I would like to start off and say that the majority of what customs loadouts gave us was detrimental to Halos core gameplay. It increased randomness by increasing the uncertainty of what your opponent capable of. This is the main argument against custom loadouts, and is why fully customizable loadouts should not return to Halo. But the main argument for custom loadouts was that it allowed players to spawn with the weapon they wanted and played to their style. And this is something Halo hasn’t provided for its players but is something that maybe it should have to some extent. So my suggestion is that players should be allowed to choose to spawn with either an Assault Rifle, Battle Rifle, Storm Rifle, or a Covenant Carbine. And should be allowed to aesthetically customize it to their liking. Being able to choose the skin or coloration for their weapon and for the AR and the BR being able to choose which model they would like. The option interface would be similar to choosing your armor, and if you would like to switch your spawn weapon you would be able to do so while waiting to re-spawn. This would allow each player to feel more unique from other players, without increasing the uncertainty of what they are capable of to other players.
This is how I would balance the three utility weapons available in loadouts:
Magnum – 4 shot kill, 8 shot magazine, 1.0 sec killtime
Carbine – 7 shot kill, 18 shot magazine, 1.1 sec killtime
Battle Rifle – 10 bullet kill, 36 bullet magazine, 1.2 sec killtime
I would also throw a 1.4 second killtime Assault Rifle in there just so players weren’t forced to use a precision weapon.
All other weapons would be map pick ups.
Totally pro allowing players to choose their starting weapons. Why? Well, for 3 main reasons;
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Variety: Even though Halo 4, At first, was a DMR-Fest. You still saw a lot more Covenant and Forerunner weapons then previous games. Automatics were also more common. Having the same weapons can lead to some rather ‘Stale’ game play in my opinion.
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Equal Starts: Every player would have the same options. Regardless of their Rank of Skill level.
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It can be disabled: Pretty straight forward here. 343 could very easily have playlists where this feature is disabled and you are forced to use the same weapons across the board.
Whether you like it or not, Halo is in the Modern age of gaming. Giving players the options for different weapons upon spawning is not only a valid change, But also a way to keep the Multiplayer fresh while not destroying it’s core game play*.
*Provided that 343 does it right…
> I would like to start off and say that the majority of what customs loadouts gave us was detrimental to Halos core gameplay. It increased randomness by increasing the uncertainty of what your opponent capable of. This is the main argument against custom loadouts
That is not the main argument against loadouts. If it is, then this community doesn’t know half of it.
The main problem with having customizable loadouts is that in order to balance out the weapons you had to make them fulfill the same role in the weapon sandbox. So instead of one precision weapon, you now have three that do the exact same job with only minor differences. This create a rock, paper, scissors style of gameplay and makes the weapon sandbox cluttered with useless crap. It is completely against the equal start core gameplay that everybody knows Halo for.
> > I would like to start off and say that the majority of what customs loadouts gave us was detrimental to Halos core gameplay. It increased randomness by increasing the uncertainty of what your opponent capable of. This is the main argument against custom loadouts
>
> That is not the main argument against loadouts. If it is, then this community doesn’t know half of it.
>
> The main problem with having customizable loadouts is that in order to balance out the weapons you had to make them fulfill the same role in the weapon sandbox. So instead of one precision weapon, you now have three that do the exact same job with only minor differences. This create a rock, paper, scissors style of gameplay and makes the weapon sandbox cluttered with useless crap. It is completely against the equal start core gameplay that everybody knows Halo for.
+1,000,000,000,000
No loadouts!!! Just cause we are in ‘modern’ gaming, whatever that means, it doesn’t mean Halo should copy other games that let you choose your starting weapon. Halo works best when everyone starts with the same weapon. Like the poster above said, it helps with the sandbox gameplay.
> rock, paper, scissors
I would more consider rocks, paper, scissor loadouts to be something like this:
-AR kills fastest but has shortest range
-DMR kills slowest but has longest range
-BR kills medium and has medium range
Then, encounters are simply decided by what range they occur at.
> > I would like to start off and say that the majority of what customs loadouts gave us was detrimental to Halos core gameplay. It increased randomness by increasing the uncertainty of what your opponent capable of. This is the main argument against custom loadouts
>
> That is not the main argument against loadouts. If it is, then this community doesn’t know half of it.
