proposal: The halo community doesn't know what it wants

Hello seventh column! I haven’t been close to the halo community/forums since back in the days of the Bungie forums, so maybe things have changed and my outlook has dated. However, after 6 years of active participation in the old Bnet, I doubt much has changed. I am here to discuss an issue that is going to be controversial yet is rarely talked about. Although it is pleasant to hear things are different nowadays, (more polite) I am still going to zip up my flame suit and attempt to have an engaging conversation with you, the halo community.

In the dawn of a new age of 343i Halo, with the impending release of Halo 4, I would like to discuss the possibility that the halo community simply doesn’t know what it wants.

I remember not too long ago when the forums were clogged with rage threads about how much halo sucked. How much it was ruined by Bungie after the gift to humanity that was the previous halo game. What will suprise many of you is that the game in question was Halo 2.

Yes, that’s right, Halo 2 in the years following its release got as much hate as Reach did. Halo 1 was amazing, and halo 2 was too slow and broken and unbalanced and catered to noobs. I believe nowadays they have been renamed “casuals.” When Halo 3 was released suddenly halo 2 was the pinnacle of multiplayer gaming, and BR spread was rated up there somewhere between the Salem witch trials and the Bubonic Plague. After Reach was released, bloom became the new BR spread and the source of the most migraines since the N64 controller. The strange thing was that many actually called for a return of the halo 3 BR spread in replacement for bloom.

Allow me to present a specific example of our community’s ability to turn around on itself. The year is 2009, the place is anywhere with an internet connection and a Bungie.net forum account. Back then, there seemed to be only one thing the community could agree on. You see, we suffered an insufferable ill during the 3 years of halo 3, as we were missing the one map that every halo player had deepest in his heart. The most iconic map in the series, and the only map to officially appear in 3/4 Halo games. I am talking, of course, about our beloved Blood Gulch. So many fantastic memories, too many in fact for the community to argue. One of the most universally demanded features for Reach was the return of blood gulch in its original (not Valhalla) form. I still remember the countless posts of joy and excitement the day that Rooster Teeth first released the video of them playing on Blood Gulch in Halo Reach.

Fast forward to 2011, and Blood Gulch is one of the most disliked maps in Reach’s sandbox. Why? Well it’s glaringly obvious, this open and plain canyon was simply not meant for the modern halo sandbox. There was no cover, there was nothing to do, vehicles were weak and useless against infantry, and it came down to a mindless game of dropping troopers in an open, plain, boring field. Yet if you would have brought this up in 2009, you would have been met with near unified disagreement.

The Halo community is amazingly passionate about its games, so passionate that sometimes we spite the forest to see the trees. Sure, a hitscan 3shot BR with no spread looks good on paper, but what will it do to the sandbox? Everyone complains that Reach is “slow paced” compared to the faster Halo 2 and 3 to help “casuals” have an easier time. Have you guys gone back and played halo 3? Three seconds of fighting per 30 seconds of walking around trying to find enemies is NOT fast paced. In Call of Duty you die in half a second, and gameplay is about as slow and boring as you can get. My friends that don’t know much about the details of game blanace all comment/complain that Reach is too fast paced compared to previous shooters. I believe that is because when you don’t know the details, you can only focus on the experience, which in reality is the most fast paced Halo we’ve had yet, where the majority of your time is spent shooting instead of walking and searching for enemies.

Now, many of you will tell me something along these lines…

> The people that said Halo 3 and Halo 2 sucked and then later said they were great didn’t just change their minds, they just hated the next game even more. People still think Halo 2 is better than Halo 3, and Halo 1 is better than both of them, just like they always did. The community DOES know what it wants! It wants faster paced Halo, and we seem to like Halo 3 more now because every Halo game is slower and slower and Halo 3 is just faster than Reach.

Well for those of you that still aren’t sold, let me show you what I believe to be the most powerful example of all. Remember when I mentioned that after halo 2, everyone complained and asked for a return to halo 1? Well back when Bungie was in charge of Reach, they introduced a new playlist: Classic. Bungie heard that many of its fans wanted to go back to the old days, so they made the Classic playlist and asked what we wanted. The result was a huge schism in the halo community and a giant argument on the Classic playlist’s thread. The community simply couldn’t decide if they wanted the settings to emulate Halo 1 or Halo 2. The community had been screaming for the old ways for so long, they forgot which old ways they really wanted, and the result was a playlist with half gametypes that resembled Halo 1 (pistol starts) and half that resembled Halo 2 (BR starts) If you would have gone back to those days after Halo 2 was launched, this wouldnt even be an argument. Halo 2 styled gameplay would have been an outrage. Yet in a few short years, the community’s mindset on Halo 2 made a complete 180, the same turnaround that is already starting to happen with Halo 3.

