Pls take time to read this: Halo's skillgap

Skill=/=Difficulty

Edit: took this part out since it caused people to stray from topic.

I don’t need to play halo 4 to know these characteristics are bad, ive played with these in reach and I know they are bad. All im saying is halo 4 will be worse than the trilogy <mark>if</mark> it doesn’t have these traits…

<mark>MULTITASKING</mark>
Its simple as this, the more a player must take into account, the more smarts it takes, so the skillgap is made larger(although its not the only characteristic). So these things such as A As and perks will be good right? Not necessarily, and here’s why.

Functions and objects that SEEM to increase the options/opportunities of gameplay may be the exact opposite. I don’t think anyone wants to dispute that more vhoices takes a smarter, quick minded person to keep track of.

Lets look at jetpack as an example. Lets say there was a building with 3 bridges or ramps to the top, all having a certain advantage and a certain disadvantage if you take them. There’s 3 options here, with difficulty in choosing correctly. What happens when you throw jetpack into the mix? The pathways become useless, the viable choices are eliminated, due to how easily the jetpack has access to the top. There is now a one-way-rules-all function, and we add one element at the almost complete cost of 3.

It doesn’t have to be in the way of maps or jetpack either. Lets look at the new flag no-dropping function. People say “its harder to capture the flag, that makes the game more competitive”. Well that’s simply not true. Hardness is a component, not a definition of competitiveness. This severely limit’s the options a player has to them, removing the decision making skill. The fewer tools a player has to use, <mark>the fewer ways a player can differentiate themselves (and thus become more skillful) from a worse player.</mark>

Lets look at this in the way of say, shotguns in mlg. They would hardly be the rule all weapon with the right settings. They would increase the options for gameplay. Since the sniper and dmr are harder to use, the shotgun should have a very small niche of course, but still be viable. The skill would be in positioning with it and the simple more factors = better gameplay rule. (funfact- a large portion of mlg community wants shotguns in maps)

<mark>BABYSITTING</mark>
A game function should never do the job of a player. Vengeance, the new waypoint on flag, ProV, etc, all do the job of a player, which is locating the enemy. This was perfectly doable in the past, with skill and knowledge of maps. This is an insult to people who have invested their skills in being sneaky or other diversion techniques. (radar does this too)

Look at something like aim assist, it ,literally, aims for the player. People can acknowledge this right away, the more the game does FOR you, the less competitive it is.

<mark>IMPROVEMENT</mark>
Difficulty IS good for gameplay. Its just like I said, it’s a component and not the definition. Although extremely important, and necessary, it should take backseat to the other 2 options.

Lets look at strafing as the example here. Personally, I cant think of one reason we cant have the best strafe in halo 4 out of any game, ever. It would undoubtedly make the game harder, and I think people would enjoy the freedom of motion.

<mark>PUNISH FOR MISTAKES</mark>
There is a right way to do everything. The further one deviates from this, the worse they should do. What do I mean? Largely I mean the kill times in halo. They’ve simply became too long, and are even lengthening more WITH the inclusion of sprint. This frankly surprised me. There is a right way to move around the map, to run the flag, or to flee from an enemy. The further one deviates from this correct way of doing things, the more they should be punished. The longer kill times are, the less it matters. In reach, with bloom, slow kill times, and sprint, it almost didn’t matter at all. You could make the biggest mistake of your life in terms of map positioning, or someone could sneak up behind you, and you still had like a 70% chance of fleeing if they just had a DMR or AR. This simply isn’t right.

There are a lot of good players out there in halo, who simply may not be the best aimers but are very sneaky. We should not rob them of a skill set just to make the game easier for new players.

I personally wish there was stopping power like in CE , it would function great with sprint in my opinion. Get to the fight super quick, but if you mess up, your stuck. Personally I love it in counterstrike. I quickly learned to not over-push myself and realize my mistakes.

Im not advocating for instant kill times. Im thinking of somewhere between halo 1(0.6s) and halo 2(1.5). I think a 1.2 ks would be best. That way you could be punished for messing up, but still have a lot of gunplay involved.

<mark>NO SCOTT-FREES</mark>
There should never be a skill that takes 5 minutes to leanr that makes up for a deficiency in other skills that take months if not years.