>
> The main problem with having customizable loadouts is that in order to balance out the weapons you had to make them fulfill the same role in the weapon sandbox. So instead of one precision weapon, you now have three that do the exact same job with only minor differences. This create a rock, paper, scissors style of gameplay and makes the weapon sandbox cluttered with useless crap. It is completely against the equal start core gameplay that everybody knows Halo for.
The arguments you’re making are fair enough but how on Earth does the problem of re-skinned weapons directly lead to the problem of rock, paper, scissors game play?
Rock, paper, scissors game play results from from having weapons that are completely different from each other available but each weapon is designed to do ok one third of the time, completely get shut out another third of the time and win without any difficulty for the last third of the time. Rock, paper, scissors is actually the result of the weapons being to different, not being to similar.
A game where the AR can only fight in CQC and the BR can only fight in medium range is what Halo with rock, paper, scissors game play would look like. But it’s not exactly like that given that the AR is intended to have a fair bit of medium range potential while the BR has close range potential which results in the two weapons being able to oppose each other in a variety of situations. If it were rock, paper, scissors the AR would win 100% of the time in CQC and the BR would win 100% of the time in medium range which isn’t the intention of load outs. This is because the weapons have similarities in their range based effectiveness, so having some similarities isn’t a bad thing . And if you do things like pairing the AR up with the Magnum there’s even more room to give the AR power outside it’s niche and avoid rock, paper, scissors combat.
Keeping a good balance between making the weapons too similar or too different is going to be a key factor if Halo 5’s gonna have a revised load out system.
And I can’t stress enough that equal starts and identical starts aren’t the same thing. Equal starts are achievable with load outs.
I should also note that having weapons with the same niche within load outs shouldn’t be considered the problem that it is. Weapons like the CC aren’t wastes of space. People do prefer the CC and actually find themselves to be much better with it over the BR despite the fact that they’re equal in effectiveness and complete the same purpose. Some people think and do things differently from others and small things like the different stats of the CC simply allow people like that to better compete against other players. I myself can say that I play better with a Carbine over a BR despite the fact that both weapons are in the same niche.
> > rock, paper, scissors
>
> I would more consider rocks, paper, scissor loadouts to be something like this:
>
> -AR kills fastest but has shortest range
> -DMR kills slowest but has longest range
> -BR kills medium and has medium range
>
> Then, encounters are simply decided by what range they occur at.
What you’re saying here is absolutely correct and if rock, paper scissors game play ever happens this will be the source of it.
What 343 needs to do to make sure that that doesn’t happen is put emphasis on the fact that the AR and DMR can also compete in medium range and the BR can compete in close and long range. This is when the lines between rock, paper and scissors begin to blur. Pairing the primaries up with compensating secondaries like the AR-Magnum and DMR-SMG combos would do a lot to help the problem too along with well built maps of course.
> > rock, paper, scissors
>
> I would more consider rocks, paper, scissor loadouts to be something like this:
>
> -AR kills fastest but has shortest range
> -DMR kills slowest but has longest range
> -BR kills medium and has medium range
>
> Then, encounters are simply decided by what range they occur at.
So then the game becomes a long and short range camp fest. People will sit back and spam the DMR at everyone from distance while the close range people just wait around corners. Yes it is rock, paper, scissors, when you write it down on paper (HA!), but it doesn’t actually work. After the title update, this is exactly how the weapons were balanced and we still see exactly what I laid out above.
The only reason people see a lot of BR battle is because the BR has the highest kill time and if you have the skill, you can beat the other weapons. Also, the non-responsive movement in H4 makes it impossible to out strafe your opponents unless they are really bad, so the BR can land a ton of shots with ease, so the BR users can actually run around a bit and do some work.
What should happen is what happened in the past. Everyone spawn with the same weapon, so everyone has the exact same chance at all ranges when they spawn. Then when you find a new weapon that is on the map, you get a different advantage. The only problem with this equation of weapons is that some are just trash in the recent Halo games. Each weapon should have it’s own unique advantage rather than just a unique kill time.
Just start us off with an smg, problems solved lol.
> Just start us off with an smg, problems solved lol.
Ha! what a troll.
> This is how I would balance the three utility weapons available in loadouts:
>
> Magnum – 4 shot kill, 8 shot magazine, 1.0 sec killtime
> Carbine – 7 shot kill, 18 shot magazine, 1.1 sec killtime
> Battle Rifle – 10 bullet kill, 36 bullet magazine, 1.2 sec killtime
>
> I would also throw a 1.4 second killtime Assault Rifle in there just so players weren’t forced to use a precision weapon.
