Plotholes Plotholes and more Plotholes

Games Halo Infinite
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Of course they do.

Doisac didn’t happen until after Shadows of Reach. Atriox wasn’t in the Galaxy, and thus Cortana had no way to meet with him. As well, the Banished don’t want to use the Rings. They want to control them, or at least Zeta Halo, to have a gun to point to the Galaxy’s head. It’s all about power, not galactic annihilation.

Several of the books, especially Legacy of Onyx, Bad Blood and the short story Rossbach’s World paint a picture of the Galaxy under Cortana’s rule. As does several stories in Tales from Slipspace, namely Undefeated. It’s odd that you would mention several of these books, and then completely ignore their plot.

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They don’t tell you anything new. It’s essentially restating what happened in Halo 5 and it’s entirely from the perspectives of people on the outside. You don’t for example get any POV from people on Earth post take over and so have no insight into what the arrangement is exactly. You see ONI flee Sydney but that’s just elaborating Halo 5 ending. Shadows and Divine Wind takes place beyond the limits of Created space so characters don’t seriously think about it.

They don’t tell you when Doisacs destruction takes place. Another poster mentioned that in Bad Blood they mention losing contact with Doisac post Halo 5. That strongly suggests it takes place during Halo 5s ending. It is a massive plot hole that this is not mentioned by any Banished character in Shadows or Divine Wind; when it’s their primary motivation.

They repeatedly say they want to point the ring at Earth and fire it. This is the entire premise of Halo Infinite. The Banished are not misunderstood good guys; they’re scum. Atriox wants to release the Endless and he killed everybody on the Infinity. I don’t understand the gymnastics required to argue theyre anything other than cartoonish villains. It’s not about conquest or power; it’s about petty “revenge” on humanity.

Legacy of Onyx shows us a Guardian attack during the first phase of takeover. Nothing new.

Bad Blood shows us the aftermath of Guardian attacks on Luna and it elaborates on a Canon Fodder article about the Grunt homeworld. They leave Sanghelios before we learn anything. However it’s sparse on details and essentially just the outsiders passing through. We also see a more first phase Created betrayal of UNSC personnel and more Guardian attacks to try to subjugate worlds. This is all stuff we knew already.

Rossbachs World, we see ONI flee Earth and more initial Guardian attacks. We already knew that from seeing the Infinity flee.

Tales from Slipspace again shows people in the immediate aftermath of the EMP. You don’t see what happens after that.

What you’re told is the story of Cortanas initial takeover of the Galaxy. Not, what actually happened in the twelve months where she did rule the Galaxy. It’s lots of confused characters who are out the loop and don’t know what’s going on.

Those stories are primarily focused on the various characters and the later ones entirely focused on killing the Banished who are invading the UNSC for reasons that are never explained or questioned. Even Halo Wars 2 nobody considers asking that question. The fate of Earth and the humans being ruled by the Created isn’t a trivial question. I mean the only reason we know Earth hasn’t been destroyed itself is because the Banished plan to destroy it with the Halo. We know that little about the state of the galaxy.

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343 don’t know how to write a decent story or how to stick to their guns. Regardless of how 5 was received, they could have adjusted course with Infinite and resolved it, paving the way for a whole new story afterwards.

But they are so averse to criticism, so sensitive to any level of critical feedback that they just threw it all away like an emotionally unstable child and went with bad fanfiction instead.

Their novel writers are decent, you’d think they’d at least have them involved on some level. IMO 343 doesn’t care unless they can tack on microtransactions to it.

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25

Except for

  • UNSC AI going completely rogue and doing everything from imprisoning people to straight up murdering them (This is NEW. Halo 5 may have laid the groundwork for this with Cortana’s speech, but there was little directly stating to what lengths former UNSC AI would go.)
  • Laconia Station’s entire existence
  • HIGHCOM falling, with Admiral Osman, Admiral Hood, and Black Box escaping Earth (Again, NEW. We saw Earth get blacked out, we didn’t see - until then - the entire Upper Command of the UNSC get neutralized.)

Cortana’s speech outlines very clearly what the arrangement is. If you’re thinking it’s some big mystery, I would suggest playing the final mission of Halo 5 again.

We have more than enough to extrapolate that. Losing contact with Doisac is not a huge indicator, as galaxy-wide communication was shut down. However no, Doisac is not mentioned at all in Bad Blood; I just searched through it on my Kindle. Neither “Doisac”, “lost contact”, “contact”, or “Brutes” showed any results. “Jiralhanae” turned up only one, and that was a summary of Cortana’s speech in Halo 5. Furthermore, Cortana would not be able to meet with Atriox - even through communication - to demand his submission until he was back in the Galaxy. That didn’t happen until the very end of Shadows of Reach. Their conversation, and thus the destruction of Doisac, must have happened between Shadows of Reach and Halo Infinite.

