Ranked Matchmaking - CSR vs MMR

Games Halo Infinite
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I’m genuinely curious as to what people think should be the norm for ranked play.

Should players be matched based on current CSR or MMR?
  • CSR
  • MMR

0 voters

In my opinion, matching based on MMR just draws out the process of raising your CSR to its actual value.
This also robs the player of the FEELING of progressing as you’ll always be playing the same level of opponents around your true MMR. (ie Playing a match where everyone’s CSR is D1 and you’re all playing at an Onyx MMR). HOWEVER, this makes all your matches feel relatively even [based on average team MMR which is an entirely different discussion])

Matching based on CSR will allow players to more quickly reach their ‘true’ CSR rank, but will make matches where you haven’t reached your peak rank feel uneven (Think teams full of D3s where some are still moving up, and some have peaked).

Both of these options will result in the same outcome once your CSR matches your MMR. It’s all about the journey.

1 Like
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Your MMR is your best reflection of current form.

You will get the best matches based on MMR.

343 seem to have left the MMR volatile to increase the accuracy of match making. If you didn’t have CSR you would need a relatively static MMR - more like H3.

From old images generated by Josh Menke your MMR can jump 50 or more points a game.

That allows the system to react to changes in form. And prevents smurfing etc. But it wouldn’t be very satisfying as a visible rank.

The going up yes. The going down? Not so much.

So all the CSR does is chase your MMR. But with two rules. It has to go up with a win and down with a loss (even if that’s the wrong direction to chase). And it can only jump a maximum of 15 points - which is a smoother journey.

If you want faster, all you have to do is increases the maximum CSR post game. Currently it is 15.

But you then have to accept it can fall faster as well!

The job of the CSR is to average out your MMR and smooth the journey.

But, isn’t this exactly what should be happening?

What do you mean by “true”?

It’s this somehow higher than your MMR?

I get what you are looking for here.

TrueSkill2 finds your rank fast.

There isn’t the old Halo 2 grind up through the ranks. For hundreds of games.

But that’s a good thing.

For every game that gives one player a feeling of progressing… their opponents have to be experiencing the opposite. You are essentially creating uneven games.

I agree we need something. A skill based XP rank. A reward for wins at your rank, Something.

2 Likes
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Yes and no, when climbing through the ranks, if my CSR is D1, I want to play other D1 CSRs as I climb. On wins (which should be often) I would climb pretty fast till I approached my MMR. Then it would even out and you would FEEL the peak.
Playing against a game full of Onyx players disguised as D1s is very disappointing because you KNOW everyone playing in that game doesn’t belong in D1, but there you all are…and the losing team (even though that actually lost against Onyx MMRs) will feel like they’ve lost against D1s.
And to top it off, if you’re grinding late season, you’re a D1 in a lobby full of players who’ve already reached Onyx. You have your coinflip of a match, and just creep your way up.

I could’ve worded this differently. What I mean by “true” CSR is CSR close/equal to your MMR.
Would it be higher? Sometimes, but it would always tend toward your MMR like it does now.

I’m not really looking for a change in the way your CSR/MMR goes up and down. What I’m looking for is a change in the matchmaking itself. The CLIMB is what I’m looking for. Ranked is a ladder. It doesn’t FEEL like a ladder. It feels like every other game in Infinite but with BR starts.

I’m definitely not looking for grinding hundreds of games, but that’s what Infinite currently feels like for me. I can hardly get through my placement matches in one sitting, let alone climb through 50/50 games till I get my CSR close to my MMR.

That’s kind of what happens in any competitive match…even close ones. Just the nature of competition, there’s gotta be a winner and a loser. Ranked play is not SUPPOSED to be even. If it was, everyone would have the same odds of winning the tournament. Those with higher skill levels will climb ranks faster. Using a computer to figure out our MMR just makes the climb non-existent.

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Which is why you match on MMR.

That’s the best indicator of current rank.

The frustrating bit comes from low population when you have to make up teams from a wider range of ranks.

