'Press a button and get away'

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Can I ask why this is even a valid argument? Seriously??

I have seen this argument brought up almost everywhere Sprint is concerned and I have to just say one thing about that; You press a button for everything. You press a button to jump into a vehicle, you press a button to shoot, you press a button to throw a grenade, you press a button to crouch. LITERALLY you press a button for practically everything save for normal movement (even if that is still a command on the same controller).

So that being said, why is this even a valid argument against sprint? You still have to maneuver yourself much as you would whilst normally moving or strafing, it’s still the same stick. Furthermore, you have to press a button to even shoot or do practically anything else, so why does having a button to another feature matter in this argument if you are just pressing a button for everything else anyway?
Honestly…I don’t understand the community and their reasons to complain sometimes, as I stated in another topic; At least the map rescaling argument is debate worthy.

2

What is a valid argument, however, is that to combat the fact that sprint makes maps artificially smaller, the proportions of maps are stretched out.

The distances between points of cover, how long ramps are, width of doorways, etc, are all scaled upwards with sprint in mind. In previous Halo games that did not feature sprint, you were always able to shoot and move at a reasonable pace with no preventative rest periods between (where in order to move at an adequate speed you are forced to not fire your weapon with sprint). This is most evident when you compare the same map across multiple Halo titles. Halo 3’s Heretic and Halo Reach’s Zealot are comparably tiny to the enormously proportioned Halo 5’s Truth, which was designed to have longer distances between points of cover and areas that are connected by ramps.

As a direct result in Halo 3 you were able to always shoot and move, but in Halo 5 you’re forced to sprint in order to cover the same relative distance on a map that has been heavily tweaked to combat how sprint makes maps smaller. If you lifted sprint from Halo 5 and forced it into Halo 3, it would completely break Heretic.

Protip: focusing on one bad argument doesn’t invalidate others.

3

The argument isn’t “it is bad because you press a button” but “the amount of effort required to flee/retreat successfully or rather with a high success rate gets decreased to simply aiming to the exit and pressing the (sprint) button”.

A similar example would be: to protect yourself from damage via armor lock it is enough to simply press the AA button in the right time. It really doesn’t require much effort/skill to perform that and hence a bad player can as successfully dodge damage with AL as a good player. Same basically applies to sprint.

So the “button-pressing-argument” is about the effort it requires to perform certain actions with sprint and not the button-pressing itself.

4

In his defence, he wasn’t. The press button to escape argument is ludicrous since FPSes always have mostly one button inputs. You want a command-specialist game, try the fighting genre.

The dilemma regarding maps still presents a great challenge though.

5

> 2533274881015020;2:
> What is a valid argument, however, is that to combat the fact that sprint makes maps artificially smaller that the proportions of maps and their designed to be stretched out.
>
> The distances between points of cover, how long ramps are, width of doorways, etc, are all scaled upwards with sprint in mind. In previous Halo games that did not feature sprint, you were always able to shoot and move at a reasonable pace with no preventative rest periods between (where in order to move at an adequate speed you are forced to not fire your weapon with sprint). This is most evident when you compare the same map across multiple Halo titles. Halo 3’s Heretic and Halo Reach’s Zealot are comparably tiny to the enormously proportioned Halo 5’s Truth, which was designed to have longer distances between points of cover and areas that are connected by ramps.
>
> As a direct result in Halo 3 you were able to always shoot and move, but in Halo 5 you’re forced to sprint in order to cover the same relative distance on a map that has been heavily tweaked to combat how sprint makes maps smaller. If you lifted sprint from Halo 5 and forced it into Halo 3, it would completely break Heretic.
>
> Protip: focusing on one bad argument doesn’t invalidate others.

> 2533274965837334;3:
> The argument isn’t “it is bad because you press a button” but “the amount of effort required to flee/retreat successfully or rather with a high success rate gets decreased to simply aiming to the exit and pressing the (sprint) button”.
>
> A similar example would be: to protect yourself from damage via armor lock it is enough to simply press the AA button in the right time. It really doesn’t require much effort/skill to perform that and hence a bad player can as successfully dodge damage with AL as a good player. Same basically applies to sprint.
>
> So the “button-pressing-argument” is about the effort it requires to perform certain actions with sprint and not the button-pressing itself.

