Please, no REDUNDANT WEAPONS in Halo 4

Games Other Halo
1

For those of you who’ve been with the franchise since Halo CE, you may remember the arsenal of weapons you had at your disposal. True, there weren’t many, but each one had it’s own individual strengths and weaknesses, and in that arsenal, you basically had everything you really needed.

The UNSC had:

  1. The Magnum, which served as your basic single-shot medium ranged weapon.
  2. The Assault Rifle, which was your basic spray suppression device.
  3. The Shotgun for effective close-range combat.
  4. The Sniper Rifle for taking out enemies from afar.
  5. The Rocket Launcher for your basic one-hit kill explosive weapon.

The Covenant used four distinct weapons:

  1. The Plasma Pistol, able to utilize an overcharged plasma shot while also being able to shoot as fast as you could pull the trigger.
  2. The Plasma Rifle, allowing you to shoot rapid fire plasma with far less effort. The trade off was the lack of an overcharge shot.
  3. The Needler, when used properly served almost as a homing grenade launcher.
  4. The Fuel Rod Gun, rather than being the Covie-Rocket Launcher was used more as a mortar-type weapon in the same way that the Wraith differed from the Scorpion.

Since then, every game has included “Covie-equivelents” which gave you a larger arsenal, but at the same time was basically the same weapon with a different coat of paint. The Brute Plasma Rifle is really just a regular one that shoots faster. Big deal. The Beam Rifle never had to be reloaded, but overheated. Again, pretty much the same as the sniper. The Carbine? Okay, so now the Covenant have a single-shot BR. And of course the “new” Fuel Rod Gun was nothing more than a less powerful rocket launcher with plasma.

Personally, I’d like to see more “utility” brought back to the weapon scheme rather than gimmicks to make it look like we have more than we actually do. What are some of your thoughts?

2

So… do you want to make the game more complicated?

I sort of agree, but the FRG was arround scince the first game, although it was more of artillery/grenade launcher rather than rocket launcher. I say change the vehicle equivalents. They need to be inately different, instead of sort of different.

3

Halo 1 and Halo Reach were the two best games in this category. Most weapons felt useful in their own regard, whereas in Halo 2/3 the feeling of redundancy ran rampant!

4

> Halo 1 and Halo Reach were the two best games in this category. Most weapons felt useful in their own regard, whereas in Halo 2/3 the feeling of redundancy ran rampant!

This was definitely “improved” vastly in Reach. This is most evident in the way they traded out the Beam Rifle for the Sentinel-Beam-like Focus Rifle. It was a great stride towards the original concept, but we still had redundancies such as the DMR, Magnum, and Needle Rifle which were all basically single-shot midranged weapons. You could argue that the Needle Rifle had a super-combine, but being able to pull it off became far less frequent when dealing with smaller targets. Even less so with multiplayer since you are primarily dealing with enemies that have shields.

5

> > Halo 1 and Halo Reach were the two best games in this category. Most weapons felt useful in their own regard, whereas in Halo 2/3 the feeling of redundancy ran rampant!
>
> This was definitely “improved” vastly in Reach. This is most evident in the way they traded out the Beam Rifle for the Sentinel-Beam-like Focus Rifle. It was a great stride towards the original concept, but we still had redundancies such as the DMR, Magnum, and Needle Rifle which were all basically single-shot midranged weapons. You could argue that the Needle Rifle had a super-combine, but being able to pull it off became far less frequent when dealing with smaller targets. Even less so with multiplayer since you are primarily dealing with enemies that have shields.

I personally adore all of the Covenant variety; I’m one of those Halo fans that plays for the alien tech, but I agree that a lot of weapons are redundant, like the Repeater, Spiker, Needle Rifle, Magnum, etc., that serve no outside purpose and are even less powerful than their counterparts. I say dump half of the Covy weapons and some of the UNSC weapons and add Forerunner weaponry that are fun and amazing to use. I personally would love to see a sweet looking Forerunner sniper rifle. But I personally would love for the Focus Rifle to stay.

6

Two words: this & this.

