Quick conversation on the 5sk BR

Games Other Halo
1

While the 5sk BR is not confirmed yet, merely tested, I do think there is something worth mentioning about it that people seem to be overlooking, and that is weapon balance. If the DMR is also a 5sk, and it shoots faster with more accuracy than the BR, shouldn’t the BR kill faster to compensate for the slower RoF and lower accuracy? It just seems to make much more sense from a balance perspective.

Before I get any flame responses about this, do note that his review of his playtest, Killa KC said that the DMR is much better than the BR.

2

The DMR shoots faster than the new BR? Then yes I agree.

Also, the BR has 12 shots per mag, which isn’t enough when it is a 5 shot kill (ex: Reach beta DMR was 12 rounds, which wasn’t enough). BR should be returned to 4shot.

3

> <mark>The DMR shoots faster than the new BR?</mark> Then yes I agree.
>
> Also, the BR has 12 shots per mag, which isn’t enough when it is a 5 shot kill (ex: Reach beta DMR was 12 rounds, which wasn’t enough). BR should be returned to 4shot.

Yes, it shoots slower than the Reach DMR, but still faster than the BR.

4

remember weapons are still being tweaked so we may see our 4sk BR again, but in general I do believe in what you’re saying. The DMR should shoot faster and have a higher accuracy while the BR kills faster

5

> While the 5sk BR is not confirmed yet, merely tested, I do think there is something worth mentioning about it that people seem to be overlooking, and that is weapon balance. If the DMR is also a 5sk, and it shoots faster with more accuracy than the BR, shouldn’t the BR kill faster to compensate for the slower RoF and lower accuracy? It just seems to make much more sense from a balance perspective.
>
> Before I get any flame responses about this, do note that his review of his playtest, Killa KC said that the DMR is much better than the BR.

That’s how he felt about the two guns. It’s only natural he liked the DMR more because of Reach and the familiarity with it.

KC said both guns (despite his preference for DMR) were both solid and accurate. He just preferred the DMR. He never really said the BR was garbage and outclassed by DMR. I just thought i clear that up.

Everyone is asking for 4sk but from the looks of it do we really need that if bleedthrough is included? If it’s returning i mean, the BR becomes 3sk and that’s god tier pistol status right there.

From what i’ve seen, the BR fired and kill pretty fast to me and it looked like Halo. However, looking and getting a feel for the game are two different things. Especially since we’ve seen what? 30 seconds worth of footage of Wraparound?

It’s doesn’t leave much room to get an good idea about the game :confused:

6

If the DMR shoots faster than the BR it shoots pretty damn fast then, cause in the videos we’ve seen the BR isn’t all that slow. So I want to see it.

But I was thinking could they do a damage percentage based on distance? For example for the DMR, BR and AR to have 100% of their power they would have to used in their optimum ranges of long, mid, and short. So a DMR would be a 5 shot at long range but a 6 mid and 7 close, but a BR would be 5 mid, 6 long and 7 close. As for the AR make it weaker over distance, as a result double the clip size from 32 to 64 in case of mid-long range battles.

Edit: I’m asking this to see if people find this a possible way to balance guns. I’m fine with the DMR and BR being five shot let skill and people’s ability to suppress the guns deficiencies sort things out.

7

> > While the 5sk BR is not confirmed yet, merely tested, I do think there is something worth mentioning about it that people seem to be overlooking, and that is weapon balance. If the DMR is also a 5sk, and it shoots faster with more accuracy than the BR, shouldn’t the BR kill faster to compensate for the slower RoF and lower accuracy? It just seems to make much more sense from a balance perspective.
> >
> > Before I get any flame responses about this, do note that his review of his playtest, Killa KC said that the DMR is much better than the BR.
>
> That’s how he felt about the two guns. It’s only natural he liked the DMR more because of Reach and the familiarity with it.
>
> KC said both guns (despite his preference for DMR) were both solid and accurate. He just preferred the DMR. He never really said the BR was garbage and outclassed by DMR. I just thought i clear that up.
>
>
> Everyone is asking for 4sk but from the looks of it do we really need that if bleedthrough is included? If it’s returning i mean, the BR becomes 3sk and that’s god tier pistol status right there.
>
> From what i’ve seen, the BR fired and kill pretty fast to me and it looked like Halo. However, looking and getting a feel for the game are two different things. Especially since we’ve seen what? 30 seconds worth of footage of Wraparound?
>
> It’s not enough to go off me thinks :confused:

  1. I believe Gandhi said in last weeks HaloCouncil that when he talked to KC in person, KC told him the DMR was much better. Don’t look too much into this, because there are many factors surrounding it (skill level, missed shots, etc.)

  2. The BR was always a 4sk bleedthrough, in both H2 and H3

It is really not too big of a deal if it comes down to preference, I just want the guns to be as balanced as possible.

