Random Ordinance isn't fair.

Games Other Halo
23

> > > Why in the hell are the location ordinance drops all POWER WEAPONS that nobody earned or deserves. If you earn it through PERSONAL ordinance, that’s fine, but why are the random ones power weapons? At least make them ammo for loadout weapons for god’s sake.
> >
> > How would you account for the various loadout weapons, then? As it stands I think the location ordinance drops are rare enough to mitigate any severe unfairness. Plus I’m much more likely to see grenade drops than anything else.
>
> I have to disagree. Loadout weapons are not power weapons, so I think I need clarification on your point there. And rarity of drops <mark>to me</mark> doesn’t matter because the fact that a team gets a binary rifle or incineration cannon just because the game says so is <mark>to me</mark> not fair. Weapons should be placed on the map where teams must fight for them.

Sorry, to clarify I was referring to the request to make location drops ammo for loadout weapons. To which I was asking how you account for all the various loadout choices. That’s a lot of ammo to go around and doesn’t help players with plasma pistols or the storm rifle.

As for what “should” happen in a game, it’s clear everyone has different opinions, all validated by the word “should.” What’s bizarre is no one seems to care for what the game developers thinks “should” be in a game.

I’m not knocking opinions here, they’re just as valid as mine. I’m just saying I personally don’t have a problem with the current setup. Sometimes I get killed by heavy weapons, sometimes I do the killing. I believe if given a large enough sample size, the better player will win the majority of unbalanced engagements. Besides, there’s no better feeling than taking down an incineration cannon wielding opponent with a suppressor : )

24

> Ordnance guys, not ordinance.
> OT: I like it’s randomness. It suits me fine, because it regularly gives SAWs’ and needlers. Rarely do I ever get a power weapon, and when I do, there is usually a betrayer or an unlucky sniper killing me, then taking my fuel rod.
> If ordnance is here to stay, then the random factor should as well. If they pre-set the reward, then CoD takeover would be complete.
> If there was to be a tier system, let it not reset after a death. Let it drop 5 points, perhaps, or none at all.

I think a tier system would be an interesting evolution of the current setup. Earn your way up to the heavier weapons… I like it. And the system of credits and debits is well and good, but I agree a complete reset makes it too rare. By that logic only the players with Running Riots would get the good stuff, and then a ramage isn’t far behind since clearly the opposition isn’t very good.

25

> > Ordnance guys, not ordinance.
> > OT: I like it’s randomness. It suits me fine, because it regularly gives SAWs’ and needlers. Rarely do I ever get a power weapon, and when I do, there is usually a betrayer or an unlucky sniper killing me, then taking my fuel rod.
> > If ordnance is here to stay, then the random factor should as well. If they pre-set the reward, then CoD takeover would be complete.
> > If there was to be a tier system, let it not reset after a death. Let it drop 5 points, perhaps, or none at all.
>
> I think a tier system would be an interesting evolution of the current setup. Earn your way up to the heavier weapons… I like it. And the system of credits and debits is well and good, but I agree a complete reset makes it too rare. By that logic only the players with Running Riots would get the good stuff, and then a ramage isn’t far behind since clearly the opposition isn’t very good.

You and I have interpreted the tiered ordnace idea differently. What I thought people were suggesting was progressively better ordnance. If you earn you first ordnace then die, your second ordnance would still be better. I don’t think anyone was saying you’d need to hit teir 3 in 1 life.

26

Edited by Moderator - Please do not post inappropriate comments.

*Original post, click at your own discretion.

title made me lol

RANDOM ISN’T FAIR

no kidding? Welcome to Obama’s America.

27

> > > > Why in the hell are the location ordinance drops all POWER WEAPONS that nobody earned or deserves. If you earn it through PERSONAL ordinance, that’s fine, but why are the random ones power weapons? At least make them ammo for loadout weapons for god’s sake.
> > >
> > > How would you account for the various loadout weapons, then? As it stands I think the location ordinance drops are rare enough to mitigate any severe unfairness. Plus I’m much more likely to see grenade drops than anything else.
> >
> > I have to disagree. Loadout weapons are not power weapons, so I think I need clarification on your point there. And rarity of drops <mark>to me</mark> doesn’t matter because the fact that a team gets a binary rifle or incineration cannon just because the game says so is <mark>to me</mark> not fair. Weapons should be placed on the map where teams must fight for them.
>
> Sorry, to clarify I was referring to the request to make location drops ammo for loadout weapons. To which I was asking how you account for all the various loadout choices. That’s a lot of ammo to go around and doesn’t help players with plasma pistols or the storm rifle.
>
> As for what “should” happen in a game, it’s clear everyone has different opinions, all validated by the word “should.” What’s bizarre is no one seems to care for what the game developers thinks “should” be in a game.
>
> I’m not knocking opinions here, they’re just as valid as mine. I’m just saying I personally don’t have a problem with the current setup. Sometimes I get killed by heavy weapons, sometimes I do the killing. I believe if given a large enough sample size, the better player will win the majority of unbalanced engagements. Besides, there’s no better feeling than taking down an incineration cannon wielding opponent with a suppressor : )