7

> > > Halo 1 and Halo Reach were the two best games in this category. Most weapons felt useful in their own regard, whereas in Halo 2/3 the feeling of redundancy ran rampant!
> >
> > This was definitely “improved” vastly in Reach. This is most evident in the way they traded out the Beam Rifle for the Sentinel-Beam-like Focus Rifle. It was a great stride towards the original concept, but we still had redundancies such as the DMR, Magnum, and Needle Rifle which were all basically single-shot midranged weapons. You could argue that the Needle Rifle had a super-combine, but being able to pull it off became far less frequent when dealing with smaller targets. Even less so with multiplayer since you are primarily dealing with enemies that have shields.
>
> I personally adore all of the Covenant variety; I’m one of those Halo fans that plays for the alien tech, but I agree that a lot of weapons are redundant, like the Repeater, Spiker, Needle Rifle, Magnum, etc., that serve no outside purpose and are even less powerful than their counterparts. I say dump half of the Covy weapons and some of the UNSC weapons and add Forerunner weaponry that are fun and amazing to use. I personally would love to see a sweet looking Forerunner sniper rifle. But I personally would love for the Focus Rifle to stay.

I partially agree with the Focus Rifle comment, but I’ll explain why I’m on the fence.

The most unique weapons they’ve added to the series since Halo CE have been the Energy Sword (which was in CE but unusable), the Sentinel Beam, and the Concussion Rifle (the latest iteration of the H3 Brute Shot).

The Sword was a good addition. Personally, I would have removed the “lunge” effect to make it more like the one-hit kill melee system that was used in CE (the way the Elites used it). The lunge seems a bit unnatural, but all in all, it’s still unique without the addition of the gravity hammer.

The Sentinel Beam/Focus Rifle is certainly unique, but my only qualm with it is that there is almost always a better weapon to use in any given scenario. Personally, the only time I ever use either weapon is when I’m in the mood for something different, which doesn’t really justify its presence in the game. And it because of that, it really has no utility.

The Concussion Rifle is neat because it provides a handheld “medium” plasma weapon to the operator that’s stronger than the standard plasma weapons yet weaker than the Fuel Rod Gun. However, if the CE Fuel Rod Gun had been kept along with the original Needler, the need for a medium explosive in the game such as a Grenade Launcher or medium plasma weapon would be void. Perhaps using the CE Shade/Spirit plasma weapon as a handheld could be arguable, but to me, that takes away from the threat imposed by Covenant vehicles.

8

> > > > Halo 1 and Halo Reach were the two best games in this category. Most weapons felt useful in their own regard, whereas in Halo 2/3 the feeling of redundancy ran rampant!
> > >
> > > This was definitely “improved” vastly in Reach. This is most evident in the way they traded out the Beam Rifle for the Sentinel-Beam-like Focus Rifle. It was a great stride towards the original concept, but we still had redundancies such as the DMR, Magnum, and Needle Rifle which were all basically single-shot midranged weapons. You could argue that the Needle Rifle had a super-combine, but being able to pull it off became far less frequent when dealing with smaller targets. Even less so with multiplayer since you are primarily dealing with enemies that have shields.
> >
> > I personally adore all of the Covenant variety; I’m one of those Halo fans that plays for the alien tech, but I agree that a lot of weapons are redundant, like the Repeater, Spiker, Needle Rifle, Magnum, etc., that serve no outside purpose and are even less powerful than their counterparts. I say dump half of the Covy weapons and some of the UNSC weapons and add Forerunner weaponry that are fun and amazing to use. I personally would love to see a sweet looking Forerunner sniper rifle. But I personally would love for the Focus Rifle to stay.
>
> I partially agree with the Focus Rifle comment, but I’ll explain why I’m on the fence.
>
> The most unique weapons they’ve added to the series since Halo CE have been the Energy Sword (which was in CE but unusable), the Sentinel Beam, and the Concussion Rifle (the latest iteration of the H3 Brute Shot).
>
> The Sword was a good addition. Personally, I would have removed the “lunge” effect to make it more like the one-hit kill melee system that was used in CE (the way the Elites used it). The lunge seems a bit unnatural, but all in all, it’s still unique without the addition of the gravity hammer.
>
> The Sentinel Beam/Focus Rifle is certainly unique, but my only qualm with it is that there is almost always a better weapon to use in any given scenario. Personally, the only time I ever use either weapon is when I’m in the mood for something different, which doesn’t really justify its presence in the game. And it because of that, it really has no utility.
>
> The Concussion Rifle is neat because it provides a handheld “medium” plasma weapon to the operator that’s stronger than the standard plasma weapons yet weaker than the Fuel Rod Gun. However, if the CE Fuel Rod Gun had been kept along with the original Needler, the need for a medium explosive in the game such as a Grenade Launcher or medium plasma weapon would be void. Perhaps using the CE Shade/Spirit plasma weapon as a handheld could be arguable, but to me, that takes away from the threat imposed by Covenant vehicles.