Modern ranking systems largely eliminate the climb.

And honestly, most players are so well versed in playing FPS games that any climb is super quick anyway. And there certainly isn’t much of a climb going from one season to the next.

343 need a different reward set to encourage repeat play.

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I’m at the point where I think ranked is such a broken, unplayable mess, that its unsalvageable

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I feel similarly, but I don’t think it’s unsalvageable.

There are the blantant issues of desync & high ping, which make any sort of ranked play kinda moot. And even the disparities between controller vs M&K (each having their own dis/advantages). Why we were never allowed to fully turn off cross-input is beyond me. Why only in certain playlists?

But some of the intended design choices are even more bothersome and less likely to be fixed in my opinion.

When you arent having high ping, desync, or loss of aim assist, Infinite actually feels pretty good on a mechanical level to me.

2 Likes
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^I totally agree with that sentiment, when the desync and other issues aren’t present, the game is fantastic. However, the endlessly frustrating part of that comes from the fact that it happens so rarely when I play, more often than not the issues run rampant and ruin any chance of enjoyment. When and or if I get tired of MW2 several months from now, I’ll possibly check back in, but I will absolutely leave in a moments notice if they haven’t resolved these major issues.

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Extremely frustrating for sure.

But not automatically moot.

If you took a bunch of sprinters and made them race in formal dinner wear - they wouldn’t hit PB’s, but the order they crossed the line would be pretty similar.

ELO systems just sort players into order.

Desync and lag just make it less fun.

A lot less. :frowning:

Non issue overall.

You will be ranked into a position according to your performance.

If you are ranked 1500 - then the only thing that matters is that you perform as a 1500. It doesn’t matter that you are using one type of input… or what your ranking would be on the other type of input.

You are 1500.

If you are in my team I want you to perform as a 1500. And if you are my opponent I expect you to perform as a 1500.

It doesn’t matter your input, your fps, or your gaming chair. As long as you perform as ranked then we can just get on with it.

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I respectfully disagree. Even if a controller player and an M&K are both 1500. Them fighting eachother is a drastically different engagement than if two players of the same input are fighting.

If I know an opponent is on M&K, I will keep them away from precision weapons at all costs. I’m ALOT less likely to take on long-range fights, etc.

M&K will do the opposite.

The fact that these advantages and disadvantages exist changes the gameplay.

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The problem is, we’re not all wearing even close to the same thing. Some of us showed up in athletic shorts and some have full tuxedos.

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This is definitely true. With the way current SBMM is, i dont even have to grind out my CSR to know where I fit. I only have to look at my recent matches and where my opponents have spent all their hard-earned time getting to. Absolutely no reason for me to keep playing ranked. I get the same experience in social queue.

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It’s not a true ranking system… It weighs too heavily on KDA… In fact it’s almost exclusive to KDA. Second to that wins. For instance right now my KDA is not good. But I’m almost a gold rank. Why is my KDA so bad??? I have a team. And I’m a playmaker. I use game sense and play the objective. While yes this may cost me a death and often a 1/1 trade… I use tactics to open double and triple kills for my team. Make it easy for them. The problem with that is simple when we win I go up 6-8 points… When we lose I go down 12-15 points. Then we have to use Smurf accounts to boost me back up to playing with my team… now I could play alone to do that however. This brought out a second issue. We have screen shots where I go 22 and 4… With objective time nearly maxed… Lose the match and still suffer a 12 point loss to rank. Additionally I have won games at similar stats and still only go up 6-8 points. This system has created a culture of. Refusing to hold the oddball, go for flag Capt, hold and defend zones and hills… And overall non team work for the purpose of protecting the KDA. This causes your stats to go up and maximizes your points per win. Minimizes your points per loss. 6-7 out of 10 games I play without my team have at least 2 players doing this. It’s not fun. It has promoted two cultures to the point of normality. Non team anti social play… And smurfing culture.

