Ranked is Broken as Long as Objective Players are Punished

[Stoatbag]

@Naqser

If we assume that everyone in a match is evenly matched according to their CSR, because everyone in the match got matched together, right? Then it could very well be another “incompatible” player’s fault that they’re not performing to their standard.
That is not something you should forget, actions you take affect others.

Rarely if ever does it genuinely match you with people your level. The range is quite wide, again due to player count.

And it could be, but I do not think that is fair to say in general. If you captured 15 strongholds and held an even kdr you would still rank down if your teammates did not help. It doesn’t matter how big of a benefit you are to your team, you will still rank down. Which I am totally against.

@Naqser

Okay, any suggestions on how to go about with that, not looking at the stats as they are?
What if the player with the most death, enabled the team two kills for each death?
How do you check a poor performing player’s contribution to the team and the impact they have allowing better performing players to really perform well?
A good performing player can be the cause of a loss, or another player performing poorly. Likewise, a poorly performing player can cause a win, or enable another player to get glowing stats.
In what way would you account for that?

Honestly, player score would be a good start. That captures kills and objective play, it captures assists and kills. Combine that with a damage metric for high damage output, a boost for accuracy etc…

Then obviously supplemented by other relevant stats for different modes, eg Kda in slayer or strongholds capture, flag time, oddball time etc… and there should be an underlying boost for a win and reduction for a loss. To offset the loss you should have to have performed significantly above your team and the loss should be difficult to overcome, but the damage to your rank should be limited when you performed well.

The current approach putting win and damage/kill output above everything else is horribly simplistic and causes toxic playstyles.

@Naqser

Actually, W/L is sufficient if everyone went in solo. As I said, the only single constant is you.
With enough players to sustain a healthy pool of players, you’ll accumulate enough games to give you a good indication of where you are skill rating wise. You will contribute to wins and losses in those games, and with enough wins and losses over a period of time the algorithm will have found your spot.
If you win a lot against players rated the same as you, you’ll climb.
Start losing a lot, and you’ll sink down, at some point if you do not improve and start winning more, you’ll hover in place with your rating.

Agree with all of that to an extent, but still think there should be more nuance as it is still too team focussed to be a valid ranking system for the individual. It is relying on correlation, not trying to actually value the outputs from that players performance over time, which ideally a good ranking system should. But I can live with it in solo.

My problem is that the hard WL distinction being applied in an open mode with stacked parties against randoms just destroys the validity of that argument. In that playlist the WL metric gives a skewed outcome. And you can see that by the fact that top players almost always play at least duo when in the open playlist. Playing alone is putting people at a massive disadvantage, which I really dislike given it is the only playlist with a population.

Either way, given the population the argument is kind of redundant. I think they have failed to design a reliable individual ranking system in any playlist, that’s my bottom line. They are ranking teams, which is an entirely different thing.

[Darwi]

@Stoatbag

It isn’t all about the win.

It’s mostly about the win.

@Stoatbag

if you win, and held the oddball for 2 minutes but went negative then you will barely rank up at all (+1-2 CSR),

The CSR change is independent of personal performance.

It doesn’t matter how long you held the ball.

Or how many kills you did, or didn’t do.

It’s the result, the difference in skill to your opponent, and the pull of your MMR.

@Stoatbag

the game expects you to have a high kpm and kdr.

Not quite.

The game expects you to match the KPM of your rank.

Think about a match full of Onyx players. If everyone does their bit they should get about 12-13 kills in a match that lasts for around 8 to 10 minutes. So around 1.2 to 1.5 KPM.

And that’s all you have to do. Show the system you can match the KPM of the players you are playing.

If you are initially ranked too low the system uses high KPM to rank you up faster. But if you are in a game where you smash lower ranked opponents then the system is largely going to ignore your KPM.

@Stoatbag

and held the oddball for 2 minutes but went negative

Again, going negative is not a pre-requisite of holding the oddball. I agree that you may not be setting yourself up for the highest KPM in the game. But there is no reason you shouldn’t be fighting back.

But if a player is hiding their lack of 1v1 skills by “playing the objective” - they don’t deserve to rank up anyway.

@Stoatbag

You need to win and be the top slayer to rank up, which in an objective mode is just a confused approach.

343 are confusing everyone with their lack of communication.

You don’t need to be the top slayer to rank up.