As well, none of the Banished in Divine Wind would have known this happened, as there was no communication from the Milky Way to the Ark. They cannot know if they don’t receive new. Castor and his Keepers left Reach immediately after Atriox arrived; they would not have been present to even hear that news. There is no plot hole.

Is this idle or ambient conversation? If so I have yet to encounter it at all in-game. All that’s said in the cutscenes is that the Banished will take control of the Ring, make it their home, and never bow to anyone. That the Galaxy will understand their might and all that. Not that they’re wanting to destroy Earth with it. This, as well as releasing the Endless, is the premise of Infinite.

Esparza said that he killed everyone. Audio Logs handed to you at every FOB paint a very different story, and this can be very known to be an over-exaggeration.

“Petty”? Villains or no, having your entire planet destroyed does not invoke petty actions. JFC.

The question is asked plenty, but it’s unnecessary as the answer is freely given. The Banished take what they want, and crush any opposition in their path. If you do not flee, you are destroyed. They wanted the Ark, and the UNSC was in the way. Nothing more. Then they started fighting back, and the Banished met that eagerly. It’s no mystery why and how the Banished operate.

Well, that is something to be explored. But for now, people (often pitched as the “majority of fans”) wanted a story firmly set in the boots of the Master Chief and no one else. Well, the Master Chief isn’t at Earth, or all over the Galaxy, he’s at Zeta Halo. Get comfy, because that’s the story the “majority” wanted.

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You can easily infer the UNSC AI doing stuff like that. Plus that’s the only information they gave you after six years.

Another Spartan 4 training facility. And?

So we get one second past midnight. That’s not really telling us anything that couldn’t be inferred.

Not remotely. No more than “we leave the Galaxy at the mercy of a monster” explains the Banished. Cortana says obey or die. We see a lot of the latter but there’s no information provided on the former and what exactly that entails. For example:

  • Are humans directly ruled by AI or retain self governing protectorates? Did the UEG actually surrender when Earth fell.
  • How far did Cortana go in terms of trying to control people? That could be anything from what governments today do to putting them in the Matrix and concentration camps.
  • Is this all stick and no carrot. If she is a Rogue Servitor that should mean machines doing a lot of the work and Forerunner tech that is very possible.
  • What do people actually think of this AI taking over the Galaxy.
  • Did Cortana do anything nuts like, I dunno, destroy one of the Covenant homeworlds and kill 12.5 billion Brutes.
  • What is the extent and scale of Created control over the galaxy. How do battles with them usually go.
  • How do these question differ on the Elite and other Covenant worlds. Do they have a different perspective. Does a religious aspect creep into it due to their tendencies of revering Forerunner technology.
  • So is the UNSC full Battlestar Galactica here? How is it able to fight and conduct a war without territory?

You don’t judge somebody on the Manifesto, you judge them by their actions and you get an extremely incomplete picture.

You don’t know when Atriox left for the Ark. They likely had this discussion and that’s why he went to the Ark. We’re never given a motivation for the Banished attacks on humanity until Infinite. This is the primary cause and why they want the Halo ring. It’s a massive plot hole.

No it’s a major plot point in the game that they are trying to repair the Halo ring for the purposes of firing it; which is why you the Chief are trying to stop them. But yea there is a lot of ambient dialogue amounting to we are going to genocide humanity and point the ring at Earth.

I am sorry, they failed to massacre the Infinity’s crew. That must mean they have the best of intentions. :smile:

I am sorry, Skynet blew up my planet so I will kill everyone else in the galaxy is sympathetic? From a species that has destroyed hundreds of worlds, butchered billions of innocents without remorse. Forgive me if I don’t weep for the Banished and Atriox. It’s karma that they got their own world destroyed out of arrogant pride. He’s doomed their race to extinction and is now dragging what’s left of them down with him. The Brutes are like Esharum, sick and dying; with nobody but themselves to blame.

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How. Before we knew that’s what they did, that is. What indications did we have that AI would start spacing people?

And that’s something new. We found out what Jun was up to after playing Spartan Recruiter. We found out that Dutch and his wife finally became Spartan-IV’s. New stuff, imagine that.

Now, you keep talking about what you can “infer”. Take your huge list of questions and maybe… infer a few of them?

  • Consider how ingrained the UNSC and the UEG was to AI. Infer from there.
  • How far did Cortana go? Well, SPACING PEOPLE seems pretty far.
  • What do people think of the AI take over. Well, given that they’re actively fighting against it, what do you think?
  • Again, Doisac happened directly after Shadows of Reach. That is the only chronological possibility, and you’re digging your own hole there by refusing to acknowledge that.
  • What is the scale? Well given that even Bahalo was taken over, total. Battles against the Guardians are outlined quite clearly in Bad Blood and Legacy of Onyx.