Weapons like the Concussion Rifle/Brute Shot need to stay, because they offer anti-vehicle utility with faster respawn times than rockets/FRG’s. They’re the in between anti-vehicle weapons/anti-infantry weapons, which are very useful in Halo.

If the Focus Rifle was slightly buffed, then it would be much more desired than it is now. I still outplay people at medium range with the Focus Rifle, albeit with more difficulty than with a DMR/NR.

9

Putting aside my want for new shinny things, and my love for the CE sandbox, so I can attempt a non-biased response; also making a rather large assumption that there will be no Covenant weaponry in Halo 4.

Halo needs niche weapons. Each weapon should have a situation where it will beat most other weapons. This doesn’t mean we can only have a small palette of weapons, though. Expanding game-play mechanics and features means that we can introduce new weapons, with little overlap.

For example, here is a list of weapons that will each have their own niche:

  • Utility Rifle. Best effective mid-range precision.
  • Sniper Rifle. Best effective anti-infantry long range.
  • Continuous Rifle (eg: Focus Rifle). Mid to long range suppression.
  • Shield -Yoink!- pistol (eg: PP). Most effective in close quarters with use of a secondary weapon to finish kill.
  • Lunging Melee weapon (aka Sword). CQC Offense.
  • Shotgun. Close quarters against numerous enemies, reload changes the niche to a more defensive one.
  • Assault Rifle. Automatic, thus less accurate, less powerful. Suppression/Defensive weapon.
  • Small arms pistol. high rate of fire compared to Utility weapon meaning it is better in close quarters, but still effective at a medium range, just less accurate.
  • Light Machine Gun. Powerful but inaccurate, large clip, similar niche to AR, but closer combat, better against vehicles, and more offensive.
  • Shield stripping assault rifle (such as PRifle). Best used in conjunction with another weapon to finish a kill quickly.
  • Rockets… Required.
  • Spartan Laser, best used against vehicles, but balanced for use anti-infantry. Quick kill, low ammunition.
  • Grenade Launcher. Close quarters, around corners, set as mine, or Vehicle disabling.
  • Secondary Assault Rifle (eg: PRep). Good kill finisher, slower than a headshot, but more guaranteed kill.
  • Concussion/FRG/Brute-shot. Merge the three. Powerful suppression, great against CQC weaponry in a larger combat space.

You could take that list, almost double it, and tinker with the duplicated to make counterpart weapons, and you could still have a solid sandbox.
What Reach did wrong, IMO, is make weapons too similar. Like Spiker/PRif, Hammer & Sword, DMR/Needler (although that is an exception due to the counterpart rule), etc.

You can expand a sandbox without overlapping too much, that is what I think they should do.

10

> Two words: this & this.

Ah yes! Which reminds me; my thread needs a bit of reviving :stuck_out_tongue:

11

I don’t see them having to many covie weapons in Halo 4 but who knows.

12

> I don’t see them having to many covie weapons in Halo 4 but who knows.

I’m hoping the bulk of Covy replicas are replaced with Forerunner weaponry (except the Needler and Plasma Rifle; those are pretty much the face of Covenant weaponry, IMO).

13

I’d like to take this moment to cough, and say that players did not have access to the Fuel Rod Gun in the Xbox version of Halo CE.

Anyway, I like the idea of every weapon being different. But you still need a fully realized arsenal, and the Vehicles are a great example of how this can be accomplished.

NO vehicle is the same. Not a single one. Sure there are “Equivalents” such as the Wraith and Scorpion, Banshee and Falcon, or the Warthog and Revenant. But you can’t mound up a Revenant and say “Hey, it’s just like a Warthog!” Because it doesn’t.

