POLL: Should the Weapon Sandbox be Pure?

Games Halo Infinite
21

@commando544 the AR is a default weapon, I think you are giving it too much credit here comparing it to a power weapon.

This would be like saying the BR and Sniper Rifle are the same.

Edit: I get what you are saying, in a Pure Sandbox the SAW is too similar to the AR, which is a valid point. With 22 weapons in the game already I think that arguement can be made with almost any new addition though. Unless we are willing to expand the Sandbox to include similar weapons with different levels of power you will be hard pressed to add any new weapons to the game (which is fine if you prefer a pure sandbox). I guess this is really the purpose of the poll.

22

Twas a joke, fren, if you want a serious response, the SAW outpreforms the AR in every aspect and has a higher mag capacity for sustained fire.

Lot easier to tear through anything with a SAW than an AR. That’s why it’s classified as a power weapon and the AR isn’t.

1 Like
23

You already know, some overlap is ok for me. Because if 343 leans 2 far toward uniqueness, then let me ask you this: Why do we have 2 shock guns in the game? They both EMP and chain damage. Why not just have the Shock Rifle and scrap the Disruptor?

Exactly. This is why some people LOVE the Carbine or DMR.

1 Like
24

The Fuel rod cannon is also not at all the same if you consider Halo 2-Reach versions of the game because it bounces once.
Rather than what you were saying the cinder shot dose bounce but it is way more bouncy and you can control the projectile and the M1 Spanker is an big explosion and very instant. But if its the Halo: CE version is just a spanker with weight and is weaker.

It really depends on what you consider “different” from one another.

The same concept also goes for BR and carbine it depends.

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25

Rather than the Brute PR, the Elite PR would be more diverse and for the needler rifle it depends on how they make it if they did it like reach’s yeah but if it was more like the needler than it would be more diverse.

And the brute shot is not at all the hydra its more like if the cinder shot was not a power weapon.

The saw would be not very diverse and the carbine is more like the stalker rifle

26

You should have as many guns as possible.

Once the UNSC Weapons have all bases covered you’re only left with weird and wacky weapons that won’t get used. Campaign and multiplayer.

It also limits campaign and PVE. This leads to the Banished using UNSC guns and Banished guns on sentinels. That’s not good.

You also just end up with a smaller pool of weapons generally as every you’re essentially wasting effort reinventing the wheel.

27

Doesn’t make it a good addition, if the only reason for adding a clone gun with better stats is “it kills better” then your sandbox is shallow.

28

No, you shouldn’t. You should strive for a focused sandbox where every gun has it’s place and role to fill rather than 30 copies of the same gun with a different skin and a minor stat difference. More guns with unique attributes and mechanics outside of just raw killing power are needed.

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29

I would generally agree that some overlap is essential, especially in the case of the bulldog and classic shotgun.

There’s definitely unhealthy overlap too, like Halo 4’s carbon copied Promethean weapons (the badness of which were overblown by their frequent availability and general superiority), but I do think there’s benefit to be had from more options in moderation.

3 Likes
30

@Tzar_Moramee it’s all open to interpretation, unique spins can be out on existing weapons or legacy weapons, I didn’t go into too much detail here for simplicity sake.

I feel like the Brute Plasma Rifle has the potential to be a unique Tier 1 SMG. It could kill fast like the Sentinel Beam but rather than a beam it shoots plasma projectiles and it would overheat quickly which keeps it a Tier 1 weapon. The classic plasma rifle is basically just an AR that shoots plasma.

I’ve had previous discussions about how in order to keep the Sandbox unique, the Hydra could just be tweaked to work more like the Brute Shot instead of adding the Brute Shot (the Hydra could use an improvment like this).

The Carbine is more like a semi auto BR than the Stalker Rifle, it takes 8 shots to kill and shoots faster while the Stalker is a 3 shot kill, essentially a Marksman Rifle. But yes design wise the Carbine could be considered too similar.

