Randomness vs.Skill

There are some misconceptions concerning the relationship between randomness and skill that have been expressed on this forum. I would like to give everyone some food for thought. As an aside, I am a published author on applied statistics in academic journals. While game theory is not my specialty, it is a subset of applied statistics and utilizes a statistical approach.

Another poster in another thread - arguing against the inclusion of random elements to the gameplay - asked how much skill is involved in guessing cards pulled randomly from a deck. While the answer is “None”, it is the wrong question to ask. To find the right question, we must decide what we mean by “skill”.

First, let’s look at a completely deterministic (i.e., no randomness) gaming example, like the original Mario Bros. Whether we measure skill as time required to complete a level, defeat all enemies, maximizing level score, or finding all bonuses, the measurement quantifies the ability to press controller buttons in the optimal sequence using visual cues to supplement memory. In other words, “skill” in Mario Bros. is a proxy for memorization ability, and the expected value of a successful outcome is entirely a function of memory, where expected value is the ratio of successful outcomes to total attempts.

Second, let’s look at a game where the gameplay elements are entirely stochastic (i.e., random), but are used only once and the total number is known, like Blackjack. When a new set of card decks are used, the expected value of a player’s successful outcome is less than 0.5 due to the house advantage. This means that, overall, the player will lose.

As the game plays out, however, the expected value changes. Regardless of the cards that have been played, the house must play in a defined manner. This manner is optimized for maximum house winnings based on random draws. As the cards play out, the actual odds change due to certain combinations of draws being no longer available. A player that tracks the cards played and adjusts his/her own play according to the actual draw odds at the moment can achieve an expected value greater than 0.5. So while this player will not win every hand, overall, this player will be able to beat the house.

Like the Mario Bros example, skill in Blackjack is a function of memory: first the cards played, and second a table of instantaneous odds. And though the game elements are completely random, an unskilled player will be a losing player and a skilled player can be a winning player. It is arguable that it actually increased the skill necessary to win, as one could argue that more people would be successful at Mario Bros than blackjack, given an equal opportunity to learn and play both games.

Third, we ought to make a brief mention of another stochastic game where the elements are used more than once: Texas Hold’em. For each game, the deck is randomized, and cards played on the previous hand do not affect the odds of cards played on the present hand - thus increasing the total randomness of the game play. Moreover, the game is played against human opponents of varying abilities (more randomness) who will not always act in the theoretically optimal fashion given the hand and community cards (bluffing, trapping).

Because of the human element, there is no theoretical solution for expected values beyond pre-flop play. While some have designed automatic playing software that can beat most human opponents, unless the software deliberately plays with some element of randomness, any reasonably skilled Hold’em player can beat them. Only the most sophisticated software approaches world class ability, and none have yet exceeded it.

Despite the large stochastic component to poker play - or, rather, because of it - most would say that playing world-class poker requires more skill than world-class Mario Bros or blackjack. Among non-humans, computers would agree.

However, what may have gone unnoticed is that the definition of skill has changed. In Mario Bros and blackjack, skill was a proxy for memory. While some amount of memory in poker is crucial, many other factors are just as important - or even more important. Interestingly, one of the most crucial factors is randomizing one’s own play rather than simply responding in the probabilistically optimal fashion based on the cards presented.

In game theory, randomizing game elements generally result in higher skill levels being required to maintain expected value above a certain level when compared to leaving game elements deterministic. Randomness generally also requires use of skills beyond memory, while deterministic games can, in theory, be mastered solely via memorization.

The general rule is the less deterministic the game elements are arranged, the harder it becomes to maintain high expected values. In many cases, randomness also reduces the dependence on the memorization ability (though not always; c.f. Mario Bros vs. blackjack). What is important in game design is whether the degree of randomization renders the likelihood of mastery negligible.

In terms of Halo, let us assume that we will measure “skill” in terms of K/D. The base case we will look at is very simple: Equal starts in an octagon with no AAs, ordnance, or specializations. Generically, two abilities will contribute to a high skill measurement: gun skills and movement skills. Given the simplicity of the setting, few other abilities will have a significant impact.

