Proof matchmaking can’t make everyone happy

[Naqser]

@SQUiB_2154

But the redditor doesn’t want close matches. They call them ‘sweat fests’ and complains about them and every other type of matchup.

And I had to read my post three times to understand what I said, and think back what I meant.
Sorry, I did mean “didn’t want”.
I have some sort of virus infection which drains my energy to extreme levels, some energy meant for my brain goes to other bodily functions, and I still get a ridiculous 100m spring pulse after waddling five metres.

@SQUiB_2154

They are just too angry at life to realise they are the problem, not the game itself.

I think they just set some expectations, the game doesn’t meet them and their evening / play time, is somewhat ruined.
But yes, the problem is with them.

@SQUiB_2154

That’s not to say Infinte’s matchmaking is great, I think it can and should be much better but this person would still hate it no matter what.

Could probably do better with a higher population, but yeah, even at high populations the attitude problem would remain.

@CanineHippo6923

we need team based pve

Would be nice.

@Ryan_lfc_92

maybe the problem is risk vs reward. infinite does not have much of it so it reiys heavily on uncreative combat. halo needs mechanics where if you play incredibly risky, you make the game really easy. everything is too balanced which is where the feelling of sweatiness comes from i think. being creative is fun and makes you forget that your sweating.

When Infinite functions, it’s fun and I do think a lot of creativity can be had with the Abilities.
Personally I do still believe it’s an attitude issue with players.
Some can’t stand seeing a small lead or small chase in the score and will work themselves up over it regardless of how the game is made.

@SPARSTE96

Matchmaking is garbage. Yesterday i got some good games where i had 25-30 kills, today i’m matching sweats and i lost like 6 games in a row.
Then i play another match where i have 29 kills and i can finally win and start eating my lunch. Total YOINK

Not certain if serious.
I mean, you call other people “Sweats” without knowing how serious they were in your matches, right after proudly proclaiming to get 20-35 kills the day before, a score your opponents would use to say you’re the “Sweat”.

@NonToxic4026

Yep. People sometimes can’t enjoy a game that forces them to really work hard in the moment. A lot of times they just want easy wins. But how does one improve there right?

The redditor didn’t want easy wins.
I think what “people” want, is an even match where they can relax and not take the match too seriously.
An even match will allow them to do good, while they also get to “lean back” so to speak. That’s what I talked about, how their own attitude gets in their way of getting what they want.
If they didn’t “sweat”, their Skill Value wouldn’t be so high and they could relax, or something along those lines.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

@Naqser

When Infinite functions, it’s fun and I do think a lot of creativity can be had with the Abilities.
Personally I do still believe it’s an attitude issue with players.
Some can’t stand seeing a small lead or small chase in the score and will work themselves up over it regardless of how the game is made.

i think its a fun issue, if people were really having fun they would be less stressed about the score but there will always be some stress. When i lose a game i feel like i achieved very little. Even things like multi kills are harder than classic halo’s. I’m sure the game is lot more fun and creative for skilled players who work as team but for the average player especially solo players, the main thing thats interesting is the end result which makes people get too disappointed when they lose.

[SPARSTE96]

@Naqser

Not certain if serious.
I mean, you call other people “Sweats” without knowing how serious they were in your matches, right after proudly proclaiming to get 20-35 kills the day before, a score your opponents would use to say you’re the “Sweat”.

Completely serious, if you think that i deserve to lose 6 games in a row and be frustrated just because i managed to get high kills a few games before, i don’t know what to tell you.

I’m simply not gonna play when i can play other games and not have this garbage experience where a streaks of good matches HAS TO be followed by a series of bad matches

[DERK_91]

We really need some kind of laughing emote reaction because that was so stupid it was hilarious.

[Darwi]

@SPARSTE96

this garbage experience where a streaks of good matches HAS TO be followed by a series of bad matches

This mindset is only going to set you up for disappointment.

It’s not a case of good matches being followed by bad matches. It’s just a balance over time.

Unfortunately the scattered population creates wider gaps in skill than what we want. So games can blow out (in either direction). And in that scope, yes MM isn’t making everyone happy.

But if you define fun as an easy win with 30+ kills… then you have to take your turn being on the other side and letting someone else have their turn.

[kasonac2012]

So the “sole” reason is actually three reasons? i also don’t like easy, sweaty, close, blowout, hard, mediocre,bad, fun, normal games and don’t get me started on getting paired with good, bad, or normal partners.

[Lanky_B_YT]

@General_Fox

@SPARSTE96

Have you considered that not everybody cares about improving?