Halo Reach does have a few weapons that act as equivalents, but perform differently. Sword vs Shotgun, Grenade Launcher vs Concussion Rifle, Plasma Pistol/Needler vs Magnum (PP and Needler share the role of Covie sidearm), and these are shining examples of weapons that were designed WELL for what they accomplish.

Basically just do this:

Build the Human sandbox out of the basics:

AR (Close range Rifle)
BR/DMR (Long range Rifle)
Magnum (In-between sidearm)
Sniper (Long range power weapon)
Shotgun (Close range power weapon)
Grenade Launcher (Mid range power weapon)
Rockets (Anti-Vehicle/Air)
Frags (Grenade)

Then design your “Alien” weapons to just be cool, workable weapons. They should be effective, the kind of weapon you want to pick up. But they should just do strange things. Here’s a “Dream Covenant Sandbox” as an example, using entirely UNIQUE weapons.

Plasma Rifle (Rifle shoots accurate FAST projectiles, x2 damage on headshots, stuns)
Neelder (Mid range tracking sidearm)
Plasma Pistol (Sidearm shoots projectiles, x2 damage on headshots, overcharges)
Spartan Laser (Should have been Covie anyway, Sniper/Anti-Air)
Energy Sword (Melee only power weapon)
Concussion Rifle (Mid range power weapon)
Fuel Rod Gun (Mortar-style anti-vehicle)
Plasma Grenade (Same as always)

And that’s literally it. Plasma Rifle would be the closest to a Covie utility, the Projectiles being faster means that it’s range is increased substantially. With skill effective at mid range, even competing against the BR/DMR, but losing it the farther away you get. The others, well, they all have niches.

14

the idea is balancing the game my friend, it simply wouldent be a balanced game with weapons didn’t have a covie counterpart. I get what you mean, there shouldent have ever have been a plasma repeater and frankly the carbine was always better than the needle rifle. People need to realize its all about the story line in the campaign that links with what weapons are available in the entire game.

15

> the idea is balancing the game my friend, it simply wouldent be a balanced game with weapons didn’t have a covie counterpart. I get what you mean, there shouldent have ever have been a plasma repeater and frankly the carbine was always better than the needle rifle. People need to realize its all about the story line in the campaign that links with what weapons are available in the entire game.

There doesn’t need to be an exact replica of every weapon. And equivalent, yes, but not just another of the same.

A Carbine and Needle Rifle are literally just an alternate way to have a BR or DMR. And it shouldn’t be. Rather you should be given the choice of a weapon that is all it’s own. Like the Needler. And then instead of having an alternate BR in your hands, you have a Neelder, it’s own, unique, completely special weapon.

Making 2 of every gun is not balanced. The UNSC sandbox on it’s own is balanced.

The Covy weapons should be like adding hot sauce to the game. It should feel like a unique situation being assaulted by a guy with a Plasma Rifle, or getting jumped, surprised, and chased down by a Sword. Not like you’re just fighting another noob with an AR, or shot in the face by some corner camper with a shotty.

16

> > > Halo 1 and Halo Reach were the two best games in this category. Most weapons felt useful in their own regard, whereas in Halo 2/3 the feeling of redundancy ran rampant!
> >
> > This was definitely “improved” vastly in Reach. This is most evident in the way they traded out the Beam Rifle for the Sentinel-Beam-like Focus Rifle. It was a great stride towards the original concept, but we still had redundancies such as the DMR, Magnum, and Needle Rifle which were all basically single-shot midranged weapons. You could argue that the Needle Rifle had a super-combine, but being able to pull it off became far less frequent when dealing with smaller targets. Even less so with multiplayer since you are primarily dealing with enemies that have shields.
>
> I personally adore all of the Covenant variety; I’m one of those Halo fans that plays for the alien tech, but I agree that a lot of weapons are redundant, like the Repeater, Spiker, Needle Rifle, Magnum, etc., that serve no outside purpose and are even less powerful than their counterparts. I say dump half of the Covy weapons and some of the UNSC weapons and add Forerunner weaponry that are fun and amazing to use. I personally would love to see a sweet looking Forerunner sniper rifle. But I personally would love for the Focus Rifle to stay.

Bungie complained about redundance, yet they created the useless Repeater… IMO they should’ve just kept the Plasma Rifle and had its stun ability return and kept the Spiker as a shredder. The would’ve eliminated all the close range redundancy.