Now let us add in the ability for different weapon starts. This adds a random element (which gun did each player choose) and a deterministic one (the characteristics of each weapon). Now an additional set of skills are required to maintain expected value: first being able to select a weapon for one’s self that maximizes performance given the game situation, and second being able to recognize the opponent’s weapon and playing in a manner that minimizes whatever advantages it has. Since the outcome is no longer dependent solely on gun skill and movement skills, the relative importance of these two items decreases.

This can be viewed in two ways. If one defines “skill” as primarily gun / movement, then one can reasonably argue that the random element decreased the skill necessary for mastery. If one defines “skill” as all abilities that increase expected value, then the random element increased the skill necessary for mastery. As more and more random elements are added, gun / movement skills will become less and less important, and other skills will become more important.

In a game with a high degree of randomness, the number of “mediocre” players increases because the proportion of expected value determined by random factors increases relative to the proportion determined by skill. However, while this pushes more players into the “middle of the pack” (since it hides skill differences below a certain threshold), it enhances the differences between players with enough skill to stand out.

So the question randomness is not really a question of skill. It is actually a question of whether you want to more efficiently rank bad players or more efficiently rank good players based on a defined set of abilities.

This post is far too intelligent for this board. I felt like I was reading a paper so I had to stop after two paragraphs

> This post is far too intelligent for this board. I felt like I was reading a paper so I had to stop after two paragraphs

Pretty much this. You’re gonna have to dumb it down a bit. :stuck_out_tongue:

MIND…BLOWN

Seriously, that was an interesting read even though it was a little highbrow for Waypoint.

Tl;dr anyone?

Sorry my friend, your message will be lost on these boards due to the lower average age.

While your logic is flawless, this is just not what people want sadly.

Great post 10/10 would read again.

> Awesome post

Do not dumb this down.

As a game developer I agree 100% with this post. There is more to it than what Maximus has described here, but a great over view and a great debunking.

Well done!

TLDR for you non academics;

Randomness does not deteriorate skill. Instead it makes players focus on a new skill set, and re-arranges what skills are more important. Ultimately randomness allows bad players to do better, but allow good players to truly shine. More players are moved to the middle of the pack, and the real question becomes how do we sort the players?

Seriously though, read the entire thing. Dictionaries exist for a reason.

I understood this perfectly. I don’t agree or disagree. While I don’t like lots of randomness I understand some is essential to keep the game fun, rather than the same thing again and again and again.

> > Awesome post
>
> Do not dumb this down.
>
> As a game developer I agree 100% with this post. There is more to it than what Maximus has described here, but a great over view and a great debunking.
>
> Well done!
>
> TLDR for you non academics;
>
> Randomness does not deteriorate skill. Instead it makes players focus on a new skill set, and re-arranges what skills are more important. Ultimately randomness allows bad players to do better, but allow good players to truly shine. More players are moved to the middle of the pack, and the real question becomes how do we sort the players?
>
> Seriously though, read the entire thing. Dictionaries exist for a reason.

The problem that the community has, is that some of them (including me) do not like the change in direction and the change of what “Halo” is.

I am not saying that 343 shouldn’t be allowed to change direction. HOWEVER, what I am saying, is that 343 should accommodate players that did not wish for change (Split playlists), just down to the fact that the first 3 Halo games set such an unprecedented revolution in FPS gaming.

They don’t have to, but if they want to regain numbers (we’ve all seen the charts and GDC thread) they will have to recognise that some people just don’t want change.

If they are happy completely changing the game, that’s fine, just don’t expect the game to grow again.

Once again, great post OP.

> The problem that the community has, is that some of them (including me) do not like the change in direction and the change of what “Halo” is.
>
> I am not saying that 343 shouldn’t be allowed to change direction. HOWEVER, what I am saying, is that 343 should accommodate players that did not wish for change (Split playlists), just down to the fact that the first 3 Halo games set such an unprecedented revolution in FPS gaming.
>
> They don’t have to, but if they want to regain numbers (we’ve all seen the charts and GDC thread) they will have to recognise that some people just don’t want change.
>
> If they are happy completely changing the game, that’s fine, just don’t expect the game to grow again.
>
> Once again, great post OP.