It is true that the better KPM in a game may help you rank up faster. But it won’t rank you up higher.

The “objective player”, if they truly can hold their own in a 1v1, will rank up in time.

@Stoatbag

And it does make sense for the lowest ranked player to hold the ball in order to have the best chance of winning the game.

It does.

@Stoatbag

But that player will get no reward for that win, because they weren’t the slayer. They will get a +1-2 CSR.

Again. The CSR is independent of personal performance.

You just need to feed the system a solid KPM vs your opponent. And again, you don’t have to be the top slayer. You just have to match them.

@Stoatbag

There is no benefit to being the objective player. So I will not pick up an oddball thrown to me any more. I’ve learnt my lesson on that. My message to those onyx players who do this. If you are in the best position to pick it up then do it yourself.

Then overall you will probably lose more games and end up with a lower overall rank.

But hey, as a dedicated slayer you will at least get to that lower rank faster.

The key is to accept your position in the pecking order and hold the ball. But at the appropriate time drop it and fight alongside the Onyx players. I’ve actually found that I get quite a few kills stepping in and finishing off what the better players have started. And during the game there are plenty of kills still up for grabs when the opposition have the ball.

The bit that hurts the ball carrier is that when the dust has settled your immediate goal is to pick up the ball and earn time on the clock. The other players get to wander around, reload, and scavenge weapons and equipment - which they can invest into more kills.

[Darwi]

I think where the ranking system could be a little tighter is to separate out the KPM from the time playing the objective.

eg. take the time holding the oddball off the clock. If it’s a ten minute game and I got 12 kills and held the ball for 2 minutes… that’s actually 12 kills in 8 minutes. Which is probably a better / fairer indication of my 1v1 skills.

But still, any change would rely on communication from 343. Which they are bad at. Which is why we still have people thinking their K/D ranks them up.

Sigh.

[General_Fox]

Slayer, and variants of it should be the only game mode where kills and death factor in anything in general.

Hell, I’d argue they shouldn’t even show how many kills or deaths anyone gets in objective game modes, since they’re not relevant when it comes to scoring.

[Datassette]

I hadn’t played in a month or two. First match back in ranked I play my heart out. Someone on the other team dips out when we go up 2-1 in King of the Hill. Match ends and I land top of the leaderboard with nothing to show for it. I remembered pretty quickly why I dipped out.

[Darwi]

@General_Fox

Slayer, and variants of it should be the only game mode where kills and death factor in anything in general.

If you think about it - all the games are variants of Slayer. The best time to push any objective is when you outnumber your opponent.

And it’s KPM. Not K/D or K-D. It’s a stat that reflects your performance at that skill level. You can’t fake it (like K/D for example).

And it’s only a weighting.

People get hung up over CSR changes post game. And these don’t take KPM into account!

That person who got more CSR than you. They did so because of their relative rank vs the opposition and the fact that their MMR is above their CSR (eg. post placement).

If you look carefully enough there are plenty of people who get heaps of kills who get the same, or even less, CSR than you do.

It’s poor communication on 343’s part.

@Datassette

Match ends and I land top of the leaderboard with nothing to show for it.

Just out of interest, what would you have liked for the game to give you?

It’s very unlikely after a month or two out you somehow improved in skill.

And even if you did, the game shouldn’t jump to any conclusion in a single game. Would you be prepared to drop rank just as quickly with every loss?

I assume you want some sort of XP rank reward. And I think it’s much needed. Weighted to scores and medals.

[Stoatbag]

@Darwi

It’s mostly about the win.

It’s mostly about individual performance, not the win. Or at least it should be. That’s what the system is meant to be ranking.

@Darwi

The CSR change is independent of personal performance.

It doesn’t matter how long you held the ball.

Or how many kills you did, or didn’t do.

It’s the result, the difference in skill to your opponent, and the pull of your MMR.

All of this is yet more evidence that it is ranking your teams performance overall, not your individual performance. Which is what I think is wrong.

@Darwi

Not quite.

The game expects you to match the KPM of your rank.

Think about a match full of Onyx players. If everyone does their bit they should get about 12-13 kills in a match that lasts for around 8 to 10 minutes. So around 1.2 to 1.5 KPM.

And that’s all you have to do. Show the system you can match the KPM of the players you are playing.