Oddball throwing may or may not fall victim to this in Halo 4, it depends if the maps oddball is played on. If theres an off-boundrry map where you can simply throw the ball to make it reset every time your team dies to the better team, it will be skilless. The team wont be punished for losing the ball, and while theyre respawning it will just be sitting exposed in the middle of the map, almost as if they never lost it. I could see it working well on a map like ratsnest, but not maps like guardian.

<mark>REWARD THE BETTER PLAYER</mark>
Functions should NEVER give a bigger defense bonus than offense. The main culprits of this are armor lock, HLS, sprint (reach’s), and things like a bubble shield. The reason is simple: a better player will need to use these less. Lets use armor lock as an example. A good player in a game will need to use AL less to save his life than a bad player. Consequently it helps a bad player more than a good player, as these can only be used to null an attack rather than launch one of your own. Therefore the bad player is put closer to the good player, simply because of the gameplay function.

Im not saying that just because you sit back and don’t rush you’re a defensive player, its quite the opposite in some cases. A nade trap is an example of a passive/offensive play. Cover fire is an example of aggressive/defensive play.

I was really psyched about the possibility of the thruster for mlg for strafing, but now you cant shoot while its done and it largely becomes a defense-only capability…

Lets not forget that all of these rules take a backseat to the obvious rules such as:

-No randomness. This is why bloom and spread should never return.

-Balance (this adds more viable options, so more a player needs to factor in)

-Equal opportunity starts (I mean in terms of options, CSGO has balanced options which I feel is competitive, however I don’t like it, which is my opinion) The new ranking system is a disgrace and a insult to what halo used to stand for. Just because I play more, I should not have an advantage.

-Risk = reward (e.g: AR should have a niche, but shouldnt be superior to precision weps, since its easier to use)

Quick recap of things h4 needs

Many options to make good plays with
Difficulty in improving
No “babysitting”
No defensive only functions
Punishments for bad plays - no freebees
The obvious rules

Don’t get me wrong, im going to love things like auto turrets for infection. Its going to be sick when someone makes a infection minigame where 15 people have HLS. Or itll be really intensely fun using ProV against an invisible zombie army. But sadly this is why ill spend 90% of my time in customs/forge for halo 4, unless things change.

I myself AM ready for a NEW Halo. Unfortunately i doubt ill be getting it. When **** 4 comes out, Im going to buy a 60 dollar good game, but it wont be a halo game to me. What halo was to me is gone, if what defines halo is still in halo 4, then seriously, good for you. Keep in mind not all of us were so lucky.

And this is sort of a separate tangent:

It is sad that 343i’s only way to enforce teamwork is to make the objective carrier so helpless and remove their ability for skilled plays completely by handicapping him. Teamwork should always be encouraged and even required at times, but making a player litterally choiceless (and therefore has no ways to display/make use of his skill) should not be the method of achieving it. . Look at CSGO, it has amazing skill gap for a lone player. If a loner flanks a team, they could easy have downed 2 guys and be on the third before the team even turns around. Yet its one the the most team-based games out there. Why? Its because teamwork is promoted in other ways than handicapping a player. If you want to make it harder to capture a flag, make the flag carrier weaker, or even slower, but don’t limit his options.

It was actually FUN to do the objective in csgo

unfortunately the fun of the casual fanbase comes first, even though most of them will stop playing after the first month.

@dragonfly

I know this will have no impact on halo 4, but maybe it will clear up alot of things in this forum…

There is not a single point I disagree with. Great post OP.

Edited by Moderator - Please do not post inappropriate comments, including political ones.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> Opinion - something that cannot be wrong, disproven in any way, or argued
> Fact - something that is stated which can be proven true or false

Are you a troll, or a republican?

@pokey,

I put those because people

A: call a wrong fact an oppinion
B: call a right fact an oppinion
C: call their oppinion a fact

Secondly, are you making a reference to the daily show? Cuz i love that show:D

Thirdly, id largely appreciate your feedback on the rest of the post.

> There is not a single point I disagree with. Great post OP.

Thanks glad i worded it clearly

Another thing that decreases the skill gap is unequal starts and less of an emphasis on map control when weapons no longer spawn on the map.

