Hello everyone,
I have a very simple question to ask
How does this joke of ranking system work?
Everywhere I look it’s said that “you need to play well”…WHAT DOES THAT MEANS?!
I always played Halo so I’m not a casual ignorant of the game, I play ok in terms of K/D (8 matches on 10 I’m 5-6kill positive even tho I too like every one have “bad days”) and I have to always carry the match with a friend of mine I’m terms of objective play (most of the times we have to score/defend points, some times get it stolen by bad teammates at the flag score point for example)
So, K/D is ok most times and OBJ time is behind good a lot of times right?
So…now tell me why if we loose I loose all point and if we win I get a +2 joke
Ok, let’s say I need to overplay my K/D, sometimes gat a nice 32-14 and around a minute of Ball-control and still receive +1 or +2
Maybe it depends on the general ranks of the lobby
Wrong too! I’m always, and I mean ALWAYS in a “balanced team” I’m Diamond V and my friend Platinum IV and the 2 randoms (if we play just me and him) are between the 2 of us and that’s ok (even if they don’t play always like they’re displayed rank, generally worse) but in the enemy team we get match-ups like 2 between our ranks, 1 super low Gold III and 1 Onix (this is not an example, we found it for real) or 3 around our level + one Onix
This doesn’t have any sense!! Because it will cost minimum 5 point in case of loss and +3 in a win condition!
So…I really think we need a real matchmaking/ranking system because the cheep one we got isn’t barely functioning
Am I the only one who have this problem? Am I delusional?
I’m curious to hear what you think or experience
K-D is all that seems to matter, along with K-D of everyone else. Feels like it stack ranks you. Note K/D is seemingly meaningless. I’d rather go 25-20 than 5-0. It’s also particularly important that you get the most kills. All else being equal it will likely not help you to go 10-10 each game being middle of the team.
Objective appears meaningless, assists and damage may have a small impact.
Overall the ranking system promotes people to not play objective, because it doesn’t help their rank. This is annoyingly actually the logical thing to do. It’s why you see all these onyx players with win/loss of 30-45%. By only playing slayer these guys inflate their MMR beyond where their real skill is at by ignoring a key element of the game (objective). In turn, they start getting worse and worse teammates because the game is balancing their very high (artificially high MMR) with poorer teammates. These players will now have a massive MMR that goes up whether they win or lose, meaning when they do happen to win a game in objective, via fluke, or by slaying the other team - they are awarded 15 points. When they lose they lose nothing because they just kill people anyway. It’s easier to get the most kills when you don’t need to hold an oddball.
So if you really want a high rank in the game, just go around slaying. But don’t let a high rank convince you that you’re good, because this game in particular is very objective based and teammates who refuse to play any objective quite often are the reason that teams lose.
The core system is TrueSkill 2 I believe if you want to research. Maybe they have a regression/learning on top on some random stats, but nothing I personally have noticed as meaningful.
I would like to see the ranking system updated to focus on the in-game score which was what I believed when I first played. Then the scores could be tweaked overtime as e.g. strongholds can be a little bit boosted, flags maybe a bit low, king has no score etc. I think this could work nicely and it would be good to incentivise hybrid playing more than slaying. Then we can stop these passive aggressive messages people make on the chat around playing objective(which I’ve turned off as it’s distracting).
Idea being if people actually got rank for playing objective they would play objective (shocker!).
Otherwise one can only hope for a team slayer playlist instead which would also fix this problem.
Additionally you can play in a team for cross play which provides a massive coordination boost against random individual players - so you can get very high K-D on these teams by working together. Once again this will artificially boost the MMR which is where the CSR will ultimately go.
Apparently there is some higher MMR factor applied when in a team vs. searching solo (so it boosts your skill for searching) to counteract this problem. But the factor is nowhere near aggressive enough. The more objective modes getting put in crossplay means it is evermore important also.
You have a hidden MMR number that the game has already decided where you should be. What you’re describing is what happens when you start to get above that hidden number and so the game will just constantly try and pull you back down to that number and make it difficult for you to get very far past it.