Oh OK I see. Thanks for the clarification. That’s a good point you make about the ammo.

Also, I agree that the word “should” is very subjective, and each persons opinion should be heard. Yet I think that if we look at the trend of where Halo has been and where Halo is now, it could be said with confidence that the way Halo is now does not appeal to the majority of Halo players. It was a good experiment, but it clearly did not work for the majority of Halo players, as the game went away from it’s core gameplay model and consequently drove most of the players away, evidenced by the ever popular HaloCharts graph.

And yes what the developers think “should” be in a game is important, but if the developer’s vision for the game is not in line with what the game “is,” shouldn’t the fans and players complain? What if COD Ghosts decided to be more like classic Halo and removed loadouts and killstreaks from the game?

As to the random ordnance issue, I just don’t feel that it’s fair to everyone. It doesn’t reward players according to any measurable metric. To me it takes another part of the skill aspect out of Halo. That would be like the NBA giving random free throws to each team a few times during a game (in addition to the free throws for fouls of course). If those free throws happen to be given late in a close game, that doesn’t seem fair to me.

28

At least in Halo Reach in regards to Invasion the ordnance was on a regular timer and was always the same. So both teams knew what they were fighting over and you felt a sense of achievement when preventing the other team getting their ordnance, oh and it was fun.

However in Halo 4 you don’t feel a sense of achievement when you get a freebie sniper and the other team gets a speed boost. I’m the type of player that enjoys playing against other players on an even footing.

29

I think you all ought to distinguish between “fairness” in a particular game vs. fairness over a series of games. If by fair you mean that everyone has an equal opportunity to acquire a particular weapon then random ordnance is fair across a series of games since, on average, everyone will end up w/ the same set of random drops. While you may not get as good of a weapon in any one game as your opponents, in the next game, or the one after that, the tables will turn. On average things will even out over time.

That’s not to say that that mechanism is enjoyable, or desirable, but it is fair in the sense that everyone is playing by the same set of rules and probabilities. I don’t like personal ordnance, not because it isn’t fair, but because it isn’t fun. It converts the meta of the game from one of map control and teamwork to get power weapons into a game of run and gun to fill up an ordnance meter. Filling up the ordnance meter is based on random scoring (i.e., you get more points for killing someone who is running or reloading than a simple kill). Of course, the randomness of the scoring evens out over time as well, but again I simply don’t like the meta created by the scoring mechanism because it incentivises careless game play that is at odds, in slayer modes, with winning the game.

30

Why Ordnance Drops Make No Sense in Halo.

In Halo 4 there are two basic scenarios for engaging in combat: War Games and SPARTAN Ops. War Games all take place in a simulator aboard Infinity and are supposedly for training purposes. SPARTAN Ops is supposedly the “real thing” where you are engaging in “actual” combat against “real” enemies.

So, when you are engaging in a “training exercise” you start with your loadout weapons and, usually, within a few minutes you “earn” a Personal Ordnance drop. You will likely get a power weapon, and using it will almost guarantee you will get more. So, what you “learn” in “training” is that you only need minimal knowledge of your loadout weapons because you can pretty much depend on getting a power weapon that requires way less skill to use. Also, this plethora of power weapons make all AA’s, Tactical and Support packages virtually useless, and the only point to Specialization is which name will eventually appear on your player card.

Now SPARTAN Ops, on the other hand, seems like a good fit for Personal Ordnance, yet instead what happens is that you get random ordnance dropped amongst the enemy and good luck getting your hands on it. This is actually better, in my opinion, because it forces you to depend on your loadout weapons more.

Two things that separated Halo from other shooters early on was that you had limited ammo and could only carry two weapons and a couple grenades. A lot of the “fun”, if you will, was trying to make it with what you had on you, and being skilled (or lucky) enough to get your hands on a power weapon. You were never just given a power weapon.