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31

@commando544 I have to agree. When the UNSC had a role for every single weapon I pretty much only used these weapons in Campaign, this is my own personal thing but I always preferred UNSC weapons when fighting the covenant, seem more immersive.

That not having a DMR gives me a reason to use the Stalker Rifle in campaign, just one example of a good campaign gun.

1 Like
32

I kinda of wish they’d find a way to implement the FRC’s dead man’s switch from H:CE campaign. Ya know, where you’d kill a grunt and the gun would explode afterwards. That could be interesting from a Multiplayer perspective since it would put more emphasis on getting the gun from the pad.

I can even imagine a cool interaction with the “Drop Weapon” mechanic and the Repulsor. It would bring a knew meaning to the “Hold This” medal.

2 Likes
33

Yeah H4 Promethean guns were uninspired. The Suppressor offered nothing knew and was just a horrible AR.

The Light Rifle actually was on the cusp of something great, but didn’t double down. I loved the idea of a gun becoming more power when scoped, but the difference between the fire modes wasn’t enough. H5’s was better IMO. What I would have like to was the Light Rifle behave like a BR when unscoped (burst fire, headshots, etc), but when scoped in, it fires a single, concentrated blast akin to a sniper rifle (this uses a very large amount of ammo), and maybe it has the Binary Rifle’s laser sight for balancing.

For Halo Infinite, this idea could have been applied to the Stalker Rifle (a combination between a Carbine and the Beam Rifle).

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34

Adding an LMG that allows for more opportunities that still caters to a familiar style is not “shallow”… at least not when we’re talking about a sandbox with a plasma pistol that currently fills such a niche market of only popping shields which is pretty much the exact same job of the pulse carbine, and a disruptor pistol that just does what the plasma pistol used to, but worse, and the ravager, a gun I seldom see people use because there are so many better alternatives regardless of whatever “role” it has.

Just because they both are “clones” doesn’t mean it won’t improve the sandbox as the SAW in particular can
-Tear through lighter vehicles, something only the sniper, skewer, and hydra do effectively.

  • Allow for an automatic mid range power weapon, which, we currently have no full auto power weapons, the closest thing being the CQC bulldog under technicalities
  • Be an LMG, a weapon type we don’t have despite having 3 snipers. S7, Shock Rifle, Skewer (for some reason)

It doesn’t have to be a special snowflake to be a good addition. Especially when we’re talking about power weapons, it just needs to be an upgrade, and killing things faster is a pretty solid factor in determining that.

Now, should 343 focus on adding things we don’t have? Yes, better to expand the sandbox in a meaningful way than say, adding the boltshot which would be another glorified mangler and a 3rd shotty. But they don’t need to jump through hoops making a gun just so they can say that it does something other guns can’t.

1 Like
35

@Windjammer19 I love this idea for the Fuel Rod Cannon, genius addition to the sandbox really, a power weapon that detonates after death, that’s unique!

I agree the promethean weapons over did it I’m glad we’ve taken a step back a bit in Halo Infinite to get a feel for the sandbox again.

Halo 5’s Suppressor interests me as a Tier 1 AR, I like the idea of a weapon that gets deadlier the longer it was fired because the fire rate increased.

The Light Rifle could still be a unique addition as well, I think having different firing modes depending on aim is still unique. I imagine the scoped fire of the light rifle to be a Beam (like the Focus Rifle) or a Beam Burst (like the Shock Rifle or Binary Rifle, while unscoped would be single fire like a DMR or Carbine. If the Beam burst was a 2 burst kill it would actually be a more balanced marksman rifle to pair with the Stalker Rifle than the Shock Rifle (if someone wanted to make the Shock Rifle a counterpart to the S7 Sniper).

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36

Option 3 to a certain extent.

I like variety, but as long as it does make weapon balancing a pain in the -Yoink!-.

Like Destiny.

37

& @commando544

So I’m actually in agreement with our friend Commando here.

Over the years, the UNSC has had 4 major “bullet hose” weapons. The AR, the SMG, the Chaingun, and the SAW.

The AR is the default, Master Chief gun. It’s not going anywhere and should be used as the baseline for how strong autos should perform.