That’ll generally just have you get left behind unfortunately as time passes. Get stuck playing others who became better players more frequently as they grow themselves.

Unfortunately, this is untrue. If you improve at the game, you’ll be put against more difficult opponents. If you’re bad at the game, you’ll be put against easier opponents.

The more you improve at the game, the more difficult the game becomes. Essencially, you are punished for being a better player by being put into more difficult lobbies where you are less free to do fun, but dumb, plays.

[Naqser]

@SPARSTE96

if you think that i deserve to lose 6 games in a row and be frustrated just because i managed to get high kills a few games before, i don’t know what to tell you.

As we say in Magic.
Reading the card explains the card.

I never said you deserved anything.
What I did say was that I find it ironic you talk about “sweats” after achieving stats other players would call you “Sweat” over, in addition to not knowing how serious, or hard, your opponents were that you called “Sweats”.

[Darwi]

@Lanky_B_YT

The more you improve at the game, the more difficult the game becomes. Essencially, you are punished for being a better player by being put into more difficult lobbies.

From a “competitive” aspect this always comes across as weird to me.

In virtually every other “sport” I have played you work hard to get better and play in a higher grade. Each step up is harder. But the reward is the feeling of progression / self accomplishment.

In cricket I was always striving to play in the highest grade my club competed in. The option of dropping back and “dominating” a lower grade was never entertained.

And anyone who did would have been ridiculed.

Even if I had to play a lower grade (work or shortages) there is no way I would have bowled at full pace.

I just find it weird that in video games player’s feel entitled to smash lower ranked players.

Maybe because people get to sit around by themselves and admire your K/D. It’s a “trophy” without context. You don’t have a bunch of team mates telling you pull your head in and try and get a “real” kill.

@Lanky_B_YT

where you are less free to do fun, but dumb, plays.

Why?

You are free to play how you like.

As long as you play consistently you will settle into a rank and attract appropriate team mates and opponents.

The problem comes when you want to do dumb plays AND get heaps of kills AND win the game.

[PL_Zywy]

It’s rather obvious, no? If you’re purposely NOT matchmaking people by ping, or platform, but have a rigged system that purposely matches people based on their performance, that system should compose even, balanced, fair teams.

The current system basically creates teams that consist on one Onyx-Diamond player, one Gold-Plat, and two Bronze-Silver, (using ranked ranks to paint the skill gap), which obviously is laughable at best, and with such system nobody has a right to enjoy the game, the better players complain that they’re having bots in team who can’t even stand on an area to capture it, whereas the worse players get completely destroyed over and over again.

What the system should do instead, if not matching players by ping, is to compose a team of 4 Gold-level players, agains other team of 4 Gold players, for example. Put all those guys who go 0-15 agains each other, so they actually have fun instead of uninstall the game after just a few days. And so on.

But, at this point in time it’s probably way too late for that, the same way forced global matchmaking was ditched a whole year after launch when it should have never been there in the first place, same for forced crossplay that’s still there, there’s just way too many failed decisions in Infinite and it yakes 343 way too long, if ever, to realize them and correct them. They’re just gonna continue with what the gane is arguing everything with low population, while those decisions are exactly what keeps the population low.

[Darwi]

@PL_Zywy

but have a rigged system that purposely matches people based on their performance, that system should compose even, balanced, fair teams.

I’m confused with this statement.

How is it “rigged”.

But to answer your question. Yes. If you are basing MM on performance the end should be balanced fair teams.

@PL_Zywy

(using ranked ranks to paint the skill gap)

Which means what?

How else are you going to judge a player’s expected performance?

@PL_Zywy

which obviously is laughable at best, and with such system nobody has a right to enjoy the game, the better players complain that they’re having bots in team who can’t even stand on an area to capture it, whereas the worse players get completely destroyed over and over again.

It’s frustrating. And I don’t think anyone is laughing.

But the MM can only work with who or what is available to play.

@PL_Zywy

is to compose a team of 4 Gold-level players, agains other team of 4 Gold players, for example. Put all those guys who go 0-15 agains each other, so they actually have fun instead of uninstall the game after just a few days. And so on.

It’s not rocket science that this is exactly what the MM wants to do.

But it can’t. Not enough players. Which is sad. But that’s the reality.

And squads of wide ranks forcing it’s hand.

@PL_Zywy

the same way forced global matchmaking was ditched a whole year after launch

Their opening gambit was a bit wider searching than it should have been.

But “global MM” seems a bit of hyperbole?