It’s all just backwards. What’s the point of being a SPARTAN if you can only fight with power weapons. A SPARTAN is supposed to BE a power weapon. A magnum in the hands of a SPARTAN was supposed to be bad news for the enemy. Now it’s just something you’re “stuck with” until you get your Incineration Cannon.

Random Ordnance belongs in Action Sack
Personal Ordnance belongs in Dominion/SPARTAN Ops

Halo needs its military bearing back.

31

Random Ordnance, Personal Ordnance, and weapon drops showing up on HUD completely sealed the skill gap… With a soldering Iron…

Not only do the people who have constantly DMR camped throughout the game get their brand new Beam Rifle, but now it ruins ALL map strategy.

Why would you need to use any intelligence when you are rewarded a gravity hammer after camping with an energy sword.

Halo used to need strategy and teamwork to win a game, you needed to plan your steps in the heat of battle and you needed to THINK, now all you have to do is sit back, relax, and let the DMR aim for you. Then, enjoy your instant-kill Binary Rifle.

There is not need for showing where the energy sword is on your HUD, you need to know the map you’re playing on and you need to form a plan to obtain it. Now with every little power weapon being highlighted for the ten year olds that constantly ruin the game for those who have skill, all ways to improve your ability to think in the heat of battle are destroyed.

With random ordnance, when one is running through the battle field eating the other team with a DMR, an Incendiary Cannon suddenly drops in front of them, then a damage boost falls seconds later. Why is that unnecessary?

Halo needs static weapon spawns, NO PERSONAL ORDNANCE, if there is going to be random ordnance, it CANNOT be power weapons, it should be loadout weapons.

32

It was unfortunately designed for that group of players who’d whinge because they could never get to that power weapon located on the middle map - despite it being their own fault.

Personal ordnance results in random elements controlled by an algorithm within the game. Players can’t control what they can get, thus it takes advantages away from those players who’d take the time to learn such an aspect of the game.

33

> Ordinance isn’t a fair concept, random or personal. Anything that amounts to a dice roll cannot be fair.

The idea of personal ordinance isn’t inherently flawed, it could work passably if its random element were removed and the things you could call in didn’t supplant map-spawned power weapons.

34

> <mark>It was unfortunately designed for that group of players who’d whinge because they could never get to that power weapon</mark> located on the middle map - despite it being their own fault.
>
> Personal ordnance results in random elements controlled by an algorithm within the game. Players can’t control what they can get, thus it takes advantages away from those players who’d take the time to learn such an aspect of the game.

They can always get better. they tried to attract other players and the only thing they did was divide and separate those who already played Halo and liked the game as it was.

35

I agree that ordnance drops ruin map control and gameplay. Some of my most fun moments even in Halo Reach were rushing to an area and having a 1v1 or 2v2 or more, fight over a rocket launcher. Once you won that fight, it felt much better than getting ordnance. If you lost, you realized why you did and what you did wrong.

IF ordnance drops need to be in a game, or in Halo 5, it should only have two options, ammo or grenades.

36

> They can always get better. they tried to attract other players and the only thing they did was divide and separate those who already played Halo and liked the game as it was.

Which begs the question: What was wrong with the hundreds of thousands of players that enjoyed Halo 3? What made 343i think those players would enjoy a “more accessible” Halo?

37

> I agree that ordnance drops ruin map control and gameplay. Some of my most fun moments even in Halo Reach were rushing to an area and having a 1v1 or 2v2 or more, fight over a rocket launcher. Once you won that fight, it felt much better than getting ordnance. If you lost, you realized why you did and what you did wrong.
>
> IF ordnance drops need to be in a game, or in Halo 5, it should only have two options, ammo or grenades.

I couldn’t agree more.

38

> > the timing is random but the location is not. good teams control areas where weapons ordnance in for as long as possible and are rewarded for it.
>
> Wrong, the chosen location is also random.
>
> Check Haven, Exile and so on and you’ll find plenty of random weapon drops laying around.
>
> At a random time a location is chosen randomly, I can hold one side on Haven to get the Binary, Inc cannon or the Sword, whichever spawns, but it may take the whole match before something spawns, if it spawns at all.

How is the location random when there is clearly a drop point that is placed down? You can see the drop points when you load up Forge and if you Forge maps, you would also know this.

There are initial drops that can be set to a timer to be resupplied if so desired and there is a random drop point in which you place. the only thing random about the random drops is the time in which they drop onto the map. The location though, is a fixed spot.