As for the Magnum, DMR and NR… all those weapons are highly needed and are not redundant. You can’t really have a game of one gun per role because that would get boring over an extended period for normal players out there. Since this is a game of multiple factions fighting with/against each other, it just wouldn’t make sense to only have one gun per role.

The way they could alter it though is how each gun performs, which I personally think they excelled with Reach (aside from the aforementioned Repeater). The Magnum shot pretty fast and was only good in that close-mid range in that sweet spot between the AR and DMR. The DMR was good for mid-long range and the NR the same thing, but the NR just felt different and had different properties, which is why I disagree with the redundancy thing.

17

If the last game was Halo 3, I would agree completely, but I don’t think this is a relevent discussion post-Reach unless 343i messes up.

> The Sentinel Beam/Focus Rifle is certainly unique, but my only qualm with it is that there is almost always a better weapon to use in any given scenario.

Well this argument is that it’s just underpowered. I use it quite regularly on The Package just outside Sword Base. It’s also cool to use in multiplayer and is surprisingly undervalued. Of course it’s not as desirable as a Sniper Rifle, but it’s still useful at many ranges.

18

I don’t see anything wrong with variety at all. It all comes down to personal preference. No one ever brought up the “redundancy” argument until Bungie told everyone that was the reason they cut half the weapons out of the sandbox for Reach.

19

> Putting aside my want for new shinny things, and my love for the CE sandbox, so I can attempt a non-biased response; also making a rather large assumption that there will be no Covenant weaponry in Halo 4.
>
> Halo needs niche weapons. Each weapon should have a situation where it will beat most other weapons. This doesn’t mean we can only have a small palette of weapons, though. Expanding game-play mechanics and features means that we can introduce new weapons, with little overlap.
>
> For example, here is a list of weapons that will each have their own niche:
> * Utility Rifle. Best effective mid-range precision.
> * Sniper Rifle. Best effective anti-infantry long range.
> * Continuous Rifle (eg: Focus Rifle). Mid to long range suppression.
> * Shield -Yoink!- pistol (eg: PP). Most effective in close quarters with use of a secondary weapon to finish kill.
> * Lunging Melee weapon (aka Sword). CQC Offense.
> * Shotgun. Close quarters against numerous enemies, reload changes the niche to a more defensive one.
> * Assault Rifle. Automatic, thus less accurate, less powerful. Suppression/Defensive weapon.
> * Small arms pistol. high rate of fire compared to Utility weapon meaning it is better in close quarters, but still effective at a medium range, just less accurate.
> * Light Machine Gun. Powerful but inaccurate, large clip, similar niche to AR, but closer combat, better against vehicles, and more offensive.
> * Shield stripping assault rifle (such as PRifle). Best used in conjunction with another weapon to finish a kill quickly.
> * Rockets… Required.
> * Spartan Laser, best used against vehicles, but balanced for use anti-infantry. Quick kill, low ammunition.
> * Grenade Launcher. Close quarters, around corners, set as mine, or Vehicle disabling.
> * Secondary Assault Rifle (eg: PRep). Good kill finisher, slower than a headshot, but more guaranteed kill.
> * Concussion/FRG/Brute-shot. Merge the three. Powerful suppression, great against CQC weaponry in a larger combat space.
>
> You could take that list, almost double it, and tinker with the duplicated to make counterpart weapons, and you could still have a solid sandbox.
> What Reach did wrong, IMO, is make weapons too similar. Like Spiker/PRif, Hammer & Sword, DMR/Needler (although that is an exception due to the counterpart rule), etc.
>
> You can expand a sandbox without overlapping too much, that is what I think they should do.

Thank you, someone else who wants a light machine gun. I have been wanting one for a long -Yoink- time! And I think it could work well in Halo. Although I would disagree with it being a close range weapon. I think medium range would work better but give it a lot of recoil so that sustained fire makes the barrel rise, similar to the SMG. Then it could serve the purpose of a continuous fire weapon like the Focus Rifle, but the UNSC equivalent. Difference being it has to reload instead of overheat. Or even better idea, make the light machine gun overheat with sustained fire, since that is an actual real world problem. Then if it was a mid range weapon it could feel more balanced since despite being very powerful, it overheats, as well as maybe having a long reload time.

20

Bring on the LMG!!!