There ARE ordinance drops, but those are not static and come with a great big COME AND GET ME I’M HERE NOW sticker on everyone’s HUD.

You used to have to find a BR on the map to have that great utility weapon and an advantage over the enemy. Now everyone can have one.

I miss the days of The Pit where some people grabbed shotty, others rushed Rockets or Sword, some went Camo or Ovie, and there was always that showdown at Sword.

Those that knew where these weapons were had an advantage because they committed themselves to a certain area of map control. A magical Rocket Launcher of the Clouds didn’t magically fall to their feet and shout its presence to everyone in the game.

These are some frustrations I have. They’re not as clear and coherent as I’d like them to be, but I have to state them regardless.

> Another thing that decreases the skill gap is unequal starts and less of an emphasis on map control when weapons no longer spawn on the map.
>
> There ARE ordinance drops, but those are not static and come with a great big COME AND GET ME I’M HERE NOW sticker on everyone’s HUD.
>
> You used to have to find a BR on the map to have that great utility weapon and an advantage over the enemy. Now everyone can have one.
>
> I miss the days of The Pit where some people grabbed shotty, others rushed Rockets or Sword, some went Camo or Ovie, and there was always that showdown at Sword.
>
> Those that knew where these weapons were had an advantage because they committed themselves to a certain area of map control. A magical Rocket Launcher of the Clouds didn’t magically fall to their feet and shout its presence to everyone in the game.
>
> These are some frustrations I have. They’re not as clear and coherent as I’d like them to be, but I have to state them regardless.

Well i disagree on unequal starts, although i dislike them, i think they are more competitive since theres more a player has to take into consideration (as long as they are balanced, and EVERYONE has access)

I agree with you on map control and rewarding the team who wins the fights.

All things I have been stating for years, written and explained very VERY well.
I agree 100% with every single thing you stated.

I hate the fact that options are purposely being limited in gameplay to cater to new players. Even the taking away of in-game objectives such as the quest for oversheild or active camo make the game mind numbingly dull.

The more options and as you stated “things to think about”, will always add to the “skill” of a game, and its longevity.

> All things I have been stating for years, written and explained very VERY well.
> I agree 100% with every single thing you stated.
>
> I hate the fact that options are purposely being limited in gameplay to cater to new players. Even the taking away of in-game objectives such as the quest for oversheild or active camo make the game mind numbingly dull.
>
> The more options and as you stated “things to think about”, will always add to the “skill” of a game, and its longevity.

Yup, thats what depth is.

Theres a difference in viability and just raw options.

This is why i understand complaints about utility weapons (although i dont agree 100%). Why WOULD i use 50% of the other weapons if i can get by on just one. They need niches too, just smaller ones.

Same with AAs. Why would i use the bridges and pathways on the map if a jetpack solves all of it for me?

OP, you have very valid, well thought out points.

But in order for them to work, there is one crucial element that must be properly implemented, or everything goes to hell.

The matchmaking system MUST work.

The game has to be able to correctly distinguish skill levels of players, so new players aren’t being matched with skilled players. Newbies aren’t going to stick around if they get thrashed by experienced players. And if newbies don’t stick around to improve their game, the community doesn’t grow.

A proper matchmaking system is the very first step. Without it, it doesn’t matter what the game mechanics end up being.

> OP, you have very valid, well thought out points.
>
> But in order for them to work, there is one crucial element that must be properly implemented, or everything goes to hell.
>
> The matchmaking system MUST work.
>
> The game has to be able to correctly distinguish skill levels of players, so new players aren’t being matched with skilled players. Newbies aren’t going to stick around if they get thrashed by experienced players. And if newbies don’t stick around to improve their game, the community doesn’t grow.
>
> A proper matchmaking system is the very first step. Without it, it doesn’t matter what the game mechanics end up being.

YYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

100% agree.

I never ever like getting beat 50-10.

Beating people 50-10 was fun, but even on the winning side of that got boring.

I miss COMPETITION and even fights.