So based on this evidence, I present to you that the Halo community, all the way from the casuals to MLG, has been so blinded by nostalgia that it simply doesn’t know what it wants anymore, it just wants to have fun like it feels it used to.

> TL DR: If you didn’t read please don’t respond, I am attempting to have an intelligent and serious discussion with my fellow community, If you don’t want to read there are tons of other posts you can respond to in these forums.

Please discuss kindly.

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post inappropriate content.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

So based on this evidence and the incredible amount of circle-jerking that has gone on around here, I present to you that the Halo community, all the way from the casuals to MLG, has been so blinded by nostalgia that it simply doesn’t know what it wants anymore, it just wants to have fun like it feels it used to.

Now, Its time that half of you Yoinks listen to him. he has a really good point and when halo 4 comes out you will be complaining about not being like Halo reach.

its about time i see a post that is not complaining about something thats wrong with halo…I thank you MR.Z for putting this up it is very well written :slight_smile:

These are the words that I could never manage to put together, what I have been wanting to tell this community but I can never find a way how, I have tried but you Sir just did it for me and you Sir just talked some good sense to anyone thats reads it. Bottom line is that I could of not said it better myself.

OT: The Halo Reach classic playlist was ironicly the most emptiest playlist there was.

> These are the words that I could never manage to put together, what I have been wanting to tell this community but I can never find a way how, I have tried but you Sir just did it for me and you Sir just talked some good sense to anyone thats reads it. Bottom line is that I could of not said it better myself.
>
> OT: The Halo Reach classic playlist was ironicly the most emptiest playlist there was.

Wasn’t the classic playlist what the community wanted?

I would like to thank you three for taking the time to read my wall!

I thought I was alone on this subject, but it appears maybe I am not. If anyone has any rebuttal, I would love to hear it.

I know exactly what I want I want 1-50 ranking system with ranked and social playlist and I will be happy.

Great post. Maybe i misread but your post sounded like it was meant to be posted in the community forum on b.net.

> Now, Its time that half of you Yoinks listen to him. he has a really good point and when halo 4 comes out you will be complaining about not being like Halo reach.

QFT

I have been thinking this ever since Halo 4 got announced.

> Now, Its time that half of you Yoinks listen to him. he has a really good point and when halo 4 comes out you will be complaining about not being like Halo reach.

Nope not in a million years. No matter what I know Halo 4 will better than Reach even if is still worse than Halo 2, and Halo 3.

And I know what I want H3 with a better netcode, dedicated servers, new maps, and nothing to do with reach.

> Great post. Maybe i misread but your post sounded like it was meant to be posted in the community forum on b.net.

You’re not incorrect, I should have made my intentions more clear. I am attempting to address a pattern I found disturbing in the community I have most called home on the internet. The reason it is posted in the Halo 4 forum is because it is addressing how we will/should react to future Halo games based on observations of how we reacted to past Halo games, and the only future Halo game with a forum is Halo 4.

Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it.

> > These are the words that I could never manage to put together, what I have been wanting to tell this community but I can never find a way how, I have tried but you Sir just did it for me and you Sir just talked some good sense to anyone thats reads it. Bottom line is that I could of not said it better myself.
> >
> > OT: The Halo Reach classic playlist was ironicly the most emptiest playlist there was.
>
> Wasn’t the classic playlist what the community wanted?

That was the irony, it was supposed to be everything the community asked for, yet it was more barren than Foundry on the day Sandbox released.

> > > These are the words that I could never manage to put together, what I have been wanting to tell this community but I can never find a way how, I have tried but you Sir just did it for me and you Sir just talked some good sense to anyone thats reads it. Bottom line is that I could of not said it better myself.
> > >
> > > OT: The Halo Reach classic playlist was ironicly the most emptiest playlist there was.
> >
> > Wasn’t the classic playlist what the community wanted?
>
> That was the irony, it was supposed to be everything the community asked for, yet it was more barren than Foundry on the day Sandbox released.