If you are initially ranked too low the system uses high KPM to rank you up faster. But if you are in a game where you smash lower ranked opponents then the system is largely going to ignore your KPM.

If you hold the ball for 2 min it is genuinely not possible to match the kill output of the other similar ranked players in the lobby if they are playing as well as you. That is a full 120 seconds of the game where you physically cannot shoot. Yes you drop the ball to contribute to the fight, but you stand no chance of matching the kills of your equally skilled teammate who is just going for kills. As a result, he ranks up quicker. That is fundamentally flawed.

@Darwi

Again, going negative is not a pre-requisite of holding the oddball. I agree that you may not be setting yourself up for the highest KPM in the game. But there is no reason you shouldn’t be fighting back.

But if a player is hiding their lack of 1v1 skills by “playing the objective” - they don’t deserve to rank up anyway.

Sure, and that is just an example. You don’t have to be going negative. Even going a bit positive while getting 2 mins of ball time you will not rank up well. The point is that your kpm drops when you play the objective, to some extent, there is no doubt about that. And you are punished for that because you kpm is lower.

And the point of the game is playing the objective. Viewing that as ‘hiding their lack of 1v1 skills’ is a really twisted way of viewing that in my view.

@Darwi

Again. The CSR is independent of personal performance.

You just need to feed the system a solid KPM vs your opponent. And again, you don’t have to be the top slayer. You just have to match them.

And this is exactly what I’m complaining about. CSR is independent of individual performance.

@Darwi

Then overall you will probably lose more games and end up with a lower overall rank.

But hey, as a dedicated slayer you will at least get to that lower rank faster.

The key is to accept your position in the pecking order and hold the ball. But at the appropriate time drop it and fight alongside the Onyx players. I’ve actually found that I get quite a few kills stepping in and finishing off what the better players have started. And during the game there are plenty of kills still up for grabs when the opposition have the ball.

If I win while a high onyx player is cleaning up all the kills and I get objective time I go +1-2 CSR. Waste of time. If I lose while a high onyx player is cleaning up all the kills while I get objective time I could go -5 CSR. That is lose lose. And I should note, I still get reasonably big CSR jumps when I slay out and win, so I’m still moving up the ranks.

So until the ranking system makes playing the objective a viable way to rank up, then I will allow my teammates to share that load. And if that means the onyx 2000 is mad because we lost, then he should have picked up the ball. I am not a pawn they can use to rank up at my own expense. Because I will lose less CSR if I have an ok slaying performance against a higher ranked team than if I played the objective and we lost. So actually, I’ll rank down slower.

[M1STA_WU1FY]

Well, you have to win to rank up, period…but to get any real credit you have to get a lot of kills and win. Nothing but those two factors really seems to matter.

[Stoatbag]

Completely agree with this as a suggestion actually!

[Darwi]

@Stoatbag

It’s mostly about individual performance, not the win. Or at least it should be. That’s what the system is meant to be ranking.

I’ve always thought of your rank as a “team performance” rank. It’s your individual ability to function as a member of a team. Good players who have the ability to gel with team-mates will rank higher. Particularly those who can adapt to the needs of the team at hand.

@Stoatbag

If you hold the ball for 2 min it is genuinely not possible to match the kill output of the other similar ranked players in the lobby if they are playing as well as you.

That is true.

But I think people over weigh the influence of the KPM. By playing the objective you may end up down the leader board a bit. You may rank up a little slower. But it shouldn’t really rank you any lower in the end.

You will have plenty of time during that game, and others, to settle your overall KPM.

The quickest way to rank up is to find teams that share the objective responsibilities. Not only will you win more games, but everyone gets the chance to slay.

However, some players are drawn to the objective because they lack the skills to win a 1v1 at that level. They won’t rank up as much.

But that’s at the extremes. KPM is a weighting, and that’s all.

I think people see someone else jump more CSR and get lost in the emotion of the moment. The most likely cause of their bigger jump is that their MMR is higher than their CSR (eg. still working post placement).

@Stoatbag

The point is that your kpm drops when you play the objective, to some extent, there is no doubt about that. And you are punished for that because you kpm is lower.

Perspective. You only need to maintain a KPM around 1.2 to 1.5 to stay a particular level.

It’s not a lot.

And I don’t get the feeling that you are punished horribly for dragging a bit.

Holding the ball and getting no kills and dying a lot though… that’s bad play.