8

> > > While the 5sk BR is not confirmed yet, merely tested, I do think there is something worth mentioning about it that people seem to be overlooking, and that is weapon balance. If the DMR is also a 5sk, and it shoots faster with more accuracy than the BR, shouldn’t the BR kill faster to compensate for the slower RoF and lower accuracy? It just seems to make much more sense from a balance perspective.
> > >
> > > Before I get any flame responses about this, do note that his review of his playtest, Killa KC said that the DMR is much better than the BR.
> >
> > That’s how he felt about the two guns. It’s only natural he liked the DMR more because of Reach and the familiarity with it.
> >
> > KC said both guns (despite his preference for DMR) were both solid and accurate. He just preferred the DMR. He never really said the BR was garbage and outclassed by DMR. I just thought i clear that up.
> >
> >
> > Everyone is asking for 4sk but from the looks of it do we really need that if bleedthrough is included? If it’s returning i mean, the BR becomes 3sk and that’s god tier pistol status right there.
> >
> > From what i’ve seen, the BR fired and kill pretty fast to me and it looked like Halo. However, looking and getting a feel for the game are two different things. Especially since we’ve seen what? 30 seconds worth of footage of Wraparound?
> >
> > It’s not enough to go off me thinks :confused:
>
> 1. I believe Gandhi said in last weeks HaloCouncil that when he talked to KC in person, KC told him the DMR was much better. Don’t look too much into this, because there are many factors surrounding it (skill level, missed shots, etc.)
>
> 2. The BR was always a 4sk bleedthrough, in both H2 and H3
>
> It is really not too big of a deal if it comes down to preference, I just want the guns to be as balanced as possible.

  1. i wasn’t aware this, i will check it out.

  2. True.

  3. Your way of balancing it is sound though could it work that since the DMR is more of a ranged weapon, it fires slower (similar to how the bloom resets on the SR in Reach) than the BR but the BR fires faster but has recoil to make it harder to use at range?

I too hope that skill becomes the deciding factor between the guns and not just “Gun A will always lose because Gun B is outside of niche”.

9

> > > > While the 5sk BR is not confirmed yet, merely tested, I do think there is something worth mentioning about it that people seem to be overlooking, and that is weapon balance. If the DMR is also a 5sk, and it shoots faster with more accuracy than the BR, shouldn’t the BR kill faster to compensate for the slower RoF and lower accuracy? It just seems to make much more sense from a balance perspective.
> > > >
> > > > Before I get any flame responses about this, do note that his review of his playtest, Killa KC said that the DMR is much better than the BR.
> > >
> > > That’s how he felt about the two guns. It’s only natural he liked the DMR more because of Reach and the familiarity with it.
> > >
> > > KC said both guns (despite his preference for DMR) were both solid and accurate. He just preferred the DMR. He never really said the BR was garbage and outclassed by DMR. I just thought i clear that up.
> > >
> > >
> > > Everyone is asking for 4sk but from the looks of it do we really need that if bleedthrough is included? If it’s returning i mean, the BR becomes 3sk and that’s god tier pistol status right there.
> > >
> > > From what i’ve seen, the BR fired and kill pretty fast to me and it looked like Halo. However, looking and getting a feel for the game are two different things. Especially since we’ve seen what? 30 seconds worth of footage of Wraparound?
> > >
> > > It’s not enough to go off me thinks :confused:
> >
> > 1. I believe Gandhi said in last weeks HaloCouncil that when he talked to KC in person, KC told him the DMR was much better. Don’t look too much into this, because there are many factors surrounding it (skill level, missed shots, etc.)
> >
> > 2. The BR was always a 4sk bleedthrough, in both H2 and H3
> >
> > It is really not too big of a deal if it comes down to preference, I just want the guns to be as balanced as possible.
>
> 1. i wasn’t aware this, i will check it out.
>
> 2. True.
>
> 3. Your way of balancing it is sound though could it work that since the DMR is more of a ranged weapon, it fires slower (similar to how the bloom resets on the SR in Reach) than the BR but the BR fires faster but has recoil to make it harder to use at range?
>
>
> <mark>I too hope that skill becomes the deciding factor between the guns and not just “Gun A will always lose because Gun B is outside of niche”.</mark>

I completely agree with that. That is the danger I see with having custom classes, as it is giving players niche weapons off spawn. That is for a different thread though.

Oh, and for the HaloCouncil episode, you might have to look through their rebroadcast on twitch, because it was a really disheveled episode and I doubt they uploaded it to YouTube.

10

in the latest podcast they said the dmr fires slower than the br. did they change it?

11

> in the latest podcast they said the dmr fires slower than the br. did they change it?

This is what Killa KC said about the DMR vs. BR:

> At the end of the night, I preferred the DMR. It shot faster than the BR, took the same amount of shots to kill, and I didn’t feel like the bloom made me miss shots all that often.

If they changed the RoF, I would not know.

12

But you have to take into consideration that the DMR will still have some bloom, and the BR wont have spread but will have recoil. Seems like the BR would be better suited at mid range.

13

> If the DMR is also a 5sk, and it shoots faster with more accuracy than the BR, shouldn’t the BR kill faster to compensate for the slower RoF and lower accuracy?