You should be thankful to 343 for telling you how you should have fun with ranked!
(By the way, it works exactly the same in social, but you just don’t see any CSR number.)
You are not delusional. I just played a few games and decreased a lot in rank when losing and gaining a bit when i won. The rank system is stupid. The worst part is they will not even add an unranked arena playlist.
Unfortunately, its like the other said. Its all about kills. Even if its an objective game mode.
And the hidden MMR rank that takes forever to adjust. Then add desync and lag in the equation. Then you have almost no chance to get positive k/d in the match.
I wish what you said here was true! I have the opposite problem, many days where i underperform but my MMR seems to always stay the same no matter how badly i lose… if it decreases at all, it must be a tiny difference of very few points
This just means the magic hidden MMR number that 343 has assigned you is higher than your visible CSR and so the game won’t let you go down. This often happens if you regularly play with friends(s) who aren’t as good as you, although it can happen for other reasons as well.
It means, play to the best of your ability and your rank will take care of itself.
Winning is more important.
What we have is essentially a team ranking. So the make up of your team is important. Playing a lot with friends can help or hinder your overall rank depending on the make up of the team.
Everyone has good or bad team mates (unless you run exclusively as a four squad).
How much CSR you win or lose is mainly on the MMRs compared to the opponent and your MMR compared to your CSR.
There is no correlation to per game CSR changes and your in-game performance. It is weighted for it, but it’s lost in the noise. You can check out my thread here;
Yep. It’s all on the win, the relative ranks of the players, and any drift of the CSR away from your MMR.
This is a separate issue. Teams are trying to milk CSR by manipulating their squads. An Onyx or two, a mid range Smurf, and a low level Sandbagger (Silver or Bronze). I literally come across them 2 to 3 times a day as well. It’s something 343 need to address.
The ranking is “real”. The discussion paper by MS on TrueSkill2 is worth a read (just skim over the math bits).
Not quite. There is a weighting for kill and death counts. Both are adjusted to time (which makes them kill and death rates) and for the number of players on both teams.
And the weighting for them isn’t huge.
The emphasis is still on winning.
They get lost in the win.
You play the objective and you win.
The TS2 discussion paper talks about how they looked at objective score and found it didn’t add anything to the skill prediction over the win/loss.
And this makes sense. Kill rates are an independent predictor of skill. They can be used to rank you faster (but not higher). A big fish in a small pond will have a high kill rate. At higher levels / even matches you can manipulate your K/D or K-D, but it is almost impossible to push your K/min.
Difficult to objectively quantify how people play and how it helps.
Kills mean a lot in objective. Not dying even more. And even in Slayer you can do things that help the team that aren’t recorded in the K/D.
But people who do the team things will get more wins and their rank will be rewarded over time.
Overall the ranking system promotes people who do their part and win.
Besides… if you look at any high level play, the players are doing both. They are carrying the oddball but dropping it when needed. They try not to die. They get kills to protect the ball. The good teams / players do both.
I imagine they are all a bit closer to 50%. And that’s how the system is supposed to work. Settle into your rank and then continue at around 50%.
And you can still rank up with less than 50% win loss as long most of those wins are against teams ranked higher than you.
win the game.
get as many kills as you can while winning.
don’t die.
Which is good advice for all the game modes.
Yep. And reading the discussion paper is a good start to your research…
If you read the paper you can see they looked at objective scores and found no predictive value.
The weighting is probably fine. I mean it’s easy for them to review the data and adjust the value as needed.
The problem in these teams is that they tend to use Smurfs as well. The one that I had the other day had a Silver 6 that went plus 10 vs a group of Diamonds. And they use these fake accounts to quit out if / when the team is losing to cut their losses.
These players do grind / increase their MMR. But I get the impression it’s a very slow way to do it. So the “boost” from K/D aren’t that high. Their MMR is still higher than all the other players so it will be slow to move. But they’re manipulating the system to make sure the trend is up.
I imagine the win was vs a team ranked lower than you. So no gain. The loss was probably an upset. So you lose more rank.