@Stoatbag

And the point of the game is playing the objective. Viewing that as ‘hiding their lack of 1v1 skills’ is a really twisted way of viewing that in my view.

It is.

But there are a lot of players out there who hide their shortfall in skills by sacrificing their game to the objective. When I play with my son’s - I tend to do that as well. I guess it’s a natural defence mechanism.

So don’t get me wrong. I proudly play the objective. But I’m also realistic. Anyone can carry something from A to B. The real skill is winning the object, clearing the path, and keeping the object.

I suspect a lot of these “objective” players struggle a bit when the game switches to Slayer. I know I do when playing with the “kids”.

@Stoatbag

And this is exactly what I’m complaining about. CSR is independent of individual performance.

So what individual performance would you focus on?

Apart from all the ones that Microsoft clearly showed didn’t correlate to skill ranking?

ie. If you use them to rank the player up you just get smashed in the next few games.

@Stoatbag

If I win while a high onyx player is cleaning up all the kills and I get objective time I go +1-2 CSR. Waste of time. If I lose while a high onyx player is cleaning up all the kills while I get objective time I could go -5 CSR. That is lose lose. And I should note, I still get reasonably big CSR jumps when I slay out and win, so I’m still moving up the ranks.

Haven’t we already established that personal performance doesn’t contribute to CSR jumps.

@Stoatbag

So until the ranking system makes playing the objective a viable way to rank up, then I will allow my teammates to share that load. And if that means the onyx 2000 is mad because we lost, then he should have picked up the ball. I am not a pawn they can use to rank up at my own expense. Because I will lose less CSR if I have an ok slaying performance against a higher ranked team than if I played the objective and we lost. So actually, I’ll rank down slower.

It just depends on the team dynamic. Ideally you would get a solid mix of matches where the team dynamic means you get to carry the ball some games and slay in others.

I’ve played in games where the obviously good player was holding the ball and wouldn’t give it up. It can be just as frustrating the other way. I don’t know if they had a challenge of some sort to complete - but it does make it harder when the team doesn’t gel.

[o_NotHumble_o]

I do like that they added individual performance as a factor to how you rank up or down but let’s be honest here, when I have 2 minutes of ball time and the next 3 people have less than a minute combined, the ranking system should know who was the primary reason we won that game. It’s not the dude who went 40-20 while playing solo slayer in a team objective game.

[Darwi]

@o_NotHumble_o

It’s not the dude who went 40-20 while playing solo slayer in a team objective game.

Couple of things…

1. If someone (dude, dudette, or other) goes 40 and 20 you’ve probably won the game in a cake walk. Holding the ball isn’t going to be a problem when you outnumber the enemy so.

2. The system looks at their kills, divides it by the time (making it KPM), and takes into account the skill of the enemy. If that player nails 40-20 vs a team ranked above them - they deserve to rank up a bit faster.

3. It’s just a weighting (the KPM). The objective player may not get the same chance to shine… but as long as they keep winning, and show that they can go at around 1.2 to 1.5 KPM, they will rank up appropriately.

[Dormiglione]

If one of the team member goes 40-20 in an objectives match, its not sure that this team won the match. Usually, that player that goes 40-20 does not contribute much if the team wins the match.
I tell you what i experienced a lot in ranked stronghold and koth matches. There are always 1 or 2 players that dont capture the base, they just shoot from distance to get the kills.
Now you say, they cleaned the area. Right, but why they dont move to capture the area once it is cleared? I lost many ranked objective matches, because of player who want to keep their sacred k/d ratio positive.

[Majin_Eclair]

Oh i lost a few matches due to these types of players like at least one of my friends who prefers going for a high kd helps out with capturing objectives

[M1STA_WU1FY]

That’s the problem I notice a lot too. People tend to go all in with either role instead of being a blend. Like, I slay hard but I still make time to contribute to the objective, especially in strongholds and flag. But most randoms either throw their body at the flag or ball without even shooting or they just sit back and watch everyone die and clean up the kills. It’s rare to find someone who meets in the middle

[azbox]

This is what i came here to say, theres arguments for both.

I myself do both, i play the objectice and farm kills.

I’ll clear the area and go in for the objective, if i die on the objective so be it.

This argument of only kd matters in oddball or ctf as you deny the enemy the objective is garbage.