Yes, we are. Power. It is absolutely clear in Halo Wars 2 that the Banished crushed UNSC forces on the Ark to claim it as their own, and crushed any opposition. They’re Jiralhanae, they’re not just going to set up camp next door and start singing campfire songs. Additionally his battles with the Spirit of Fire are all defensive until there was something to gain (the Halo ring), to which they moved to take that too. That is their motivation; power and control. If you didn’t get that from any of the media, then you need to pay closer attention. There are no plot holes there, you are trying to make a hole.

And for sake of argument, let’s say that Doisac was destroyed before Halo Wars 2. Do you think the Banished are going to mention it? “Hey, we’re going to wipe you out, sorry; it’s because your blue lady destroyed our planet.” No, they’re just going to do it. The only reason we know in Infinite is because we saw it happen in an echo.

And when is that mentioned? Provide a quote, or a level; anything please.

As an aside this complacency with waving away global destruction because “they deserved it” (fictional situation or not) is deeply disturbing in a very real sense.

28

Ummm….

Grunt “We’re going to take this ring and point it at Earth”

Escharum “This ring will be operational. Then, you will have your revenge.”

Escharum “Humanity will burn. Their brazen defiance will be all but a memory.”

Escharum “Humanitys last hope dies with you”

Escharum “The Covenant is dead. Soon humanity will join them”

Tremonius “You promised us revenge”

Atriox “I have little need of a failed God. This ring is all I need. Surrender it to me.”

Cortana “He has the ring. A weapon pointed into universe. With nothing left to lose. My fault. My stupid fault.”

Master Chief - “The Banished are going to fire this ring.”

Propaganda Grunt - “I yearn for your extinction.”

Propaganda grunt - “Ho Boy, just imagine. All that worthless human culture and industry that’ll go up in flames when we activate this ring. It’ll be like you never existed at all and there’ll be nobody alive to mourn the loss. Anyway have a great day.”

:smile:

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It doesn’t really do you well to laugh when I had to ask you twice to provide it.

So… A grunt smack-talking is the definite, totally-real plans of the Banished. Kay.

Wasn’t that spoken to the Harbinger, in relation to, y’know, releasing her people? Hardly firing the ring.

These point to war. Not exactly using the ring.

Atriox sought the secrets that the ring held. Namely, the Endless. This isn’t hidden or a mystery, nor does this suggest he wanted to fire the ring.

Cortana’s fears don’t make for the plans of the Banished. However this also indicates the aforementioned “tool to threaten the galaxy”, not specifically “We’re going to use the ring on Earth.”

The Propaganda Grunt also asks for an Xbox controller. As well, canonically he is there to discourage and psychologically demoralize the UNSC forces. That does not indicate “This is what’s going to happen 100%.”

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No I think that’s pretty conclusive. I don’t think there’s any room for interpretation on this point. You’re talking about the central conflict in the game.

343 said it’s a simple story and that the Banished were filling the role of the Covenant. We have a dozen quotes, among many many others, talking about then firing the Halo Array to destroy humanity because that really is what they want. The Endless are used to help the Banished achieve that goal which is why Esharum works with her.

The only reason to want that not to be the case is because you like the idea of Atriox being a grey character. Which he isn’t. The Banished are not another nation state engaged in taking territory and they are not trying to compel the UNSC to surrender. These are conscious statements of intent to commit genocide against humanity. You’re confusing the games age rating with what the faction actually is. They don’t show us heaps of innocent people being hacked apart, butchered and eaten for that reason; but that’s what they’re all about.

You don’t think having him seemingly kill your friends on the Infinity and prevent you saving Cortana after he physically beats the Chief is setting him up as a clear cut antagonist? I thought it was very clear what they were going for. It’s setting up a showdown in which you put him in the ground for good.

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That you think it’s conclusive doesn’t make it so. You’re relying mostly on Grunts - one of them bordering on a complete farce - to show that the Banished plan to fire the ring.

The Harbinger promised the Ring to the Banished to motivate them into helping her. She doesn’t care about their goals or their struggles. The only mentions of plans for the Ring that Escharum ever mentions is that it is the Banished’s new home.

As well, I have never said that Atriox is a grey character. I have never said he is not the antagonist. Bluntly put for this and others brought up here, these problems seem to stem from you reading into things that aren’t there or ignoring things that are - either their presence or their context.

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Banished leaders were not killed off screen. Harbinger was not killed off screen.

Atriox isnt dead, when cortana destroyed the ring, atriox was put in a reverse time lock. He would only come out six months later after the Banished took over and everyone thinks hes dead.

The only character killed off screen was cortana. And those four spartans you find.