>
> All other weapons would be map pick ups.
> I would more consider rocks, paper, scissor loadouts to be something like this:
>
> -AR kills fastest but has shortest range
> -DMR kills slowest but has longest range
> -BR kills medium and has medium range
>
> Then, encounters are simply decided by what range they occur at.
These quotes right here best reflect my ideal loadout. If you do away with the AA’s and perks and 1-sk weapons, you still have something that can be equal and fair, assuming proper implementation.
No reason why players shouldn’t pick a weapon that suits their playing style. If I’m a CQC guy, then let me wield an AR effective at close range but useless beyond that. If the kill times are roughly equal, the it’s merely a matter of how you prefer to pull your trigger. Is there really that much difference between a 4-shot BR and a 6-shot Carbine if they can both kill a player in the same time at a medium range?
> > This is how I would balance the three utility weapons available in loadouts:
> >
> > Magnum – 4 shot kill, 8 shot magazine, 1.0 sec killtime
> > Carbine – 7 shot kill, 18 shot magazine, 1.1 sec killtime
> > Battle Rifle – 10 bullet kill, 36 bullet magazine, 1.2 sec killtime
> >
> > I would also throw a 1.4 second killtime Assault Rifle in there just so players weren’t forced to use a precision weapon.
> >
> > All other weapons would be map pick ups.
>
>
>
> > I would more consider rocks, paper, scissor loadouts to be something like this:
> >
> > -AR kills fastest but has shortest range
> > -DMR kills slowest but has longest range
> > -BR kills medium and has medium range
> >
> > Then, encounters are simply decided by what range they occur at.
>
> These quotes right here best reflect my ideal loadout. If you do away with the AA’s and perks and 1-sk weapons, you still have something that can be equal and fair, assuming proper implementation.
>
> No reason why players shouldn’t pick a weapon that suits their playing style. If I’m a CQC guy, then let me wield an AR effective at close range but useless beyond that. If the kill times are roughly equal, the it’s merely a matter of how you prefer to pull your trigger. Is there really that much difference between a 4-shot BR and a 6-shot Carbine if they can both kill a player in the same time at a medium range?
A system similar to what he states here wouldn’t work due to the fact that long range has more power over map flow. If the DMR gets a loadout like this it will turn into a situation like Reach and Hemorrhage where the DMR forced people to stick to the outside of the map, completely ruining the flow of that map.
I have said this a couple times, the ideal loadout should feature 4 primary weapons (BR, AR, Carbine, and Storm Rifle) and 2 secondaries(Magnum, Plasma Rifle) It is important that the secondaries can hold their own and are not side-arms, but true secondaries. This would allow for people to play how they want while still keeping the game balanced and equal. Starting with long range rifles would just be too powerful, both the DMR and Light Rifle should be relegated to map pickups.
Edit: Obviously this should go without saying, no perks or AA’s. Grenades should also be limited to frags only.
> > This is how I would balance the three utility weapons available in loadouts:
> >
> > Magnum – 4 shot kill, 8 shot magazine, 1.0 sec killtime
> > Carbine – 7 shot kill, 18 shot magazine, 1.1 sec killtime
> > Battle Rifle – 10 bullet kill, 36 bullet magazine, 1.2 sec killtime
> >
> > I would also throw a 1.4 second killtime Assault Rifle in there just so players weren’t forced to use a precision weapon.
> >
> > All other weapons would be map pick ups.
>
>
>
> > I would more consider rocks, paper, scissor loadouts to be something like this:
> >
> > -AR kills fastest but has shortest range
> > -DMR kills slowest but has longest range
> > -BR kills medium and has medium range
> >
> > Then, encounters are simply decided by what range they occur at.
>
> These quotes right here best reflect my ideal loadout. If you do away with the AA’s and perks and 1-sk weapons, you still have something that can be equal and fair, assuming proper implementation.
>
> No reason why players shouldn’t pick a weapon that suits their playing style. If I’m a CQC guy, then let me wield an AR effective at close range but useless beyond that. If the kill times are roughly equal, the it’s merely a matter of how you prefer to pull your trigger. <mark>Is there really that much difference between a 4-shot BR and a 6-shot Carbine if they can both kill a player in the same time at a medium range?</mark>
This is exactly the problem with loadouts. These are two weapons that serve the same purpose. This dilutes the sandbox and causes blatant reskins of weapons. If people want variety, they can’t have complete balance. Sure one shoots faster, but they are both semi-auto precision weapons, capable of headshots. If they are balanced, they have the exact same kill time and therefore it is unnecessary to have both in the game.