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There are videos on you tube that highlight the advantages of playing on PC vs console. Especially since aim assist has been added to PC. PC gamers will always have the input lag advantage. Ever notice sometimes PC players can kill you at full shield with only 2 br hits? That’s because 2 of the shots didn’t even register on your console. Or they melee you in the face at full shield and you die? Again input lag. The server delays everything very slightly giving you a live feed of what’s expected to happen on the server itself everything is happening in real time. Here real time is at the server which is processing inputs as you play. So if the PC gamer has the latest and greatest of gaming PCs. And max connection and you have a console i.e. xbox or PS5. Your machine is sending information to the server slower. The server processes your inputs later. And shows you the outcome slightly later. So that puch in the face… He was actually past you already. Those br shots… got dropped in processing. Even having an older generation console is a disadvantage… I have an Xbox one gen 2. My primary partner uses an Xbox x. Brand new. He can tell me what game we are playing and who are teammates are while I’m looking at the loading screen. I have a t1 internet connection. However the Xbox gen 2 only has processing speeds maxed at 500 mbs. What I’m saying is if you are actually competitive hardware matters. A lot.

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Not true.

There is no weighting for KDA.

And I believe they actually found assists to be a negative predictor of increased rank.

Again - not true.

The main driver of TrueSkill2, or any ELO based ranking system, is to beat opponents ranked higher than you.

What do you define as not good?

And Gold 6 / Platinum 1 is average rank. So you are on the left hand side of the skill curve.

Not sure what that means?

The only thing you need to ask yourself - does the way I play help the team to win the game?

This tends to suggest that you regularly lose games to teams ranked below you.

If you are using Smurf accounts then you don’t deserve the rank you have.

Bottom line is you lost. So you rank down.

And your the CSR system doesn’t look at your KD. Just who you lost to and where your MMR is in relation to your CSR.

If you are losing a lot of CSR you have either just been beaten by a team ranked well above you - or your MMR is way lower than your CSR and is pulling it down as hard as it can.

And your team Smurfing is probably not helping.

Which is silly. And 343 are partly to blame for not explaining things.

The win is important.

And the only personal metric is KPM.

But bottom line. Keep winning and you rank up.

If you get to the stage where players stop working as a team - you stop winning - and you don’t rank up.

But I’ll think you will find those who just play. And play properly to maximise to their team’s chance of winning. They have no problem ranking up to where they deserve to be.

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Not at all. I have what the player population refers to as a “broken account” when my team loses which is rare. I will lose 12-15 points… My team will lose 6-8. When we win I go up 6-8 points . And my team goes up 12 -15… By team I’m referring to the player I regularly party with. Develop strategies… Talk to on FB . Chat call text. The reason for this is simple I die alot. Death is not necessarily part of a good strategy. But it works. If I can move in solo and do enough damage before dying to leave 2 3 or even 4 enemy in a small area cracked - absolute… Maybe pick up a kill along the way… Hopefully not die. So the other three players I’m playing with can launch a second assault and easily kill everyone in that area. We have a 2/3/ sometimes 4. To 1 trade. Or as a team 2/3/4 kills … To my one death. Which in the final outcome creates a win for the team. But gives a false reading to my mechanical skills. What we have employed here is creative skill. Gauge where the enemy is… Enter the room (timing and position) maximize damage in a disproportionate atmosphere… Relay damage report to wave 2. Because my mechanical skills look bad. I gain very little in points on a win And lose Max in the even if a loss. Eventually the separation is bad enough where we can no longer party together. Can’t play with my real life friends. Truth be told I’m a noob… Sort of… I quit halo when the weapons update on halo 2 nerfed my favorite combo. And everyone simply used the noob combo every game … the whole game. It got boring. I came back to play with my friends. I have RL combat and strategy EXP. I study the maps, spawn points ect. So your confused by the term playmaker… A playmaker sets up the play for teammates to make the play… Players like idk “lunchbox”. Playmakers are not superstars and no usually in the spotlight. We play behind the scenes.

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You are playing regularly in a team of widely spread ranks.

So the system ranks you up and down - but also relative to them.