And if you had just had a few expected wins your CSR can drift a bit above your MMR. The system tends to pinch it back when you eventually lose.
But remember, we are talking a handful of CSR points on a scale of 1 to 1800+. Those few steps up/down are frustrating, but not significant.
Kills and deaths. Over time. Adjusted to team numbers.
And it’s only a bit about them.
A stable MMR isn’t supposed to move much. The idea is the system finds your rank as quickly as it can, and then gives you a chance to solidify it. Once the system is confident in your rank your curve becomes harder to move.
You shouldn’t lose your rank over a couple of bad matches.
It can be frustrating when you are having a bad day. I think Menke mentioned once that naturally people can vary by up to +/- 150 points in “form”.
Im gonna be real, I can’t understand if you’re a dev or not but with “real” ranking system I mean something that doesn’t make me waste time playing a beta
The post wasn’t only to ask the “technical part” of the system but a something to think about how this game is made…
Tell me, is it fun and acceptable that I can waste 20 minutes in a Stronghold match in Live Fire for the 10th time in a row just to barely win with particularly good K/D agains a “higher skilled” team competed to mine (yes I’m talking about Onix at low-mid Diamonds/high Platinum) and get +2 point just to waste another 20 minutes against the same exact team (ether because matchmaking is horrible or because this game is empty and both are facts at this point), loose it barely but still playing good and get a -10?!
Is it fun and acceptable when you get matched with players that are Unraked and barely played the tutorial?!
Yes I’ve started to check all the lobby’s rank after half season 1 and I swear I get does player a lot
Problem is that I’m expecting to play at High Platinum-low Diamond considering my friend’s rank and mine not unranked!
And BTW getting obviously destroyed because we are 3v4 at this point
Is it fun to loose a ton of point just because during the match this beta of a game decide to spawn you ether surrounded by the enemy (example Slayer) or spawn you so f***ing far from the objective that bu the time you arrive the enemy already won 3 hole matches?!
(And don’t try to say “uh just don’t die” because that can happen, especially if the match is unbalanced/unfair like usual)
Is it fun that you can manipulate MMR by playing casual matches or even Bot matches?!
Not even talking about the other hundreds and hundreds of broken stuff that ruins what could have been the grates Halo in years (crouch-spam, broken bullet magnetism, Weapon that should be fix at least a bit and ecc…)
This is a dumpster fire of a system AND game
Having problem not only in the game that makes it hard to play at times, the ONLY and I mean it ONLY rewarding thing that you could have it’s SCRIPTED
Yes I said it, a system that EVEN IF YOU WIN BY A LOT in different aspects of the match YOU WILL NOT BE REWARDED FARLEY BUT THE OPPOSITE
At the first valid occasion you WILL get PUNISHED JUST BECAUSE YOU GOT HIGHER THAN WHAT THE GAME WANT YOU TO STAY
I’m sorry but as an old player this goes on my nerves, this is not fun, this is not fair, and this is not even respectful for the people who play the game that they love, we are giving our time playing and not having anything “in return” but 2 fun matches with friends before the game gets already boring and makes me turn off the console
If the system was made like the MCC’s one I wouldn’t be mad, that’s a hard one to grind but it isn’t unfair, it’s evergreen considering that to get rank 50 you have to play 24/7
I’m not here to judge what people find fun or acceptable.
But the thing is… it doesn’t matter how much time or effort you put in, if you haven’t increased in skill, or at least proven that you have, you shouldn’t rank up. Picking anecdotal examples of where you did well “personally” isn’t a great argument for ranking up.
What you are talking about is some sort of XP rank. Weighted to performance. And I agree, this is desperately needed in Infinite.
As for the CSR - I think 343 made a huge mistake basing it on the same x-scale as the MMR. 1 to 1800+ is just not significant in the degrees we’re talking.
Your CSR is just oscillating around your MMR. Small gains and losses. Often the pattern is a few steps forward and a bit of a jump back. But we are still talking less than 0.75% jumps on the x-axis.
As a player you are feeling every bump and taking it personally. As far as the system is concerned your skill hasn’t changed.