@PL_Zywy

same for forced crossplay

Which is perfectly fine.

Unless you’re overly paranoid about cheaters.

[PL_Zywy]

@Darwi

How else are you going to judge a player’s expected performance?

Score should be one of the main criteria. I mean, K/D means nothing, especially when you’re aiming at even teams/even players, which naturally leads to everyone having K/D around 1.0. But something like scores per game, score per minute etc. should do the job, because if you think about it - someone who does about 8 kills on average per match will at the end have lass score than someone who’s average is 12, who will have lower score than a player who goes almost 20 kills consistently, all that completely ignoring K/D. Then thete are objectives, which again, give you more points, which will further seperate players who just play TDM no matter the mode, or are simply bad and don’t do them ‘just because’, vs players who do contribute to the match outcome. Then thete ate assists, which further elevate your score, be it physically helping your teammates by dropping some damage, or by spotting, which can separates better playets even further. So all in all, while completely throwing any KDA, accuracy etc. I believe basing the players performance on the amount of points they’re getting on average in a match could paint a good picture of who’s on what kind of level, and then put together people who do get a certain of kills, assists and objectives into one match, and as you continue to play the game and het better at it, your rating will naturally increase and you would be put together with appropriate players.

@Darwi

But the MM can only work with who or what is available to play.

Which is also a separate topic/isdue - the MM basically doesn’t wait at all, mamy times the counter before getting into MM lasts longer than MM itself, it literally puts you in a lobby within 1-3s, I think everyone would agree that extending that time to even 20-30s in favor of composing actually even teams would be preferred instead, quality over quantity as they say.

[SPARSTE96]

@Darwi

It’s not a case of good matches being followed by bad matches. It’s just a balance over time.

Overwatch devs are trying to find a way to avoid excessive win/loss streaks… but Josh Menke thinks he made the most perfect system ever (lol) so he’s not gonna improve. And he left anyways, so who is gonna keep balancing matchmaking in this game? One more reason to avoid playing

@Darwi

But if you define fun as an easy win with 30+ kills… then you have to take your turn being on the other side and letting someone else have their turn.

Did i say that it was an easy win? No, i didn’t because it wasn’t… my teammates were going 2-20 1-15 you get the idea, some of those wins were based on LUCK

You just assume that getting lots of kills= easy win. It’s not like that. Some of the wins i got before the loss streak were decided in the last 10 seconds.
I can’t carry the flag back to base while my teammates keep dying over and over for example, you know that?

Another example, in black ops a played a match just a few minutes ago where i had 54 KILLS and 9 deaths. I can hear you already " are you happy that you stomped everyone"?
BUT the actual score at the end was 100-93. I won, but it was MY team who got slaughtered all the time. My team managed to get ahead of the enemy only near the end…

And what i’m complaining about is the sudden SPIKE in mmr, there was no reason at all for this lack of consistency other than the low population and the obsession with " your win rate is too high, now i’ll put you in an impossible match"

Lesson learned. I play btb only from now on so i don’t have to deal with these ridiculous mmr spikes

@Naqser

What I did say was that I find it ironic you talk about “sweats” after achieving stats other players would call you “Sweat” over, in addition to not knowing how serious, or hard, your opponents were that you called “Sweats”.

Whether they were trying hard or not doesn’t matter ( maybe you’re right, i think they weren’t, in retrospective my 2 random teammates were making the game easy for them). What matters is " is the game fun for me or should i play something else? " you can be the calmest persone in the world, but i bet that people don’t liike these kind of “difficulty spikes” at all, people want consistency

@PL_Zywy

Which is also a separate topic/isdue - the MM basically doesn’t wait at all, mamy times the counter before getting into MM lasts longer than MM itself, it literally puts you in a lobby within 1-3s, I think everyone would agree that extending that time to even 20-30s in favor of composing actually even teams would be preferred instead, quality over quantity as they say.

don’t think that longer wait times= better match
I have to wait at least 2-3 minutes everytime and the outcome of the game is totally unpredictable, sometimes i can stomp and sometimes i have to play like it’s the final of HCS…

[Lanky_B_YT]

Oh boy, let’s get into this then.

@Darwi

In virtually every other “sport” I have played you work hard to get better and play in a higher grade. Each step up is harder. But the reward is the feeling of progression / self accomplishment.