Spent alot of time and i would appreciate some feedback on this…

> Skill=/=Difficulty
>
> Grammar check before you enter this (tired of these being underused/misunderstood from what ive read so far)
>
> <mark>Opinion</mark> - something that cannot be wrong, disproven in any way, or argued
> Fact - something that is stated which can be proven true or false
> Connotation - a personal meaning or definition or emotion associated with a word
> Denotation - the dictionary, litteral meaning of a word
> Semantics - a meaning a word, phrase, or gesture that is unique to a person, group, or culture
>
> I don’t need to play halo 4 to know these characteristics are bad, ive played with these in reach and <mark>I know they are bad</mark>. All im saying is <mark>halo 4 will be worse</mark> than the trilogy if it doesn’t have these traits…

You know, I might have read this post even with the opinion presented as fact, but after the attempt at a self serving intro… just lulz

Side note: If something has been proven to be FALSE, it is no longer TRUE, and thus is no longer a FACT

Also there is only one thing in this world that cannot be wrong, disproven in any way, or argued and that my good sir is the one and only Chuck Norris…

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post inappropriate content.

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

Yeah, Daily show reference kinda. I thought you were actually saying an opinion can’t be wrong and a fact can be, I was like, bwaht?! I won’t go into why I said what I said, because of the warning, but OBAMA 2012! lol

As for your post, I’ll get to that now.

Multi-tasking: While I agree jetpack can bypass choices a player should choose between, and messes up map flow, there’s also an inherent danger to using the jetpack, being wide open for getting killed. I think that was less of a risk in Reach because the rate of ascension was so high for the jetpack, that you could get from one floor to the next pretty quickly. I think this has been fixed for Halo 4.

But I’m not disagreeing with you, if I could have it my way, the Jetpack wouldn’t be in Halo 4. It messes up map control.

As for not dropping the flag, that was a move into the TEAM skill area, and not just the individual player’s skill. It takes a TEAM of skilled players to succeed in the new CTF. It kinda strips away the individuals skill, to make the game more team oriented. So you’re right in a way. That the flag carrier can’t depend 100% on his own skill anymore once he grabs the flag.

Babysitting: I already told you why the waypoint on flag is there. Someone else put this in a great way, that when you grab the flag, you’re not just holding the objective, you become the objective… anyways, this isn’t about CTF, so moving on.

Promethean Vision and Nemesis. Nemesis has the waypoint on the player for only a couple seconds after you respawn, then disappears. I think it’s balanced. While yes, this helps the player find this player, it doesn’t kill the player for him. He has to go find this player and kill him himself. The player with the better skill will prevail in these situations. As for promethean vision, and any other AA that helps a player out, it’s about balancing and using these AAs correctly, which takes skill. I can’t tell you how many times a player with armour lock would get shot by me, and automatically go into AL. I would laugh because they just gave me a free kill 9 time out of 10. Wait to time the pop right, and boom, throw a plasma or frag, get an easy kill.

It takes skill to use AAs correctly. There is always a disadvantage to using sprint. Your weapon is down, so if you run into another play who’s not using sprint, they usually get first shot on you. It’s a balancing act using AAs skillfully, or using them to get yourself killed. So I don’t think these things babysit you, because none of them are get out of jail free cards.

Improvement: Well, we have a faster movement speed, so strafing will no doubt be a big thing in Halo 4, will determine the vets from the nubs.

Punish for mistakes: They are. Like I said in a previous part, there are disadvantages to each AA. If you mistakenly use one, you’re going to get punished for it. Say I’m getting double teamed, shot from infront one shot from behind. I could win the battle infront of me perhaps, but I decide to use hardlight shield. I’m protected from the front, but now, the person in the back gets an easy kill on me. I’m slowed down, easier headshot from behind. It’s a case of using HLS wrong. Punsihed for my mistake. I see a player with rockets, use HLS, “Oh right, HLS doesn’t protect against rockets.” is what I’ll be thinking to myself when in the respawn screen.

As for the kill times, I like them where they are at in this game, 2-4 seconds.

But another thing about AAs, I don’t know if I said this before. They are meant to be defensive, and not offensive. They can be used for offensive purposes, so long as you work with your team. But their main purpose is defense.

No scott frees: I agree that no skill should be learned in 5 mins. But oddball throwing, yeah that would be annoying on gaurdian. But it promotes teamwork again. Let them throw the ball off edge, wait for them to go for ball in middle, team shot them, then grab the ball and defend your teammate as he makes his way to safety. I remember playing oddball on gaurdian, and the more skilled teams would throw the ball off of map. Because it gave them an advantage.