This is why CSR’s work better at smaller scales. 1 to 50 for example. It takes out the minor fluctuations (so you can’t get upset about them).
It happens. We were all “unranked” at some stage. The system takes their wide and volatile MMR’s into account when working out the results.
I’m not that good a player - but the good teams talk about controlling the spawn points. So maybe you are just being outplayed. I think the key is to make sure you are not separated from your team and close to where the enemy is about to respawn (the furthest spawn point from the bulk of your team).
You can’t. That argument is way over-rated.
Instead the focus should be on squad manipulation with smurfs and/or sandbaggers. That’s where the match making comes under the most pressure.
Which is good. Seeing as this thread is about ranking.
You are rewarded for the win with respect to the quality of the opposition.
People seem to get upset when they aren’t personally rewarded for a good game. Even though this usually suggests that the opposition weren’t that good. On the same token, they rarely complain that they weren’t penalised harder for doing badly in a losing game vs better opponents.
I think the key here is to work out exactly what you want “in return”.
It probably shouldn’t be skill rank. After all, you haven’t necessarily earnt it. But some sort of XP rank would definitely fill the role. Especially if it’s weighted to that personal performance you hold so dear.
I haven’t played MCC. But the ranking is based on H2? If so, it’s not a good system. It’s a slow grind that is notorious for poorly matched games (at least early).
A skill rank is not something you should “grind for”. Sure, you can always work to get better. But the system should just reflect back your skill level as quickly and as accurately as it can.
I think the basic problem with MM is that the AI treats the skill as a linear scale. The reality is that it seems pretty linear up to about High plat low diamond. But once you get to D3 and above I feel like it’s a log difference in skill. So even if the average MMR of the 2 teams is close, the reality is that an onyx player affects the match so much more and can completely control the match. Pair that onyx with a high diamond and some golds or low plats they will generally beat a team of low diamonds.
As a low Diamond player I find opponents out to D5 seem pretty consistent. But D6 into Onyx can be a bit over the place.
Some of that will be players from high functional teams (where they earnt their rank) struggling a bit when going for a solo hit out.
And look, any ranking system is going to struggle a little at either end. There just aren’t enough players in the match making pool to throw enough quality matches at players to accurately sort the ranks. Some players, if they are at the top end of the food chain, are going to get way more (relatively) easy games.
What you really need is tournament type structures - but that’s unrealistic for an online game like Infinite. And without that quality input any ranking system is going to have a few quirks.
And I think a lot of are players who are grinding their way from D5-6 into Onyx using somewhat nefarious means. I’m talking those who use team mates who are sandbags or smurfs to upset the MMR calculations.
When you come up against a genuine Onyx player, you know it.
Yeah. those folks who finish the match with like, five perfect medals.
On that note I’m CONSISTENTLY being matched against Onyx players but rarely WITH them, lol. I am… VERY tired of being the ONLY member of my team to go positive, it KEEPS. HAPPENING.
The problem isn’t the amount of kill that I get but rather how am I supposed to do tons of kills wile being forced to play objective too ‘cause teammates aren’t bothering for the slightest
(Grenades in Infinite are literally land mine, always detonation time is set always to explode under/sticked to you some times it can explode instantly after the bounce other times it bounces stay active in the air for what feels an hour and boom, right in your face. Never seen soo many ‘nade kills in a single match in any other Halo title)
It’s odd at times. My friends and I can be playing open on 1800s and match d5, d6 and 1500s from time to time. Other times it’s closer. I’ve played on alts before too that’s placed d5 and get a 2k onyx on my team. I think if there was a greater population, things might be more evenly spread. I still wish the game placed you in matches against your visible division rank instead of the other stuff. If you’re onyx skill, you’ll make your way through diamond easy enough, and will eventually match other onyx once you get up there. There really should be a limit on what you can party up with though. You can have a friend make an account, throw all 10 placement games and get placed bronze 1. Then party up with high onyx and match golds, plate & diamonds. After a few games just toss on the account again and it resets it. Not the most fun system once you learn how to abuse it.