Firstly, it’s a game, not a sport. If you want to look at it that way then you’d have to look at the ranked mode in where people are trying to win. SBMM effects casual play mostly, so that’s what we’ll be using moving forwards.
Secondly, if the reward for improving is being placed into rigged matches, then no thank you. That’s not a reward, it’s a punishment. It is a fact that if you are the top player, you’re paired with the worst teammates. The current SBMM does not provide balanced matches, it provides near constant stomps.

@Darwi

I just find it weird that in video games player’s feel entitled to smash lower ranked players.

Simple answer? They don’t.

Let’s look at it from the lens of 2010’s Halo Reach.
Getting stomped? Message the top player on your team and ask to team up. Make friends with them and improve at the game.

Let’s look at it from the lens of 2023. You have looking for group posts, the custom games browser, Discord servers, matchmaking. You have so many more tools now to group up with players. It’s not up to 343i to make matches as balanced as they can, it’s up to players to give themself the best chance. Doing so builds communities and makes friends, which is a massive reason as to why Halo was so successful.

@Darwi

@Lanky_B_YT

where you are less free to do fun, but dumb, plays.

Why?

You are free to play how you like.

As long as you play consistently you will settle into a rank and attract appropriate team mates and opponents.

The problem comes when you want to do dumb plays AND get heaps of kills AND win the game.

I’d disagree, however it’s mostly down to the anti-vehicle sandbox which Halo Infinite has. The SBMM doesn’t help things since for players like myself, I’m constantly going against top Onyx players even in Fiesta. It just means that doing something dumb doesn’t really pay off whilst it would in previous games. I’m short on time, so I can’t go into much more detail with this.

My end summary really is that more players are playing MCC over Infinite for casual play. They’re doing so because they dislike the competitive feel of the game. You can’t even deny it, since 343i have admitted that Infinite is meant to be a competitive game.

[General_Fox]

If you want a more casual experience, that’s what the custom games browser is for.

Matchmaking is never going to leave social unfortunately, so asking for it is nothing short of a waste of everyone’s time. The best you can get is for them to improve upon it, but they’re never going to remove it out right and that’s all that really needs to be said.

[Darwi]

@PL_Zywy

Score should be one of the main criteria. I mean, K/D means nothing, especially when you’re aiming at even teams/even players, which naturally leads to everyone having K/D around 1.0. But something like scores per game, score per minute etc. should do the job, because if you think about it

So you are trying to “rank” the players.

Why not just use the tried and tested method already in play? - TrueSkill2.

@PL_Zywy

score per minute

Bingo. It’s actually the preferred individual metric of TrueSkill.

@PL_Zywy

I mean, K/D means nothing

Agree. Toxic stat.

@PL_Zywy

Then thete are objectives, which again, give you more points, which will further seperate players who just play TDM no matter the mode, or are simply bad and don’t do them ‘just because’, vs players who do contribute to the match outcome.

TrueSkill has already been through this.

If you haven’t already, I suggest you look up and read Microsoft’s discussion paper.

Essentially most of the things you are discussing all combine together and lead to the match outcome. So if you rank up and down based on the result you are essentially rewarding people for doing the right things.

There isn’t enough extra value in ranking up on individual scores etc.

@PL_Zywy

your rating will naturally increase and you would be put together with appropriate players.

Again TrueSkill2 has you covered.

The problem though, is that any ranking system you describe, and/or matchmaking algorithm - is still left with the same problem. There aren’t enough numbers in the population to create the spread of teams we prefer.

@PL_Zywy

the MM basically doesn’t wait at all, mamy times the counter before getting into MM lasts longer than MM itself, it literally puts you in a lobby within 1-3s, I think everyone would agree that extending that time to even 20-30s in favor of composing actually even teams would be preferred instead, quality over quantity as they say.

It may have been 2-3s for you - but others in the game were probably waiting a lot longer for you to come along.

And furthermore, the MM system actually looks ahead. It knows who is playing and who will be available. So it knows when to cut it’s losses and push ahead with a match.

[Darwi]

@SPARSTE96

but Josh Menke thinks he made the most perfect system ever (lol)

Don’t think Josh ever said that.

@SPARSTE96

so who is gonna keep balancing matchmaking in this game?

TrueSkill2 is Microsoft.

And then 343 would have their own Matchmaking team.

@SPARSTE96

No, i didn’t because it wasn’t… my teammates were going 2-20

The key is that they aren’t enjoying it either.

What you are describing is a situation where there is too wide a skill range in the teams. So the top has to carry. The bottom has to survive.

It sucks.

But it’s not the fault of TrueSkill or the SBMM.

All it can do is balance the teams and let people enjoy the contest.

