complain about that having crossplay too.
That has nothing to do with aim, though. Just because you have been playing Halo for years doesn’t mean a KBM player can’t come along and have better aim than you. Aim is NOT a small part of the game, it certainly isn’t everything, but it is a huge part of the game. If it was such a small part, then controller players wouldn’t need aim assist.
Which top level players use KBM?
Never played splitgate, but other crossplatform games are dominated by controller players.
> 2533274792059509;11:
> But even in MCC KB/M users have a massive advantage. There just are far fewer of them.
Hahahaha dude you are tripping. I want to see you plug in a KBM and play. The only people who share you opinion are people who either never tried KBM, or played 3 games of social against scrubs.
> 2550029253310519;19:
> MnK and Controllerplayers (wether console or on pc) should always be separated!
What if I’m a M&K player and my buddy is a controller player and we want to play together. Who do we match against? Other mixed lobbies? Further separating the player base and potentially adding queue times?