Huh? This is totally off topic. Maxius simply was debucking the popular idea of randomness =/= skill. He said nothing about the direction of Halo. Simply the correlation between randomness and skill.

> Great post 10/10 would read again.

^ This, finally some well thought out and interesting read on this forums, thanks OP.

They go hand in hand. The ability to deal with random actually shows higher skill. Rather than a muscle memory, randomness keeps players honest, so they cant memorize power weapon location, spawn points, and/or motivation to betray for power weapons. I feel that PODs drew the anger of fans who could no longer exploit the spawn system.

Lets face it, no matter who you are, it sucks to be spawn killed. That is “fun” for no one that its happening to.

Thank you for this – thread added to favorites. I hope to revisit it again and increase my understanding. googling the definition of stochastic is the first step :slight_smile:

> > The problem that the community has, is that some of them (including me) do not like the change in direction and the change of what “Halo” is.
> >
> > I am not saying that 343 shouldn’t be allowed to change direction. HOWEVER, what I am saying, is that 343 should accommodate players that did not wish for change (Split playlists), just down to the fact that the first 3 Halo games set such an unprecedented revolution in FPS gaming.
> >
> > They don’t have to, but if they want to regain numbers (we’ve all seen the charts and GDC thread) they will have to recognise that some people just don’t want change.
> >
> > If they are happy completely changing the game, that’s fine, just don’t expect the game to grow again.
> >
> > Once again, great post OP.
>
> Huh? This is totally off topic. Maxius simply was debunking the popular idea of randomness =/= skill. He said nothing about the direction of Halo. Simply the correlation between randomness and skill.

Apologies for being off topic. Please don’t ban me.

You’re absolutely right with blackjack being completely random during dealing, and while the odds of success can change, this success comes from both the house and the player decisions. In Halo’s ordnance system, the way the three weapons/power ups are picked is completely random and independent of the previous ordnance, basically akin to only the initial deal in blackjack. You can’t change the odds of success on what you want to get, because it happens in that instant.

So in essence, it more comparable to a game of blackjack where the winner is decided based on the initial deal.

> They go hand in hand. The ability to deal with random actually shows higher skill. Rather than a muscle memory, randomness keeps players honest, so they cant memorize power weapon location, spawn points, and/or motivation to betray for power weapons. I feel that PODs drew the anger of fans who could no longer exploit the spawn system.
>
> Lets face, no matter who you are, it sucks to be spawn killed. That is “fun” for no one that its happening to.

On the flipside, random features remove a sense of learning and fairness. You are right to say that being able to persevere in the face of randomness does show talent and skill, yet everybody is not the same. If I were to give out a test to a history class and half of them were given a history test while the other half were given a test on advanced particle physics, would that be fair? After all it does show talent if some kids with the physics test managed to pass it, but to the other students who studied for a history test and don’t know the first thing about particle physics, it isn’t.

In the same way, those who devoted time to learn the maps and learn the weapon spawns are pretty much thrown under the bus now that weapons can spawn randomly anywhere. So now instead of forming strategies, all they have to do is run around the map wildly hoping something powerful spawns near them or comes in their ordinance.

> If one defines “skill” as all abilities that increase expected value, then the random element increased the skill necessary for mastery.

I think that’s a pretty good tl;dr. Thanks a lot for this post, as it explains and articulates concepts I’ve been struggling to vocalize (even to myself) why I believe the added random elements improve my enjoyment of the game, but does so far better and more eloquently than I could possibly do. Kudos my friend.

I don’t think Vengful’s point was necessarily off topic either; just kind of expanding the discussion. It’s not hard to recognize the relevance of the OP to the ongoing discussion on these forums(actually, it’s pretty rare for a discussion to occur, more just people on either side reiterating their stance over and over again) of whether adding AAs, loadouts, and ordinance is good or bad for multiplayer gameplay, and by extension, the series as a whole. People who favor a traditional playstyle simply define skill primarily as movement/gun control and memorizing static weapon timers/locations. On the other hand, those who prefer the infinity gameplay style define skill as being able to incorporate all the added elements into one’s strategy from both an offensive and defense perspective, and being able to adapt to the variety of new situations that arise due to incorporation of the infinity elements.