What’s the alternative? Because if you have imbalanced teams then one team is going to have all the fun. And in some cases only 1 or 2 players on that team.

[Darwi]

@Lanky_B_YT

Firstly, it’s a game, not a sport.

Let’s call in an “endeavour” then.

But it doesn’t matter. cricket, football, Halo, chess, croquet, judo, debating, archery…

Amateur / Professional. Competitive / Social.

They still tend to divide themselves into divisions where people of similar skills can compete against each other.

@Lanky_B_YT

Secondly, if the reward for improving is being placed into rigged matches, then no thank you. That’s not a reward, it’s a punishment.

What’s your ideal reward then?

@Lanky_B_YT

It is a fact that if you are the top player, you’re paired with the worst teammates.

Because pairing the top player with the second top player is going to work really well.

The MM is doing the best it can with what’s available.

What is the alternative?

@Lanky_B_YT

The current SBMM does not provide balanced matches, it provides near constant stomps.

I imagine the data at 343 would show that the SBMM is ticking all the boxes in creating the overall 50:50 win rate it ascribes to.

But the wider spread of ranks inside teams is creating an imbalance in personal scores; top players have to carry, bottom players have to survive. Which isn’t fun.

And I have no doubt that the spread of ranks creates blow outs in the scores. Particularly in objective games. It’s “easier” for the top players to carry their team in Slayer. Much harder in games like CTF.

@Lanky_B_YT

Message the top player on your team and ask to team up. Make friends with them and improve at the game.

I agree this stuff is sorely missed.

343 has completely dropped the ball here.

Teaming up. Post game chats. Clans. etc.

@Lanky_B_YT

however it’s mostly down to the anti-vehicle sandbox which Halo Infinite has.

Agree again. I don’t play a lot of BTB - but running around in a Hog with mates doesn’t last anywhere near long enough.

But that’s a separate issue from SBMM.

[Lanky_B_YT]

@Darwi

But it doesn’t matter. cricket, football, Halo, chess, croquet, judo, debating, archery…

Amateur / Professional. Competitive / Social.

They still tend to divide themselves into divisions where people of similar skills can compete against each other.

You’re somewhat right on this. You’re always going to have different skill levels, however that’s why ranked exists. If you want to go against people on your level, play ranked. Simple as that honestly. If you don’t, play the other modes. I’d like for the game to try and have a low level of SBMM involved, but it be just that. Similar to the system used in Halo 3.

@Darwi

@Lanky_B_YT

Secondly, if the reward for improving is being placed into rigged matches, then no thank you. That’s not a reward, it’s a punishment.

What’s your ideal reward then?

Halo 3 ranking system.

@Darwi

@Lanky_B_YT

It is a fact that if you are the top player, you’re paired with the worst teammates.

Because pairing the top player with the second top player is going to work really well.

The MM is doing the best it can with what’s available.

What is the alternative?

I’m not suggesting the top player is teamed up with the second highest player.

It would be better if the teams went like this. Red (1 4 5 8) Blue (2 3 6 7)
That would provide a more even spread with both teams having a mix of skills in the match rather than having one player have to hard carry.

Or, you could do what every other Halo title did with matchmaking.

We both agree that the social features in previous Halo titles basically allowed for us to meet skilled players and become friends with them. I used to run a massive Clan back in Reach, and I planned on doing the same in Infinite. Trouble was, no social features.

[Darwi]

@Lanky_B_YT

I’d like for the game to try and have a low level of SBMM involved

The matching of teams needs to be tight.

But the matching of players can be a little looser. Ideally in ranked everyone is very close to the same skill level.

The problem at the moment is that the players are too widely spread.

Somewhat, ironically, the low population is loosening the SBMM to the point that games feel unfair.

@Lanky_B_YT

Halo 3 ranking system.

The old 1-50?

But really the only difference is;

1. Bronze to Onyx instead of 1-50
2. TrueSkill2 instead of TrueSkill
3. No hidden levels.
4. Refreshing sigma values to stop rank locking.

@Lanky_B_YT

It would be better if the teams went like this. Red (1 4 5 8) Blue (2 3 6 7)

Which is kind of what happens?

1 & 2 are Onyx.

3 - 6 are Platinum / Gold

7 and 8 are Silver

And you’re back to square one. The Onyx players carrying. The Silver players sinking. And the rest kind of feeling like they have no control.

The answer is more players to match make with.

@Lanky_B_YT

I used to run a massive Clan back in Reach, and I planned on doing the same in Infinite.

Sounds awesome.

Hopefully you’ll get your chance at some stage.