The real Irony is that they thought that play list would produce the game play people were asking for. It was more naive than anything.

The classic playlist could not offer what the community really wanted at the time which is basically what MLG is now; A playlist that has no load outs, no starting AA’s, equipment like features on the map, and no bloom.

Reach is so different from other halo games that you really can’t compare it to the previous game with the exclusion of CE.

Ha well the Seventh Column is still on bungie.net… This isn’t the Seventh Column you were looking for.

I agree though about the lack of focus and confusion of the Halo community but when has that ever been different? Bungie.net forums have always been full of people procrastinating and freaking out and demanding this and that.

> > > > These are the words that I could never manage to put together, what I have been wanting to tell this community but I can never find a way how, I have tried but you Sir just did it for me and you Sir just talked some good sense to anyone thats reads it. Bottom line is that I could of not said it better myself.
> > > >
> > > > OT: The Halo Reach classic playlist was ironicly the most emptiest playlist there was.
> > >
> > > Wasn’t the classic playlist what the community wanted?
> >
> > That was the irony, it was supposed to be everything the community asked for, yet it was more barren than Foundry on the day Sandbox released.
>
> The real Irony is that they thought that play list would produce the game play people were asking for. It was more naive than anything.
>
> The classic playlist could not offer what the community really wanted at the time which is basically what MLG is now; A playlist that has no load outs, no starting AA’s, equipment like features on the map, and no bloom.
>
> Reach is so different from other halo games that you really can’t compare it to the previous game with the exclusion of CE.

First, the classic playlist had 3/4 of the things you say it didn’t. (equipment-like features on the map, no starting abilities, no loadouts). Second, even if it wasn’t perfect, it was MUCH closer to what people wanted than Vanilla matchmaking, so it should have had a large population of players that wanted the lesser of two evils. The sad fact is that the old ways simply aren’t as fun to modern gamers as many of our community think.

i wasn’t really a forum-dweller back in the earliest days of h2 but i’ll take your word for the initial backlash it received and i remember some h3 backlash too

the whole bit about how the release of h3 made people suddenly realize how great h2 was and the same with reach for h3 is definitely not true though

there was turbulence early on but h2 and h3 achieved their statuses of greatness well before their respective sequels even came into the picture

whereas reach deviated (aka let us down) to such a bad degree that people still haven’t gotten over it and rightfully never will

so i guess you’re correct in that there will always be initial backlash for any sequel but to compare reach’s standing in the community right now to that of the past titles pre-sequel is absolutely not right

Classic playlist had bloom.

/done.

hell will freeze over before I miss halo reach after Halo 4 is out.

I appreciate the effort you put into the post, but there were a lot of things that got plain ignored in the OP, which produced failed reasoning. First of all, the fans have never just suddenly changed their minds. The people who disliked Halo 2, still like Halo CE better. The people who disliked Halo 3, still dislike it. The people who disliked Reach, will still dislike it after Halo 4.

You see, when Halo 2 arrived, the people who disliked it so much that they couldn’t take it simply left. There was nothing left for them. A small group got over it, especially when the patch made it bearable to play and actually vaible for competitive play. At the same time, a whole new group of players found Halo with Halo 2. It being their first Halo game, they of course loved it to death.

With Halo 3, the same thing happened. Halo 3 was even worse than Halo 2, some of the people who quit with Halo 2 may have tried to come back, but as the game was even worse, they didn’t last for long. Then there were the people who got into the series with Halo 2, they disliked Halo 3 and as they had nothing else to praise, of course they praised Halo 2 and some of them left. And again, with Halo 3, a new group of fans, the Halo 3 fans, emerged. The people whose favorite Halo game is Halo 3.

Jumping to the release of Reach, we can now break this down: ~70% Halo 3 fans, ~28% Halo 2 fans, ~2% Halo CE fans. Those aren’t reall statistics of course, but something to give a picture of the structure of the community. But notice, that 100% are only the people who will eventually complain about Reach. As Halo 3 fans are the large majority, of course the majority will want Halo 3 back.

