Ranked objective time - A waste of time?

I’ve been playing ranked again since the reset - I feel the points being contributed at the end of each game has vastly improved in this new season.

Before today the amount you lost on some games did not fit with the amount given here and there but I’ve noticed this has been tweaked.

Regarding CSR and Objective there is definitely more points acquired when you get more kills, it’s seems as if one flag cap equals one kill or 30 secs in the hill or with the ball equals one kill.

I get you wouldn’t get those flag caps or hill time if people weren’t slaying, but you also wouldn’t get those wins if those flags weren’t capped. I think this could be tweaked but my issue is;

How well did the person cap the flag? Did they just repeatedly run it over and over again until they got it back to base or just sit in the hill like a spare part….

Or did they do these objectives skilfully using the map, power ups and equipment with objective thinking?

I think it would be interesting if they took into account average life. If somebody capped 3 flags but had an average life of 20 seconds… you know this player has just stormed the objective over and over. But if their average life was higher and they scored a lot using the hill, ball and flag. This shows that the player has used tactical intellect to win the game for their team.

But then again I may be wrong.

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Ranked has a different feel from most of the other modes.

We like the BR starts, the no-radar, we like the way weapons, melee, grenades are balanced, the lack of grenade hitmarkers, we like how it works compared to the rest of Halo’s gametypes.

I hate starting with ARs, to be honest. I think they make a GREAT Tier 2 power weapon because they totally out-kill a BR at their optimal range. But starting with them, a busted-powerful radar that could really only be more powerful if it showed you the DIRECTION the enemy was facing, and really not-comp-friendly weapon spawns, well.

There’s a lot of reason not to play Social, outside of rank.

But yeah honestly getting rank badges is really cool and a good boast to be able to have. I’ve only got Diamond ones, but I’d love to get Onyx eventually.

This is pretty much true yes. That’s large-in-part because the best way to play Objective… Is… well, to out-kill your opponent and force them into 8-second deaths and having to run across the map to get to you. It’s just the better answer.

That’s part of why I generally prefer solo/duo queue.

No. If they’re feeding they’re not helping. Those 16 caps don’t help if the match is 3v4. That’s why your rank is based off of how much damage you’re doing, not points you get.

But then why would anyone pick up the ball, or risk their life to get the last second needed for a cap? If the optimal strategy to rank up is deal out damage and not die then objective modes should not be in the ranked playlist.

It just makes absolutely no sense to me that kills outweigh objective play in an objective mode. That is just completely counter-intuitive.

Of course I do the least damage When I got 2.40 of ball time. What else could I do. I scored the points that won the game, I cant do damage at the same time, it’s physically impossible. But the system rewarded the damage dealers, not the guy that played the actual objective, to me that is fundamentally wrong

Cus it’s still one game out of many, you shouldn’t be doing all the objective work every single game. Most games it ends up being rotated based on positioning or opportunity.

You pick up the ball or risk your life to inch the flag for the win. Focus on winning games and your CSR will follow.

Keep in mind that basic incentive of TrueSkill is to win.

Beat a team ranked above you and you rank up. Lose to a team ranked below you and you rank down. There are a few reasons your CSR may go up more or less than a team-mate - but the biggest factor is usually the shape of their MMR curve and that their MMR is significantly higher than their CSR.

Weightings such as kills per minute are designed to rank you up faster and not necessarily higher. It helps identify the big fish in a small pond - the Onyx player vs Golds. As you play stronger and stronger teams it starts to put the breaks on anyone getting a big K/min.

Keep winning and you will rank up. You will get to where you deserve to be.

I’ve been very close attention to my CSR this season. I’m pretty sure I’m P6/D1. That’s where I finished off last season. That the quality of opponents I’ve been facing. And pretty much the last three days any win has netted me big chunks of CSR (1/3 of a bar) - regardless of my W/L or objective score. Losses have barely scratched my CSR.

It’s true love. My MMR and CSR desperately want to be together!

Just now I’ve reached mid to high P6. Wins are starting to give me smaller amounts of CSR. Even when I’ve gone hard on the K/D. Losses are starting to stretch out a bit more (though, they are still smaller than my wins).

Just had a bad run there. Need to pick up my game and push for Diamond.

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I have a theory. And it’s just anecdotal.

But I think that they increase the weighting on kills for the placement games. To help them with that initial sorting.

Combine that with the system using your previous MMR as a starting point and it’s easy to see how you go into placement with friends and come out with different rankings.

After placement it seems to me that wins return to their stronger weighting over kills.

Again, just anecdotal. I don’t have any hard evidence here. For the first time I concentrated on kills in placement. Mostly in Slayer of course… but if we were losing or had a player quit I went hard on buffing the K column.