So your an onyx? Cool your rank doesnt impress me…when i look at onyx stats and see 1.6kd overall and then click on matches to see no contribution to the objective i am not impressed.

The objective is to complete the objective, not deny the enemy and run the clock down.

With that attitude if everyone slayed on your team the oddball would never be touched and eventually the opposing team will touch it enough to win.

So many bragging posts on reddit…i went 30-0 in CTF on BTB…cool bro the end score was 1-1 and time lapsed. Thats not a win, 30-0kd with 0 steals, 0 returns, 0 caps is not impressive to me. Id rather go 20-15 with 4 steals, 2 returns and a cap.

[Dormiglione]

Same here, im always helping to cover the flag / oddball carrier. Helping to clean and capture the base. Even if my k/d goes negative. If this helps to get a few more seconds holding the base or defending the carrier, so he can score then it was worth.
But i get mad when i see player with high k/d but 0 contribution to the objective.

[II_Alex_V_II]

No you don’t. The current system rewards poor and selfish play by just going for kills. Someone who played 23-17 with 2:00 ball time played way better than the guy with 28-18 and 0:11. All that time he can’t shoot, his position is exposed, cooldown on dropping the ball, reduced walking speed. The guy picking up the ball in this system is the sucker. If he wins he doesn’t rank up a lot because of lower kpm. The guy that just plays slayer always wins. Either he ranks up a lot because he had a -Yoink!- picking up the ball or he loses but then he doesn’t lose much rank because the system sees his kpm is a bit better and downranks him less. It is completely broken.

[Darwi]

@Dormiglione

If one of the team member goes 40-20 in an objectives match, its not sure that this team won the match.

I did say “probably”.

But right off the bat this player has sent the opposition into 20x respawns. At what? About 15 seconds penalty each.

If the team hasn’t made use of that extra 5 minutes of 4v3 time… that’s a problem.

@Dormiglione

I tell you what i experienced a lot in ranked stronghold and koth matches. There are always 1 or 2 players that dont capture the base, they just shoot from distance to get the kills.

Yep. It’s frustrating. But these players are just bad team-mates. In the end they wont win as many games and they will stop ranking up.

@Dormiglione

I lost many ranked objective matches, because of player who want to keep their sacred k/d ratio positive.

Again. They lost too. But hopefully your team orientated play serves you better in the long run.

@azbox

I myself do both, i play the objectice and farm kills.

I’ll clear the area and go in for the objective, if i die on the objective so be it.

And this, I would say, is the epitome of good play.

@azbox

This argument of only kd matters in oddball or ctf as you deny the enemy the objective is garbage.

I don’t think a lot of people argue that.

K/D is such a useless stat.

But being able to hold your own in the 1v1 is crucial in your push for the objective.

@II_Alex_V_II

The current system rewards poor and selfish play by just going for kills.

But does it?

There is a weighting for KPM. Which is inherently different to K/D or K-D etc.

But apart from that it’s all about the win.

@II_Alex_V_II

The guy picking up the ball in this system is the sucker. If he wins he doesn’t rank up a lot because of lower kpm.

The win is the big thing.

The higher KPM may rank up a bit faster if their MMR is higher than their CSR (eg. post placement). But that’s about it. The thing about KPM is that you can’t milk it against players of your own rank or above.

And the objective player should still be getting a reasonable KPM. It’s not like they come out of the game with 0.

@II_Alex_V_II

Either he ranks up a lot because he had a -Yoink!- picking up the ball or he loses but then he doesn’t lose much rank because the system sees his kpm is a bit better and downranks him less. It is completely broken.

And how do you know he ranks up a lot?

Do you follow their career and see what rank they eventually attain?

Because it’s important to keep in mind that the CSR gains and losses you see at the end of the game are not influenced by your performance in that game. It doesn’t matter how many kills you got or flags you returned. Your post game CSR change is based on the result, the relative skill of your opponent, and the pull of your MMR.

If you have played enough games in the season that your MMR is narrow / stable, and your CSR has matched, then you won’t get a lot of CSR points unless you actually improve your play. If you are post placement and your MMR is wide / volatile, and your CSR is lower than it’s mean, then you will get more CSR for the win.

I’m sure if you deep dived into everyone’s final rank you would see that the selfish K/D players don’t rank out as high as you think.

[Datassette]

This system is such garbage. Look what it does to people. Another day another series of arguments about this system. It is deeply unsatisfying.