And in this case your KPM is probably the weighting that is ranking you down. At least compared to your team mates.

No it’s not.

Pretty much every article I’ve ever read has said - “don’t die”.

No it doesn’t.

Sounds like they are using you as a glass cannon to pad their own stats.

I would argue that if you went into each skirmish as a team of four you would do even better.

Sounds like you should be the one cleaning up their kills?

It’s true that a lot of good play goes “unrewarded” on the stats sheet.

And that’s true of any team game.

So you take your reward in the “win”.

As for your tactic of rushing ahead and setting up your team mates. It’s not going to work for you personally. You need to get your KPM up to match your higher ranked team mates. And that is hard to do if you are spending half the game respawning.

And I doubt you’ll climb the rankings as a team either. Better teams aren’t going to fall for it.

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I’m sorry I over simplify things because detailing exactly what your team is up to on a forum isn’t exactly smart. Strategy must adapt to circumstances. That is life… Some games I have short kills. But also short death … plenty of assists but any player can tell you those drop off more often than not. Some days I watch and wait. It really depends on game type… map layout. Current score… Time remaining. Enemy locations. Enemy strategy to that point… Ect. But a win is a win. Most of us don’t have to rank up together. The onyx players have Smurf accounts the diamonds and high platinums are within range. And I’m making my way up… Slowly grinding win… After win… After win. Current win percentage 64% against higher ranked players. But KPM\DPM so I crawl up. You cannot in one hand say kpm gets you higher and on the other day the win is more important. The truth is if you are below platinum you can lose every objective based game baiting and killing for a day right down to bronze… but what this did for you kpm dpm you can gain it back then some one a second day. The win should outweigh kpm/dpm. You can go on YouTube and watch some finals/ championship videos. Playing assault ( 2 players not even fighting) 1 player pressing the objective. This map control strategy created a killtrocity and then some. Strategy wins. Individual kpm not as much as you would like to think.

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It probably only matters if you are an HCS team… or specifically playing that team in the next match.

I doubt discussing tactics on Waypoint is really going to affect your rank.

Cool.

I love the tactic side of things to.

It can be fascinating.

Just to be clear.

KPM is a weighting. And I think it ranks you up faster… but not necessarily higher.

But in a regular squad setting - the ranks tend to spread out as the weighting is exaggerated by the fact that you all have the same W/L pattern. And in this case some players will lose (have their rank dragged down) and others will win (higher than expected ranks).

What you are essentially getting is your rank of functioning inside that team.

That’s a big drop.

Once you have played 50+ games your MMR curve should be reasonably stable (lower sigma value).

It would take a huge drop in form to drop three divisions.

If you did drop that much CSR the system would almost consider you a Smurf.

So yes. Your insane KPM in a bronze lobby would identify you as a possible Smurf and your MMR would rise VERY quickly.

But your CSR would still only go up a maximum of 15 points a win.

Definitely.

And the best way to think of KPM is as a reflection of your ability to win 1v1.

Don’t get hung up on total kills or KD.

Go to Waypoint after the match and see if you met your expected kills and deaths. These are calculated from your KPM.

Keep track of them.

Look at what people the rank above you are getting. If you can match that then you will tend to rank up.

It’s not about blitzing a match here or there.

It’s about maintaining the same KPM over time as your opponents.

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When Josh used to answer somebody who thought they should be ranked higher - he would come back to them with a couple of key stats.

Their win rate vs that rank.

And their KPM vs that rank.

So he would essentially say that the reason you are Diamond is because you have 50% win rate vs Diamond and because you have a Diamond KPM vs Diamond.

The reason you aren’t Onyx is that you have a Diamond level win rate vs Onyx (which would be around 25%) and a Diamond level KPM vs Onyx (which from memory was around the 1.0 mark).

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I only just noticed you said assists were a negative predictor. Am I to understand that gaining assists by helping teammates is having a negative impact on CSR. Actions like providing overwatch and. Suppressive fire are actually bad for me personally? Or am I misunderstanding?