There should be one spawn weapon, which is useful at all ranges, but rule over none. Lets use the same weapon that has been around forever, the BR. In games where there was descoping, you were able to ping the sniper so he couldn’t just pick you off with ease. He had to work for his kill if you could hit him. However, you couldn’t kill him at distance if he was intelligent because of the spread of the bullets. You could keep the weapons like a shotgun at bay because you could fight them effectively outside of their range. This is what a spawn weapon should do. It should offer the most protection so you don’t get rolled over on the spawn.
Give everyone a spawn weapon weapon as stated above, then put the rest of the weapons on the map, but make them unique and let people fight over a more powerful weapon. It’s simple, effective, and it has worked in other games before.
No loadouts, period! If you want a different/better weapon you should have to earn it by fighting for it on the map. Make this game about more than just who has the best aim. Make it about who has the best aim AND who controls the map the best AND who has the best teamwork. I’m anti-anything-loadout.
> No loadouts, period! If you want a different/better weapon you should have to earn it by fighting for it on the map. Make this game about more than just who has the best aim. Make it about who has the best aim AND who controls the map the best AND who has the best teamwork. I’m anti-anything-loadout.
Yeah! Who needs load-outs when we can just spawn with the best wep and almost all weps on map are useless!
@Doogle, I hope when you say “and it has worked in other games” you do not mean H2 nor H3 because all map weps sucked compared to a BR. (outside of power weps)
> Give everyone a spawn weapon weapon as stated above, then put the rest of the weapons on the map, but make them unique and let people fight over a more powerful weapon. It’s simple, effective, and it has worked in other games before.
The whole concept of putting other weapons on the map and “fighting” over them doesn’t really sit well with me, especially if they are loadout-style weapons. Sure, the Spartan Laser, Rocket Launcher, whatever, should go in the middle of the map so both sides can fight over one.
But 9 times out of 10, the BRs, SMGs, Magnums, DMRs are sitting right there available to you within seconds of spawn. Is it that big a deal to start with one in your hands when you can just walk in the safety of your starting base to the same weapon that is resting up against a wall?
Even if so, you’re not really fighting your own teammates for it, are you? Jockeying for position, maybe, but if we take competition to its logical conclusion, then Halo has no business pitting teammate against teammate, especially when one usually spawns closer to the on-map pickup than someone else.
> No reason why players shouldn’t pick a weapon that suits their playing style. If I’m a CQC guy, then let me wield an AR effective at close range but useless beyond that. If the kill times are roughly equal, the it’s merely a matter of how you prefer to pull your trigger. Is there really that much difference between a 4-shot BR and a 6-shot Carbine if they can both kill a player in the same time at a medium range?
I would argue in many modern loadout shooters (including H4) people do not really pick items that suit their personal playstyle (in the sense like controller layouts and settings do) but rather they pick items which let them play a certain role which lets them dominate in certain fields.
A CQC player won’t lose his/her CQC skills/playstyle when you equip him with a BR. Actually you even give him/her the possibility to operate effectively outside of his/her niche, make him/her flexible with that.
When you give him/her (H4s) AR you restrict him/her to CQC but at the same time CQC will also become significantly easier for him/her and hence he/she can dominate players in close range who do not have an AR.
So I would say when someone equips an AR in Halo 4 then not because it’s a weapon that complements his/her playstyle but rather because it allows him/her to shred people in CQC with ease.
A (small) selection of overall equally effective utility rifles, in which each complements a different playstyle or different preferences or rather in which you have to personally “master” something specific, in regards to each weapon’s specific mechanics, before being able to use said weapons effectively, is perhaps a suiting loadout concept for Halo.
It’s just a concept though.
> But 9 times out of 10, the BRs, SMGs, Magnums, DMRs are sitting right there available to you within seconds of spawn. Is it that big a deal to start with one in your hands when you can just walk in the safety of your starting base to the same weapon that is resting up against a wall?
It is about the relationship between time and distance traveled. Even though it might only take you 3 seconds to grab that weapon, that is a 3 second head start you are giving the enemy to reach an advantageous position before you. The player is forced to decide which is more important: picking up that weapon or getting to the power position faster.