See, at least THESE are valid arguments that SUPPLEMENT the idea of it, rather than just saying ‘Press a button and you get away’; Thank you both for your insightful comments.
On the flip side, however…

@Majatek:
True enough that focusing on one bad argument doesn’t invalidate others, I was just tired of THIS argument being made with no relevant back up like you and Swift supplied.

At the same time, going back to ‘Truth’ and it’s scaling. It has ramps and open areas, so why does it matter if you have to sprint? Can you not just strafe in the open areas and shoot at others. Sure enough they might turn tail and run behind cover, but wasn’t this similar to what was done on Heretic and Zealot? Hell, speaking of Zealot; They had Sprint for that map and it was proportioned relatively the same as Heretic. (Sure it was done sporadically rather than constantly, but regardless…) If it’s such an issue, why not have teammates flank the other sides or prepare for such a move to be able to combat it?

@Swift 806:
Again, I thank you and Majatek for providing much BETTER supplement reasoning or at least better arguments than what was originally inquired about.

At the same time; It requires you to aim and keep your aim on an opponent with shooting, with grenades it requires you to judge or understand the distance your grenade will go and arching it correctly to meet the adequate distance and target, and so on and so forth. Really there isn’t that much effort or skill put into doing any of those actions, it’s the end result and skill of the individual that matters in those regards.

Sprint is similar to that end. You could just say they would point to an exit and press a button but if anyone attacking that fleeing individual is worth their say in skill, they would see the movement towards the door or the change in direction and would proceed to counter it by sprinting first to melee from behind or by throwing a grenade ahead of them. It still requires skill to sprint as it requires the player to have the reaction time to effectively dodge an encounter or escape from it, and the from there the instinct and skill to dodge incoming fire or break off from the engagement to get to a better position to counter ambush or attack the other player with grenades or lead him to an area full of your teammates.

Sure it requires less skill at dodging than the normal speed does, but it still requires it or else you’re just a target still that ends up getting themselves caught in a trap or shot in the back of the head.

6

> 2533274856560133;5:
> True enough that focusing on one bad argument doesn’t invalidate others, I was just tired of THIS argument being made with no relevant back up like you and Swift supplied.
>
> At the same time, going back to ‘Truth’ and it’s scaling. It has ramps and open areas, so why does it matter if you have to sprint? Can you not just strafe in the open areas and shoot at others. Sure enough they might turn tail and run behind cover, but wasn’t this similar to what was done on Heretic and Zealot? Hell, speaking of Zealot; They had Sprint for that map and it was proportioned relatively the same as Heretic. (Sure it was done sporadically rather than constantly, but regardless…) If it’s such an issue, why not have teammates flank the other sides or prepare for such a move to be able to combat it?

I gotcha. Just made sure that I had that said in case anyone came along and didn’t keep other arguments in mind.

The point is you end up strafing for longer times between positions of cover. In order to get to the cover as fast as you did before, you’re forced to put down your gun if you want to sprint to it. Halo Reach’s maps were designed to play somewhere in the middle. Not every player spawned with sprint always, and as a result if the maps were made to be too huge, it would severely impact on gameplay for those who didn’t use sprint (or otherwise couldn’t due to gametype restrictions). The described “map bloat”, however, does start with Halo Reach’s Zealot - just not so extreme as Halo 5’s Truth.

7

> 2533274881015020;6:
> > 2533274856560133;5:
> > True enough that focusing on one bad argument doesn’t invalidate others, I was just tired of THIS argument being made with no relevant back up like you and Swift supplied.
> >
> > At the same time, going back to ‘Truth’ and it’s scaling. It has ramps and open areas, so why does it matter if you have to sprint? Can you not just strafe in the open areas and shoot at others. Sure enough they might turn tail and run behind cover, but wasn’t this similar to what was done on Heretic and Zealot? Hell, speaking of Zealot; They had Sprint for that map and it was proportioned relatively the same as Heretic. (Sure it was done sporadically rather than constantly, but regardless…) If it’s such an issue, why not have teammates flank the other sides or prepare for such a move to be able to combat it?
>
>
>
> I gotcha. Just made sure that I had that said in case anyone came along and didn’t keep other arguments in mind.
>
> The point is you end up strafing for longer times between positions of cover. In order to get to the cover as fast as you did before, you’re forced to put down your gun if you want to sprint to it. Halo Reach’s maps were designed to play somewhere in the middle. Not every player spawned with sprint always, and as a result if the maps were made to be too huge, it would severely impact on gameplay for those who didn’t use sprint (or otherwise couldn’t due to gametype restrictions). The described “map bloat”, however, does start with Halo Reach’s Zealot - just not so extreme as Halo 5’s Truth.