A theory I really like is that the Endless are precursor descendent. When zeta halo went missing for 43 years, mendicant bias and the primordial came up with a plan after he was destroyed by the halos. They genetically engineered the Endless which are immune to the halo rings. Which explains why they were so unknown when despondent pyre first saw them, and why them being so advanced, but they were found on their homeworld doing nothing really. No massive space ships, no mega structures. The Harbinger also has a reclaimer symbol on her helmet, and makes direct quotes of the Gravemind in halo 2.

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The game literally makes no sense otherwise.

“We won’t have a home to go back to if we don’t stop the Banished” - Master Chief

You do realise that conquest, power and Imperialism often involves genocide and that for your typical fictional villain these go hand in hand. Him wanting those things doesn’t preclude him wanting to wipe humanity out. If you are writing a character who wants a 1000 year empire and his followers are talking about killing and massacring people you probably should see the writing on the wall. I don’t think that’s a huge inference and the quotes aren’t exactly subtle.

You’re suggesting he’s a morally grey villain because you’re arguing:

“Atriox is nothing like the Covenant. He respect humans. He wouldn’t just destroy Earth with a Halo ring. He’s a Noble Guy who has been wronged by that nasty AI. He just wants the power of the Endless. 343 would never write him as a clear cut genocidal monster like previous Halo villains.”

I think he’s a monster, precisely what Cutter and Isabel call him.

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Atriox is a Jiralhanae brute.

But he is unlike the others because he has a brain on his shoulders as well as brash and brawn.

Little known fact about the Brutes, they have gone through nuclear war TWICE. They are a scientific race like the others, but their tenancy for war is like Humanity but turned up to 11. They have had a space age before, and they literally re-discovered nukes and let the hammers fall.

When the Covenant found them, they were in the midst of another industrial age, fueled by war. Kinda like how our Industrial Age really took off with WW1

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I really hope they don’t try to make the Chief be all respectful towards Atriox like he was with Escharum. It’s not respectful to the people these monsters have killed, it gives too much dignity to the villains ideology and he should have no more empathy than the Avengers had for Thanos.

He should just go full Doomguy on Atriox and put him down for good.

I mean Atriox makes a big deal about the consequences of actions and choices. For such a smart Brute, he really hasn’t considered the consequences of picking a fight with Chief. Pushing humanity into a corner when you’ve become an endangered species isn’t exactly a winning strategy. I like how Escharum borrows the Stannis metaphor that they don’t bend; because they’re brittle. Humanity and the Chief can take a hit and come back. They can’t.

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Chief showed Escharum respect not because he was a monster. But because like himself, he was a soldier. Soldiers fight for what they believe in. Master Chief fought to protect Humanity. Escharum fought for his Banished and Chief likely mis-represented some of the motives of Escharum as well. After all, Cortana destroyed Doisac. And if you pick up the Banished audio recordings, you hear Escharum lament about the loss of his home.

Granted The Banished can be monsters. But each individual soldier has their own reasons to fight. Chief saw that Escharum wanted to die in combat, not from the old age he was clearly suffering from. He wanted to die with dignity and fighting for The Banished he so believed in.

A soldier’s death.

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Oh yeah I got that and the Chief does actually accept the Pilots statement that he is a monster. I am glad that wasn’t refuted by the Chief. It would have went too far.

I just hope that isn’t applied to Atriox. With Esharum there was that cartoony “Our Battle will be Legendary” and he was dying so I can accept that. Although, I did want to tell him “No. I will not tell them you died well.”; he did just torture your friend and has been murdering your people for months. However it was good to demonstrate the Chief being Captain America and the better man; it’s that sort of story. He’s not Kratos.

He laments the loss of his home but doesn’t have that self reflection that his species evil actions in all the war, butchery and raiding made his people a target for something they couldn’t smash with a gravity hammer. That’s refusing to accept responsibility and means he’s lashing out at humanity who built Skynet rather than changing his ways.

But with Atriox, it should be personal. He also embodies this evil faction just as much as Truth did. A point should be made of proving why he is wrong and flawed.

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The game absolutely makes sense otherwise. You are fixating on the perception that the Banished’s goal is to fire the ring, despite that never being stated in any serious context from their leadership, and thus blinding yourself to any and all other possibilities. The Banished are on a warpath against the UNSC and the pilot wants to go home. What do you tell him? Well, if we don’t do our duty and stop the Banished here there won’t be a home because, y’know, war - That doesn’t mean that they’re planning to fire the ring.

I want you to quote me where I said any of that.

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:smile:

I think we’re done here.

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Yes, I think we are if the route is going to be Straw Man arguments. Ciao.

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Agreed. I think they needed to either A: Make a better story that integrates more of the characters from previous games, and has more onscreen action, or B: make it clear that 4/5 are non-canon, and start back at the end of Halo 3 and reintegrate some of the better characters (like Lasky) into a new canon.

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