Reward the better player: Ahhhh, here we go, here’s where my “AAs are suppose to be defensive” spiel comes in. And it’s true. Truly skilled players will use AAs to the best of their ability. A truly skilled player won’t deny the uses of AAs, and be all egotistical saying that AAs are for casuals. There were a lot of skilled players who used Armour lock to kick my -Yoink- in Halo: Reach, same with jetpack. The better player will use the AAs to win an encounter that they might otherwise not win without.

This may not have been a mistake by that player, this isn’t a scott free thing. Say a player spawns right behind me (yes this happens), he tries to go for the double beat down like a lot of players in Reach do. I AL right as he tries to beat me down, I pop out, he is now EMP’d, if not enough I beat him down while he can’t, because he JUST tried to and the EMP slows down your movement. He tries again, I AL again, I pop out and beat him down, resulting in a kill.

I was the BETTER player there because I used the AA to my advantage. While the less skilled player tried to use a noob tactic to kill me.

Woooooo, done. What a novel.

I think I know the point of your argument, but it seems very muddled and unclear with lots of unnecessary jargon.

> /quote]
>
> 1: Thats good, we agree for the most part. I think the problem will be somewhat solved in h4.
>
> 2: It doesnt matter, it accomplishes a job FOR the player. That in itself is disgusting
> Balanced or not, it still babysits the player by doing the players job FOR him. I dont know how i can make this any clearer.
>
> 3: Definately, but it still could be better.
>
> 4: Lets use jetpack as an example. Just because i know how to press X and fly up, i should be able to dodge almost ANY gernade? Gernades that took weeks to learn how to throw correctly can be 90% negated at a 5minute skill?
>
> Secondly, the scenario you gave is a bad one. If someone is hiding with an HLS, theres 2 options:
>
> Die for messing up
> Be given a chance at living, even though you messed up.
>
> The skillgap for knowing when to use the HLS is hundreds of times smaller than knowing how to not get in that situation where you need it in the first place.
>
> 5: Team oddball doesnt work that way unless your playing 5 random new players vs 5 random new players. Anyone good at halo knows when and when not to push, so everytime the losing team will get a 50/50 shot at redemption instead of rewarding the winning team with the ball.
>
> Its like dieing, but every time you die you get a 50/50 shot at your shields just randomely jumping to full. <mark>Your not as impacted by your bad decisions.</mark>
>
> 6: Yes it gave them the advantage. It was also done almost EVERY time a good team lost the ball. Wanna know WHY? Because it gave them a chance at redemption just by standing near the edge. Just knowing to stand near an edge when you died made up for all the skill difference. (fun fact - alot of pro players wanted that gone) And now you can do it, from almost any where in the map? Disgusting.
>
> 7: Jetpack is an offensive ability, since it leaves you open but full capability of attacking/shooting/nadeing/etc.
>
> And im not gonna argue this one, since your making no sense. A good player wont find these to his advantage since they only do one thing, to defend and make up for mistakes.
>
> Yes, your correct on armorlock, it was good (and offensive!) for using against double meleers, but that was maybe 1 in 10 cases where AL was actually used. Most of the time it was when
>
> A: the player was surprised since someone got the jump on em
> B: almost dead from being outplayed
> C: destroying a vehicle (which is offensive, but i think OP)
>
> And read this:
>
> It is sad that 343i’s only way to enforce teamwork is to make the objective carrier so helpless and remove their ability for skilled plays completely by handicapping him. Teamwork should always be encouraged and even required at times, <mark>but making a player litterally choiceless (and therefore has no ways to display/make use of his skill) should not be the method of achieving it</mark>. . Look at CSGO, it has amazing skill gap for a lone player. If a loner flanks a team, they could easy have downed 2 guys and be on the third before the team even turns around. Yet its one the the most team-based games out there. Why? Its because teamwork is promoted in other ways than handicapping a player. If you want to make it harder to capture a flag, make the flag carrier weaker, or even slower, but don’t limit his options.
>
> It was actually FUN to do the objective in csgo