So if they bloat it, the idea of getting to cover while laying down cover fire is ruined. If they don’t, maps become -Yoink!- broken. There is no winning in this situation, eh?

Of course, you would say just remove sprint, but I get the feeling by this time, 343 has a solid vision that they are willing to stick through, for better or for worse be -Yoink!-.

Off-topic: Is your education in game design? Cos you really seem to know your -Yoink-

8

> 2533274873310828;7:
> So if they bloat it, the idea of getting to cover while laying down cover fire is ruined. If they don’t, maps become -Yoink!- broken. There is no winning in this situation, eh?

Unfortunately that is the case, which is why the debate is such a heated one.

> 2533274873310828;7:
> Of course, you would say just remove sprint, but I get the feeling by this time, 343 has a solid vision that they are willing to stick through, for better or for worse be -Yoink!-.

They’ve stuck with sprint for 3 Halo titles now, so sprint will most likely stay as far as I can see. It’d still be nice if 343industries tried adding abilities that weren’t so conflicting with Halo’s mechanics and map design, hence why I oppose sprint.

> 2533274873310828;7:
> Off-topic: Is your education in game design? Cos you really seem to know your -Yoink-

Indeed, I took a course in interactive multimedia during my College years (along with a course in IT, but that fell through because I just couldn’t get on top of the workload due to a lack in interest towards the end) and a specialised course specifically in game design at University. I’m almost 24 and I’m already feeling old. :stuck_out_tongue:

To be 100% truthful, though, I’m adamant that my specialty lies in marketing. I like to keep on top of the progress of technology, and I like talking about it, so I’m aiming to get a job in retail. Selling phones or computers, perhaps. We’ll see.

9

> 2533274856560133;5:
> @Swift 806:
> Again, I thank you and Majatek for providing much BETTER supplement reasoning or at least better arguments than what was originally inquired about.
>
> At the same time; It requires you to aim and keep your aim on an opponent with shooting, with grenades it requires you to judge or understand the distance your grenade will go and arching it correctly to meet the adequate distance and target, and so on and so forth. Really there isn’t that much effort or skill put into doing any of those actions, it’s the end result and skill of the individual that matters in those regards.
>
> Sprint is similar to that end. You could just say they would point to an exit and press a button but if anyone attacking that fleeing individual is worth their say in skill, they would see the movement towards the door or the change in direction and would proceed to counter it by sprinting first to melee from behind or by throwing a grenade ahead of them. It still requires skill to sprint as it requires the player to have the reaction time to effectively dodge an encounter or escape from it, and the from there the instinct and skill to dodge incoming fire or break off from the engagement to get to a better position to counter ambush or attack the other player with grenades or lead him to an area full of your teammates.
>
> Sure it requires less skill at dodging than the normal speed does, but it still requires it or else you’re just a target still that ends up getting themselves caught in a trap or shot in the back of the head.

You’re welcome.

Your first argument is a paradox though. Saying all the actions do not require any actual skill, yet it is obviously quite difficult for the individual to perform actions like for example 100 % accurate shooting on moving targets while moving yourself.

It is also irrelevant to argue that an individual can still have the skill to outplay/kill a player who is retreating with sprint when the point is that defensive play does suddenly require much less effort (aiming to exit press button) than offensive play (keeping the reticle on a fast moving target, throwing a grenade into the sprinting players path, etc), obviously.

It does of course still require a certain amount of effort to perform actions with sprint, but my point was never that it wouldn’t do that, but just like you mentioned as well, it requires (significantly) less skill to perform said actions than it does with the regular base speed, what is the conclusion of the “press-button-argument”.