  1. You speak of a paradox.

  2. The Reach: DMR expels 5 bullets in the same time the BR can 12 bullets.

  3. We don’t know if the H4 is a 5-shot. If it is, is it a 13-shot, 14-shot or 15-shot?

  4. We know the RoF on the H4BR is seemingly faster, but the speed on the burst is definitely faster.
    That could mean that IF the H4BR is a 5-shot, then either the DMR fires faster than the RDMR, or the 15 bullets comes out slightly slower than the DMR’s 5.
    Or a combination of both so that the H4BR’s 15 bullets come out in 1.6 seconds (that would mean the DMR fires 5 bullets in say 1.2-1.4 seconds)

> 2. The BR was always a 4sk bleedthrough, in both H2 and H3

Vanilla H2 and H3: 12 bullets.
MLG H3: 11 bullets.
Dynamic spread is why it wasn’t always a 4SK.

> I too hope that skill becomes the deciding factor between the guns and not just “Gun A will always lose because Gun B is outside of niche”.

If both players are considered equal in skill and don’t use force multipliers and don’t use the map to their advantage… If 2 players are in the Octagon, then yes that is how it is likely to be.

If you mean if 2 unevenly skilled and/or positioned players meet and niche would still determine the winner, then no, that is not how it would be.

> I completely agree with that. That is the danger I see with having custom classes, as it is giving players niche weapons off spawn. That is for a different thread though.

I must ask, do you believe the PR, AR, PP, PRi and Spiker to be short ranged niched weapons?
And isn’t at least 1 of those a spawning weapon?

14

No matter how many shot it takes to kill, the fact is the BR NEEDS a faster kill time than the DMR under the circumstance that you hit with every shot of every burst (preferably with a little give-or-take).

The fact is the BR has Spread and Recoil that prevents it from dealing it’s maximum damage beyond a specific range. And that from that range is where the DMR should have the advantage.

To be honest, the BR should be a 4 shot kill with a fire rate approximately that of Halo 2, and the DMR should be almost the same as Reach, except with purely Aesthetic bloom.

In fact, I want pretty much every weapon to have either Aesthetic or Effective bloom (mainly Aesthetic for low rate of fire weapons (Sniper, Rockets, BR, DMR etc), Effective for high rate of fire (ALL Automatics, Magnum, Plasma Pistol etc).

Anyway back to my point. Obviously in a mid ranged fight the BR has an advantage, BUT that doesn’t mean the DMR doesn’t stand a chance or anything, it just means that if the player with the BR is good enough to 4sk, he is more likely to win. Obviously if he screws up the 4sk, the DMR has a chance to win with it’s 5th shot. Same with the AR vs BR at mid range. The BR should be able to outdamage the AR because of the AR’s inaccuracy. But if the BR player can’t 4, 5, or whatever shot, the AR will be able to catch up and win in capable hands.

Now if the DMR fights the AR up close it should pretty much be no contest, same for if the AR takes on the DMR at long range. But that’s just because it’s out of it’s versatile ability.

Likewise I think the Magnum can fit in as kind of a bridge between Mid and Close, like the BR bridges mid and long. So in a range fight it’s like this:

Close: AR > Magnum > BR > DMR
Close/Mid: AR = Magnum > BR > DMR
Mid: Magnum = BR > DMR = AR
Long/Mid: BR = DMR > Magnum > AR
Long: DMR > BR > Magnum > AR

And of course Covenant equivalents:

Close: PR > PP > Carbine > NR
Close/Mid: PR = PP > Carbine > NR
Mid: PP = Carbine > PR > NR
Long/Mid: Carbine = NR > PP > PR
Long: NR > Carbine > PP > PR

And voilà, without even introducing equivalents brought on by the new enemy we have 8 potential spawn weapons you can mix and match for effective diversity. And you wouldn’t really be playing rock/paper/scisors, 80% of the time since most weapons are effective at 2/5 ranges. Some interesting diverse combinations you might consider making might look like:

DMR/Magnum
BR/PR
NR/AR
Carbine/PP etc.

Some combos a noob might take, that would leave them at a disadvantage:
AR/PP
BR/NR
PR/Magnum
DMR/Carbine etc.

Since they are too similar, and can’t cover eachothers weaknesses.

15

While I, for nostalgia issues, am sad to possibly see the 4 shot go away, as long as it works while not feeling like I am hitting the other guy with foam bullets it’s fine by me.

16

Why should the dmr shoot faster than the br and the br kill faster? Doesn’t make sense.

17

Br should have a fast Rof
Dmr should have a slower Rof

18

> Br should have a fast Rof
> Dmr should have a slower Rof

Or they could just have the BR kill in the more traditional, and symbolic to Halo, 4 Shot Kill. And keep it’s lower RoF.

Makes more sense it’s RoF being lower anyway, since it fires in Bursts, where the DMR fires Semi-Automatically.

19

Br defiantly should return as a 4 shot weapon, 343 always complain about how the game wasn’t fast paced well making the br 5 shot certainly wouldn’t help that situation what so ever.

20

4sk BR, spread.
5sk DMR, perfectly accurate no bloom.

Balanced!

Dunno why you’d do it any other way.