Defining skill – actually, in this context its more defining what makes the game enjoyable for a given player – is really a matter of personal preference, and neither side is necessarily right. Unfortunately, I agree that the OP will probably go far over the heads of a lot of forum users, but it makes an excellent point.

Thanks again for the post.

You are OVER THINKING IT.

In Halo 3: I can use my coordinated team , shoot you five times and take a rocket launcher along with map control.

In Halo 4: You can spawn in and know where the rocket launcher even is and guess what, it can even randomly spawn on your side of the map.

It takes more skill to play Halo 3. It’s that simple.

For this to even be a debate means that the people talking about it are bad at the game.

A more skilled team will always beat a team of randoms in any Halo. The only problem with the random element in Halo 4 is that it will allow one team to beat another if the two teams are of similar if not equal skill. If the score is 49 to 49 on Haven and neither team has map control and a binary rifle randomly drops on blue street: blue team will win the game.

> > They go hand in hand. The ability to deal with random actually shows higher skill. Rather than a muscle memory, randomness keeps players honest, so they cant memorize power weapon location, spawn points, and/or motivation to betray for power weapons. I feel that PODs drew the anger of fans who could no longer exploit the spawn system.
> >
> > Lets face, no matter who you are, it sucks to be spawn killed. That is “fun” for no one that its happening to.
>
> On the flipside, random features remove a sense of learning and fairness. You are right to say that being able to persevere in the face of randomness does show talent and skill, yet everybody is not the same. If I were to give out a test to a history class and half of them were given a history test while the other half were given a test on advanced particle physics, would that be fair? After all it does show talent if some kids with the physics test managed to pass it, but to the other students who studied for a history test and don’t know the first thing about particle physics, it isn’t.
>
> In the same way, those who devoted time to learn the maps and learn the weapon spawns are pretty much thrown under the bus now that weapons can spawn randomly anywhere. So now instead of forming strategies, all they have to do is run around the map wildly hoping something powerful spawns near them or comes in their ordinance.

Yes, unfortunately this is where we are now. Let’s go back to the reach forum, 1 year and 6 months ago. I recall the most complained about topics were:

Camping for Power Weapons.
Spawn Killing
Bloom

POD’s give players the opportunity to break the spawn trap, gives players opportunity to continue to move around the map without having to camp.

Granted a good team, will kill you for your POD and then spawn kill you anyways, but the option is there if you and your team coordinated to prevent it from happening. The req package allows you to change the POD options, random, I know but it is what it is. Personally, I am neutral on the matter, I can play with them or without, it doesnt break the game for me.

WRONG

Sure there’s skill to adjusting to it, but honestly the ability to adapt on the fly, and make decisions and adjust and react to what your opponent is doing, what the other teams strategy is, or the changing demands of a game’s situation have always been a skill in Halo. A very important one I might add.

The strength of someone’s ability to manage their reaction and adaptation to what happens in a game, or what the opposing player is doing, or might do, directly correlates to how good they will be at adjusting to randomized elements in encounters, if it is not in-fact the same exact ability.

The only thing it does, is annoy people who are good at this to begin with.

And frankly, in a game of pure skill you have to adapt to what the situation is, but atleast your opponent has forced that onto you, you shouldn’t have to adapt to being surprised around a corner by someone who had a fuel rod cannon dropped in their lap.

This is not a good adaptation to require of people who play Halo well. And frankly, I don’t think you can differentiate between the “skill set” required by the randomness-demanded adjustment and non-random-demanded adjustment.

Your argument is flawed in application to this game, and I think if you consider this post at all you should see that.

If you’re playing chess, sure there is still a lot of skill if randomly every once in a while a couple of the pieces change what they are…but how many grandmasters do you think want to play that type of chess… how many amateurs for that matter would want the game to work that way?

Lets say Anand’s rooks turn into bishops out of nowhere…do you think that somehow he’s going to be less capable of adjusting to that change than some amateur? Or suddenly, the amateur would do better than a grandmaster in dealing with the change of his pieces…

Or how about the randomness to multi-person in a room armor-locking in and out, or the outright DMR randomness in Reach?

In H4…not knowing what a person is capable of, just guessing and hoping you didn’t pick something like paper to scissors…Those are not good for a game. Any game.