The SMG, functionally was almost identical to the AR, the only differences were that it performed better in CQC, and it could be dual-wielded (now a removed feature). There’s also ammo capacity, but the fact of the matter is that the SMG was similar enough to the AR that it actually replaced it in Halo 2. I did prefer it in H5 over the AR though.

The Chaingun is on the opposite end of the spectrum. It’s a very large gun with a lot of power and eat spartans and vehicles for breakfast. The main trait (and drawback) is that it functions as a 3rd gun (not unlike dual-wielding). So you can’t move full speed, sprint, slide, throw grenades, use equipment, or swap guns with out dropping the gun. I think this is a good trade off for such a powerful weapon. 1 positive trait is that it has unlimited ammo while mounted, but it leaves you stationary.

Which bring us to the SAW…
Its power rivals the Chaingun, but it has none of the drawbacks. A SAW user can slide around the corner, stick you with a grenade and grapple away without ever dropping their gun.

Shanesaw, you said it’s a power weapon (it is and it should be strong), but is this the sort of power weapon that we want in Halo? I think it’s also important for a gun to also be fun to fight against.

Compare it to other tier-3 guns:

  • Rockets: have low ammo, long reload, can kill the user, travel time (which makes them harder to use at range), and with introduction of the Repulsor, Infinite’s Rocket Launcher might be the weakest it’s ever been. Finally, the enemy can still play around a rocket-user by staying on the high ground to make the shot harder.
  • Sniper: super hard to use, low ammo, descope, weaker in CQC, and enemies can strafe to avoid being killed.
  • Sword: Only useful in melee range, sword blocking used to be a thing.

The SAW’s only weakness is that bloom makes it weaker at range, but that can be alleviated with burst firing (which is a skill, so if players learn to play around that, that’s not really the fault of the gun).

38

@Nohr_Tenko well said, and this is my thoughts as well on why the SAW would be a unique addition.

I want to talk about the Commando, what is it? The Sidekick kills faster, the AR is easier to use, and the BR beats it at range. Why did we need a 3rd UNSC Assault / Tactical Rifle if all 3 are going to try be balanced Tier 1 weapons?

What if the Commando was changes to a Tier 2 weapon and buffed to a 7 shot kill instead of 8 and the magazine was increased to 21 from 20? This would give the UNSC a tier 2 Kinetic rifle and it would free the Commando up from needing to be balanced with the AR, Sidekick and BR. IMO this would make more sense for the Commando.

1 Like
39

Personally, I feel the argument that overlapping niches becomes moot once you realize that not every map features every weapon, even with Halo 5’s massive sandbox.

Provided each map doesn’t incorporate too many overlapping archetypes, then there really is no issue. Plus, it’d enrichen the map diversity by expanding the number of playstyles.

Go nuts, really.

3 Likes
40

@Windjammer19 all fair points, I’m going to ask for your help here - how could the SAW play be more balanced?

In games like Call of Duty, LMG’s hamper mobility… a tradeoff of firepower for mobility. Like you said Halo does this with the Heavy detachable turrents… but we aren’t going to hamper mobility for regular handheld weapon. The other thing games do is they give LMG’s innacurate hip fire and slow ADS so the reaction time is slower for LMG’s. I wondered about making the SAW require you to zoom in order to have accuracy, a draw back compared to the AR possibly.

Lastly the SAW does not need to be too powerful. The AR is already a respectable gun, if the SAW had a slightly faster TTK then the AR that would already be a powerful weapon, but the real bonus would be the SAW has a large ammo capacity. So maybe the real power aspect of the SAW is that it can be constantly fired without needing to reload right away? Something honestly no other handheld weapon has in the game.

Any additional ideas or feedback to this?

Edit: maybe the SAW could be combined with the suppressors firing mode? It doesnt have to be the SAW it could be a new LMG weapom, a gun that has a slow starting rate of fire but once it is firing it has a fast TTK which gives you a chance vs multiple enemies?

2 Likes