In the end, there are only very few of us who can, with certainity, rank the games to a certain order based on something. For example, when it comes to multiplayer, the skill gap is one of the common measures. Thus I can safely say: CE>2>3>Reach. And personally, I don’t want Halo CE, 2 or 3 back, no. I want a Halo game that has all the core elements of Halo gameplay intact, a large skill gap and truly innovative features that further improve the gameplay. That’s all I have ever wanted, but never have I got what I want. Because it’s a fact that the skill gap has indeed been decreasing since the release of Halo 2.

Halo 2 indeed had my favorite multiplayer, but the most competitive it hadn’t. That title belongs to Halo CE. Neither would I like any Halo to replicate it. Same applies to any player who understands the true value of competitive Halo. Most of the time people just ahve problems wording their responses. If someone says “Halo 4 should be like Halo 2”, you can very well dub it “Halo 4 should be at least as good as post-patch Halo 2”. See the difference. And if anyone ever honestly claims they want Halo 4 to be exactly like some game of the original trilogy, you may very well just ignore them. But don’t assume that we would want a game that is exactly like games of the original trilogy.

For a long time I have been saying that the only thing I want is a halo that has all the core elements of Halo gameplay intact and no gameplay mechanics that contradict the core elements. Every gameplay mechanic should only reinforce the core gameplay of the game and favor balance and depth. A statement no sane person can have anything against. There is no reason to abandon such a great formula as the Halo formula, but neither should Halo stagnate. But no addition made to gameplay should be as damaging as spread, bloom or armor abilities; but be balanced and deep.

So, while some people may not know what they want, don’t generalize that the community doesn’t know. I know very well what I want from a Halo game, and I believe there are many people who want the same thing.

> i wasn’t really a forum-dweller back in the earliest days of h2 but i’ll take your word for the initial backlash it received and i remember some h3 backlash too
>
> the whole bit about how the release of h3 made people suddenly realize how great h2 was and the same with reach for h3 is definitely not true though
>
> there was turbulence early on but h2 and h3 achieved their statuses of greatness well before their respective sequels even came into the picture
>
> whereas reach deviated (aka let us down) to such a bad degree that people still haven’t gotten over it and rightfully never will
>
> so i guess you’re correct in that there will always be initial backlash for any sequel but to compare reach’s standing in the community right now to that of the past titles pre-sequel is absolutely not right

Oh…I was here for the intial H2 backlash it was as bad if not worse than the Reach backlash but I will say it was deserved. H2 BR had horrible inconsistent spread, melees were 3-shots, dual-wielding was kinda OP, and there was ALOT more autoaim in H2 than the first one. Oh yeah, and the H2 ending was weak sauce. Its actually amazing how many times this community has rebounded from bad game mechanics like spread,bloom,and some of the AA’s yeah it has definitely been a wild train ride but most of the complaints are justified. Its not a stretch to say, that for example H2 or Reach had some drastic changes and faults that shocked the conservative fanbase.

> > > > > These are the words that I could never manage to put together, what I have been wanting to tell this community but I can never find a way how, I have tried but you Sir just did it for me and you Sir just talked some good sense to anyone thats reads it. Bottom line is that I could of not said it better myself.
> > > > >
> > > > > OT: The Halo Reach classic playlist was ironicly the most emptiest playlist there was.
> > > >
> > > > Wasn’t the classic playlist what the community wanted?
> > >
> > > That was the irony, it was supposed to be everything the community asked for, yet it was more barren than Foundry on the day Sandbox released.
> >
> > The real Irony is that they thought that play list would produce the game play people were asking for. It was more naive than anything.
> >
> > The classic playlist could not offer what the community really wanted at the time which is basically what MLG is now; A playlist that has no load outs, no starting AA’s, equipment like features on the map, and no bloom.
> >
> > Reach is so different from other halo games that you really can’t compare it to the previous game with the exclusion of CE.
>
> First, the classic playlist had 3/4 of the things you say it didn’t. (equipment-like features on the map, no starting abilities, no loadouts). Second, even if it wasn’t perfect, it was MUCH closer to what people wanted than Vanilla matchmaking, so it should have had a large population of players that wanted the lesser of two evils. The sad fact is that the old ways simply aren’t as fun to modern gamers as many of our community think.

Just because it was closer to what we wanted doesn’t mean it would play anything near what Halo 2, and halo 3 played like, and at the end of the day it was still Reach, and only offered the mechanics of reach.

The truth is that it couldn’t offer the veteran community what it wanted at its current stand point, and that no bloom feature was very crucial btw.