Last Season I placed G6 on my way to P6. This season P2 on my way to a similar MMR (from the quality of my opponents). So for placement it did seem to make a difference. Since then though. I’ve gained and lost CSR pretty much on the win / loss regardless of my performance on the K/D side of things.

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No, it makes perfect sense. If you’re able to slay that hard, your team should have no trouble playing the objective and thus winning. If all you can do is throw yourself into the fray and be useless then you’re not contributing. But here’s the thing. Oddball is a 3v4 no matter HOW you play it. But you NEED to drop that ball to fight, not sit there and watch while your allies carry you.

And THEIR work matters too.

So if you wanted to prioritize the player who’s not fighting over the ones who are literally doing all the gunfighting work? Then THAT’S unfair.

I have not argued anywhere in this thread that kills should not matter, and I don’t dispute that they help win the game. I am saying that objective time is literally what wins the game, and it is practically ignored in determining rank. That is fundamentally wrong in my view. There should be more than one way to rank up, and being the objective guy should be one of them, but it simply isn’t.

Also, not sure if intended but your post comes off a bit aggressive. I have no problem slaying, none at all, my stats back it up if you would like to look. Am I a top tier player? Absolutely not. But I’m decent, and slaying is what I’m best at. I am also well aware how to play oddball, that’s not the point of the thread.


Well, them’s the breaks. Rank up is kill more.

Placement matches are kinda a joke to be honest. While the CSR rating resets and your rank needs to be earned again, your MMR remains.

I’ve seen a player who I won’t name as he’s an Australian HCS team member, purposely bring his season 1 alt account into ranked at the start of season 2.

In season 1 this account was Onyx - 1678.
He then proceeded to play each of his 10 placement matches for the season 2 ranked crossplay lobby after the rank reset.

He quit, every single match for those 10 games. He was temp banned for 5 minutes twice while doing this. But each game he quit, did not fire a single shot, did not kill an enemy or die. He just quit.

After his 10th game he was given his rank.
Diamond 5 and about 3/4 the bar was full as well.

Whole system is a joke,

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The idea of placement is to refresh your MMR. Make it wide again. Give it a bit of volatility so that if you have up (or down) skilled, you can quickly re-rank. It’s basically the antidote / opposite of rank locking (lest we forget H3).

The system still wants to find your rank as quickly as possible. And the quickest way to do that is assume that you are at least the rank you were the season before.

Completely starting again kind of defeats the purpose.

So when you go into placement your first game(s) are likely to be against equal opposition. But because your MMR is wide again it is now free to move quickly in either direction if you under/over-perform vs expectation.

Regular players should go in and come out with pretty much the rank they had before. And from that point of view you can view placements a bit more cynically - a way to engage players on a regular basis.

At the very least it takes the value out of selling accounts.

I’m never quite sure how to respond to these types of scenarios.

No system is perfect. And no matter what you will do people will find anomalies.

At the end of the 10 placement games the system has to give a ranking. Because this player quit every game there is no data to make any changes on. The safest assumption is that he is the same skill he went in with?

And in the end, to everyone’s shock and horror - Onyx player comes out of placement with Onyx ranking?

What’s the joke?

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The joke is quitting matches usually results in a massive dip in your CSR but you don’t have CSR for your qualifying matches. Because of his MMR he maintained the highest rank you can get from the qualifying matches. By doing nothing.

There are people out there that will play their 10 qualifying matches and really try hard to win and stay positive (K/D) for all their matches and play better than they ever have only to have their MMR place them in a high gold/ platinum rank.

It’s like it’s designed (MMR) just to help high ranking people maintain their position after reset.

You know you can’t place higher than Diamond 5 from your placements right? It’s not possible. What’s funny is that this guy quit 10 games and obtained the highest possible qualifying rank. By doing nothing.

The thing is that it penalises your CSR. But it probably (and shouldn’t) penalise your MMR.

Don’t get me wrong. I hate quitters as much, if not more, than the next person. But dropping their MMR would hurt the match making population overall. The last thing you want to do is make it easier for people to smurf their accounts.

Two things.

If you want to rank up you have to beat teams ranked above you. There’s a bit of luck involved over the course of ten placement games - but when that game vs a higher ranked team comes up you need to win it.

And K/D probably doesn’t mean much. The metric is probably K/min and that is hard to plump if you are facing quality opposition.

That’s the tricky metric. It’s not about playing better overall. It’s about playing better when it counts. A solid performance in a game vs equal or lower ranked opponents means little to your MMR (except to convince the system it has you ranked appropriately). You need to nail those underdog wins.

And remember your CSR is based off the left hand side of your MMR curve (three standard deviations below the mean). If your curve is wide you will still have plenty of chance to move up the ranks while your curve narrows.

The system is designed to find your skill rank. If your skill hasn’t changed, your MMR won’t either.