10

> 2533274881015020;8:
> > 2533274873310828;7:
> > So if they bloat it, the idea of getting to cover while laying down cover fire is ruined. If they don’t, maps become -Yoink!- broken. There is no winning in this situation, eh?
>
>
>
> Unfortunately that is the case, which is why the debate is such a heated one.
>
>
> > 2533274873310828;7:
> > Of course, you would say just remove sprint, but I get the feeling by this time, 343 has a solid vision that they are willing to stick through, for better or for worse be -Yoink!-.
>
>
>
> They’ve stuck with sprint for 3 Halo titles now, so sprint will most likely stay as far as I can see. It’d still be nice if 343industries tried adding abilities that weren’t so conflicting with Halo’s mechanics and map design, hence why I oppose sprint.
>
>
> > 2533274873310828;7:
> > Off-topic: Is your education in game design? Cos you really seem to know your -Yoink-
>
>
> Indeed, I took a course in interactive multimedia during my College years (along with a course in IT, but that fell through because I just couldn’t get on top of the workload due to a lack in interest towards the end) and a specialised course specifically in game design at University. I’m almost 24 and I’m already feeling old. :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> To be 100% truthful, though, I’m adamant that my specialty lies in marketing. I like to keep on top of the progress of technology, and I like talking about it, so I’m aiming to get a job in retail. Selling phones or computers, perhaps. We’ll see.

Being a young 18-year old animation student, I guess I get more invested on the graphic and story side of things, hence my apprehension at discussing game mechanics, which is clearly something that my study doesn’t cover.
On that note, I’ll say Halo 4 looked a lot like Mass Effect, which got a bit weird at first. I hope 343 treats the aesthetics further, but that may be just 343’s style in comparison to Bungie’s.
OT: I just hope that no matter what problems sprint may bring, the big design still remains solid. For now, I think that’s the most important thing.

11

> 2533274881015020;2:
> What is a valid argument, however, is that to combat the fact that sprint makes maps artificially smaller, the proportions of maps are stretched out.
>
> The distances between points of cover, how long ramps are, width of doorways, etc, are all scaled upwards with sprint in mind. In previous Halo games that did not feature sprint, you were always able to shoot and move at a reasonable pace with no preventative rest periods between (where in order to move at an adequate speed you are forced to not fire your weapon with sprint). This is most evident when you compare the same map across multiple Halo titles. Halo 3’s Heretic and Halo Reach’s Zealot are comparably tiny to the enormously proportioned Halo 5’s Truth, which was designed to have longer distances between points of cover and areas that are connected by ramps.
>
> As a direct result in Halo 3 you were able to always shoot and move, but in Halo 5 you’re forced to sprint in order to cover the same relative distance on a map that has been heavily tweaked to combat how sprint makes maps smaller. If you lifted sprint from Halo 5 and forced it into Halo 3, it would completely break Heretic.
>
> Protip: focusing on one bad argument doesn’t invalidate others.

Protip, Sprint, when implemented well, does not have to artificially mess with map sizes.

12

If it’s not orginal to halo it bad. Simple as that. Not 1 new halo feature has been adopted well to the community. AAs, equipment, dual weilding (good reason tho), ect all received mass complaints. Only legit argument against sprint is map size.

13

> 2533274808571422;11:
> Protip, Sprint, when implemented well, does not have to artificially mess with map sizes.

Sprint’s fundamental design shortens distances. Maps as a direct result have to be designed with that in mind. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

14

lol

15

> 2533274965837334;9:
> Your first argument is a paradox though. Saying all the actions do not require any actual skill, yet it is obviously quite difficult for the individual to perform actions like for example 100 % accurate shooting on moving targets while moving yourself.
>
> It is also irrelevant to argue that an individual can still have the skill to outplay/kill a player who is retreating with sprint when the point is that defensive play does suddenly require much less effort (aiming to exit press button) than offensive play (keeping the reticle on a fast moving target, throwing a grenade into the sprinting players path, etc), obviously.
>
> It does of course still require a certain amount of effort to perform actions with sprint, but my point was never that it wouldn’t do that, but just like you mentioned as well, it requires (significantly) less skill to perform said actions than it does with the regular base speed, what is the conclusion of the “press-button-argument”.