> @Doogles, I hope when you say “and it has worked in other games” you do not mean H2 nor H3 because all map weps sucked compared to a BR. (outside of power weps)
I was mostly refering to H:CE. Everyone spawned with a pistol and AR. The pistol protected you at every range, but other weapons in close quarters were very powerful. The only time a pistol could take them out is if your aim was impeccable and the other person made errors. Against the sniper, it would ping the sniper out of scope, then if they sniper tried to get the quick scope, he could be punished because you could still hit him and potentially kill him.
The Automatics also has their niche moments. The AR helped with quick camo and had a larger Melee hitbox, the plasma rifle has a slight freezing effect, etc. They each had unique attributes and thus had their own way of being better than other weapons, but everyone spawned able to protect themselves.
> > Give everyone a spawn weapon weapon as stated above, then put the rest of the weapons on the map, but make them unique and let people fight over a more powerful weapon. It’s simple, effective, and it has worked in other games before.
>
> The whole concept of putting other weapons on the map and “fighting” over them doesn’t really sit well with me, especially if they are loadout-style weapons. Sure, the Spartan Laser, Rocket Launcher, whatever, should go in the middle of the map so both sides can fight over one.
The problem is that the weapons in Halo aren’t completely created correctly. No one really fights to pick up an SMG, AR, or other weapons like that. They are weak and really don’t offer much. That is why people argue about starting with them. They can’t protect themselves effectively with those weapons. Instead of having a ton of little weapons like those, make the map pickup weapons more powerful. Make is so they fill a role and weed out the noise. There is no reason why we need an AR, SR, and Suppressor. They are all the same thing. Give each one a unique trait, and make it more powerful in close ranges than the spawning weapon. That way you can play your niche when you get the weapon you really want, but it’s better to be able to protect yourself off the spawn rather than be stuck only being able to fight close range opponents.
> But 9 times out of 10, the BRs, SMGs, Magnums, DMRs are sitting right there available to you within seconds of spawn. Is it that big a deal to start with one in your hands when you can just walk in the safety of your starting base to the same weapon that is resting up against a wall?
What happens after the game has been going on for about 3 minutes and the opposing team is up in your base and your team is spawning out in the open? There are no weapons around, and you will be getting spawn camped because you can’t fight back if you only have an AR that can’t hit at distance and the opposing team has BRs, DMRs, and/or snipers.
> Even if so, you’re not really fighting your own teammates for it, are you? Jockeying for position, maybe, but if we take competition to its logical conclusion, then Halo has no business pitting teammate against teammate, especially when one usually spawns closer to the on-map pickup than someone else.
Honestly, if everyone were to spawn with a competent weapon at the start, then you could even throw on a second weapon since Spartans hold two anyways, and there is no real reason to argue about anything with any teammate unless you both want a specific power weapon like sniper or rockets. Then it’s whomever gets there first.
The whole thought behind this is to make it so casual players can easily go from the social/casual playlists to the ranked/competitive playlists and still have it feel like the same game. I understand not everyone is the best with the BR or the sniper, but leaving them with a weak gun isn’t the solution. They should have the most useful gun that way, when they die, they aren’t punished by getting a crap gun that can only fight in one range. They can get a gun they can use at all ranges and they are then going to get better with it and become a better player just because they play.
> A system similar to what he states here wouldn’t work due to the fact that long range has more power over map flow.
And the map dictates which weapons are effective and which not, hence the map dictates the flow and not the weapons.
Playing on maps with weapons which are not meant for them and as a result negatively affect the intendend flow is a different discussion though.
> If the DMR gets a loadout like this it will turn into a situation like Reach and Hemorrhage where the DMR forced people to stick to the outside of the map, completely ruining the flow of that map.
When likely more than 90% of the map is nothing more than open space and the only covered pathways are at the edge of the map, then people will naturally (be forced to) use them.
You cannot tell me that people would suddenly run through the big open field on the “Blood Gulch maps” when everyone would just spawn with ARs or BRs. They would of course not have to fear getting picked up by DMRs but still by vehicles or the sniper or that they simply get spotted.
And what flow? The only flow on that map is “pushing back and forth” with the goal to push the enemy with its back against the wall to start spawn killing and DMRs haven’t changed that.
I would argue the map has never had a good flow or generally good design in the first place.