It takes a bit longer to accurately rank players at either end of the curve. Matchmaking doesn’t necessarily give you an even distribution of matches above and below your level. So they give you a minimum ranking to give the system a little bit of slack.

Most players, especially those with access to big population servers, will climb to their actual rank quickly.

And while I doubt his MMR was penalised much by quitting… keep in mind that he may very well have qualified at a lower rank than the previous season. Just not low enough to fall below a D5 start.

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You’re a fool.
Quit your next 10 games and see what it does.

Somehow insults delivered with poor grammar don’t hurt quite as much.

For a start it would put a dent in my “holier than thou” DNF standing.

It would take a chunk off my CSR. It would give me plenty of time to clean the man-cave (God knows it needs it). But, if I did it early in the game, it probably wouldn’t do a lot to my MMR. At least nothing that wasn’t quickly repairable.

Which sucks. Because quitters suck.

At least half of those quits would be against teams ranked higher than me. So MMR loss would be minimal in those games. I would just have to hope that none of them were vs teams ranked significantly lower.

I’ve just been on an 8 game losing streak in ranked. But I lost very little rank. I was lucky that most of the games were reasonably hard fought and the two teams were pitched very closely (in terms of average MMR).

I wish it did, because in my placement matches i got the idea that it already had determined where i needed to be placed before i even played the placement matches.

In S1 i started with the placement matches when i hardly played any games and when the game was still buggy and i experienced crashes, so i placed only silver due to that. That was way to low for me, but understandable because of those bugs. After i played a lot of social matches (after most bugs were gone for me) the game only let me play against platinum players, because it recognised that that was more of my rank. I didn’t play much ranked after that. In socials i increased my stats even more.

When S2 started i first started socials again and and my stats in S2 were significantly higher then in S1. Yet when i started to do the ranked placement matches this week (since i didn’t want to do the challenges) i only got to play against gold players for the first 9 matches and i (mostly) dominated. Yet, it didnt give me higher skilled opponents to find out what my actual level was or balance of the MMR increase i should have gotten if it was actually wide again (because in both social and those ranked placement matches i kept clearly going positive). Only the last placement match i got to play against platinums and still went positive (k/d of 1.56). Yet i just got put in mid-gold anyway… Didn’t matter then i got an average k/d of 2.78 (181 kills, 65 deaths) in all those matches against those kind of players, or that the game already thought i was at least platinum in S1 (when i was less skilled then now). So how was it wide then?

This is copied from a prior post I made:

My guess would be the system is pretty similar to what was used in halo 5. On the old waypoint Menke went into good detail about how the ranking system worked.

My take away is essentially the system has a hidden MMR and a visual CSR. The reason for this is MMR is very much so performance based so there can be wild swings match to match, whereas CSR increases on decreases in a more fixed way. I do not know the exact values in halo infinite but in halo 5 it took into account if your team won or lost. If you won your CSR always went up, even if just by 1pt. And if you lost your CSR either dropped or had a 0 if you performed well but still lost.

CSR in halo 5 was based on converging to your MMR and you would get big gains until they converged because they wanted to give a sense of progression so your initial CSR after placements was lower than what MMR was.

As for how MMR was calculated, my takeaway is the game looked at did you win, what your kills per minute was and what your deaths per minute was. Each of these variables seemed to be assigned a weight with win being most important then kills/min and then deaths/min. After a few games the system gave a prediction and if you outperformed the systems prediction your MMR would go up and if you underperformed MMR dropped.

The system also took into account the competition you were playing against and so it knew the range for how a typical onyx player would perform as opposed to someone who was gold rank. So, for example if an onyx player had a silver they were matchmaking with and then the game filled in the other two teammates with plats and they played a team of plats, the system would expect the onyx player the heavily slay for their team.

From what I can tell with my playtime in infinite, the ranking system seems to be very similar to this.

As a side note, Menke stated other stats like objective points, assist, etc. were tested and did not improve the accuracy of predicting performance of individual players and win outcomes and slowed the processing time. Therefore only W/L, KPM and DPM were used.

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I agree with you, but I will say this just to play Devil’s Advocate:

Say they change the weighting so that playing the objective in objective modes becomes a viable way to rank up.

You ever been killed by your own teammate just before you cap a flag, so that they can pick it up and cap it themselves? It’s super-rare (at least these days), but I’m sure we’d see an uptick if this were implemented. If there were the first sign that objective points can help you rank up (and become a more important factor than kills), you will have players on the same team fighting over the objective, which is clearly not what we want.

I think the ranking system is working the way it was intended. I have no problems finding very evenly matched games, aside from the odd “Onyx guy pairs with Silver guy and slays tf out” scenario. It is very hard to break through your skill ceiling once you reach it, but it should be! You have to legitimately get better at the game in order to rank up.