I could be difficult to shoot moving targets whilst moving yourself, however I don’t necessarily find this to be an issue. Some others might, however, I’ve seen it done so many times versus someone standing still and shooting that I don’t see this as a problem.

It’s not, if you can navigate the map, get around the target, or keep up with the target then that would make the effort in trying to defensively play against such skill much harder. When you are escaping the individual, it’s not just a matter of aiming towards the exit and pressing a button, it’s also trying to navigate the hallways (if indoors), dodging enemy fire to get to a cover point (if indoors/outdoors), and navigating the map to get to a better position (if outdoors, or in a large open area). Whilst you do this, you are also keeping an eye on your mini-map for anyone following or anyone coming up on you if you sprint a certain direction and preparing for either of those, making a conscious quick decision to either break off the sprint and start fighting or to change direction if you have the option.

While it does require less skill to perform said actions than it does with regular base speed, that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a good thing. Halo 2’s and 3’s base speed is daunting now-a-days. Raising the base speed COULD help, but really, I think sprint would be best kept in the game with shooting still apart of the equasion; I think, however, that the sway and inability to scope in or aim in should be added since, whilst sprinting, it would be hard to even keep your accuracy.

16

> 2533274856560133;15:
> I could be difficult to shoot moving targets whilst moving yourself, however I don’t necessarily find this to be an issue. Some others might, however, I’ve seen it done so many times versus someone standing still and shooting that I don’t see this as a problem.
>
> It’s not, if you can navigate the map, get around the target, or keep up with the target then that would make the effort in trying to defensively play against such skill much harder. When you are escaping the individual, it’s not just a matter of aiming towards the exit and pressing a button, it’s also trying to navigate the hallways (if indoors), dodging enemy fire to get to a cover point (if indoors/outdoors), and navigating the map to get to a better position (if outdoors, or in a large open area). Whilst you do this, you are also keeping an eye on your mini-map for anyone following or anyone coming up on you if you sprint a certain direction and preparing for either of those, making a conscious quick decision to either break off the sprint and start fighting or to change direction if you have the option.
>
> While it does require less skill to perform said actions than it does with regular base speed, that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a good thing. Halo 2’s and 3’s base speed is daunting now-a-days. Raising the base speed COULD help, but really, I think sprint would be best kept in the game with shooting still apart of the equasion; I think, however, that the sway and inability to scope in or aim in should be added since, whilst sprinting, it would be hard to even keep your accuracy.

So you mean it isn’t difficult for yourself to do that but you are aware of the fact that it is difficult for a lot of individuals to do that?
However, the point is that some individuals are significantly more successful with aiming and strafing individually as well as aiming and strafing simultaneously than others because it requires quite a bunch of skill to pull that of successfully. An amount of skill not everyone has.
On the other hand the success rate of sprint, armor lock or the rocket launcher is generally almost equally high for all kinds of individuals by default because there isn’t much you could inherently do wrong with these abilities/weapons that would eventually result in a failure. That is why you are also often read the statement that an ability like sprint lacks substance/depth in its design.

“Aiming for the exit and pressing the sprint button” is what eventually stands below the line.
It isn’t like the points you mentioned like navigating around the map, positioning, keeping an eye on your surroundings/motion sensor, etc. don’t apply to the attacker as well.
In the end, below the line, the offensive player has to try to kill a fast moving small target with which he/she cannot keep up on combat speed (base movement) while the defensive player has to aim to the most profitable direction while getting the desired evasive movement/speed via a simple button push.
Therefore, saying successfully sprinting away in Halo takes as much skill (or rather almost as much) as successfully killing a player who is retreating by using sprint is like saying getting a kill with a rocket launcher is as difficult as preventing to getting killed by an enemy who has one. It is simply not true.

Why is it not necessarily a good thing to have more balance between offensive and defensive gameplay like you had in past Halos than you have nowadays?
I would like to ask you to elaborate on that because you haven’t done so.
That the old base movement and pace might feel daunting has nothing to do with said balance.