39

> I agree that ordnance drops ruin map control and gameplay. Some of my most fun moments even in Halo Reach were rushing to an area and having a 1v1 or 2v2 or more, fight over a rocket launcher. Once you won that fight, it felt much better than getting ordnance. If you lost, you realized why you did and what you did wrong.
>
> IF ordnance drops need to be in a game, or in Halo 5, it should only have two options, ammo or grenades.

You know I never thought I would say this, but you are right. If ordnance has to be in the next game this is the best way to go about it.

40

> IF ordnance drops need to be in a game, or in Halo 5, it should only have two options, ammo or grenades.

Please oh please put in ammo drops. Too many times I run out of ammo for my LR.

Grenades would be nice, too . . . also, I really dislike the resupply perk because it removed the ability to pick up grenades without it.

41

> > > the timing is random but the location is not. good teams control areas where weapons ordnance in for as long as possible and are rewarded for it.
> >
> > Wrong, the chosen location is also random.
> >
> > Check Haven, Exile and so on and you’ll find plenty of random weapon drops laying around.
> >
> > At a random time a location is chosen randomly, I can hold one side on Haven to get the Binary, Inc cannon or the Sword, whichever spawns, but it may take the whole match before something spawns, if it spawns at all.
>
> <mark>How is the location random when there is clearly a drop point that is placed down?</mark> You can see the drop points when you load up Forge and if you Forge maps, you would also know this.
>
> There are initial drops that can be set to a timer to be resupplied if so desired and there is a random drop point in which you place. the only thing random about the random drops is the time in which they drop onto the map. The location though, is a fixed spot.

I’ve spent my fair share in forge so I know the drop locations.

I also know about the initial drops, but they aren’t random.

See, there are many many drop locations on every map, you’re correct that the locations in themselves aren’t random, but which location is chosen by the game is indeed random.

Load up Haven and you’ll find several locations with the combination “Sticky Detonator/Needler/Scattershot” weapons on the bottom floor, several of them are next to each other as well. Many locations only have one weapon, but that’s beside the point.

If you have 10 locations on the map that are for “random drop”, the game choose some of these locations to drop a weapon that is set for the location. Binary on blue side on Ragnarok may drop at the five minute mark, or ten minute mark, or not at all, I’ve experienced many drop times. It always drop at the same time, but the location chosen is indeed random.

To clarify, out of 10 locations, a couple of them are chosen randomly. This is the “random location” I’m refering to.

The time is random, the location chosen is random, and thus, the weapon spawned is random.

42

> > > > the timing is random but the location is not. good teams control areas where weapons ordnance in for as long as possible and are rewarded for it.
> > >
> > > Wrong, the chosen location is also random.
> > >
> > > Check Haven, Exile and so on and you’ll find plenty of random weapon drops laying around.
> > >
> > > At a random time a location is chosen randomly, I can hold one side on Haven to get the Binary, Inc cannon or the Sword, whichever spawns, but it may take the whole match before something spawns, if it spawns at all.
> >
> > <mark>How is the location random when there is clearly a drop point that is placed down?</mark> You can see the drop points when you load up Forge and if you Forge maps, you would also know this.
> >
> > There are initial drops that can be set to a timer to be resupplied if so desired and there is a random drop point in which you place. the only thing random about the random drops is the time in which they drop onto the map. The location though, is a fixed spot.
>
> I’ve spent my fair share in forge so I know the drop locations.
>
> I also know about the initial drops, but they aren’t random.
>
> See, there are many many drop locations on every map, you’re correct that the locations in themselves aren’t random, but which location is chosen by the game is indeed random.
>
> Load up Haven and you’ll find several locations with the combination “Sticky Detonator/Needler/Scattershot” weapons on the bottom floor, several of them are next to each other as well. Many locations only have one weapon, but that’s beside the point.
>
> If you have 10 locations on the map that are for “random drop”, the game choose some of these locations to drop a weapon that is set for the location. Binary on blue side on Ragnarok may drop at the five minute mark, or ten minute mark, or not at all, I’ve experienced many drop times. It always drop at the same time, but the location chosen is indeed random.
>
> To clarify, out of 10 locations, a couple of them are chosen randomly. This is the “random location” I’m refering to.
>
> The time is random, the location chosen is random, and thus, the weapon spawned is random.

Even, if you have a particular drop point set to a specific weapon?

Because take for example Ragnarok. The spartan Laser that drops down at the bottom of the center hill on the Blue base (I think it’s blue) is a random drop point and it drops that spartan laser there every time; the only thing that’s random about it is time in which it drops.