Please bring back Firefight Limited, with some tweaks

I want to add my voice to those who are disappointed by the removal of the Firefight Limited playlist. I know it was the playlist with the smallest population, but quantity is not quality.

I’m really kind of surprised it was removed. I can’t see that it was hurting anything, and the people who played it regularly were pretty serious about it. More important, I find the lack of a four-person “normal” Firefight playlist to be a peculiar void in the playlists. With its removal we are left with only one option for groups of three or four people who want to play together, and it’s a game type that presents no challenge or incentive to work together as a team.

Why I prefer Limited over Arcade:

  • Limited encourages teamwork. It’s in everyone’s best interest to beat the game both for the personal satisfaction and to maximize the credit payout, and that’s far more likely to happen if people work together as a team than as four lone wolves trying to outscore one another, which is what Firefight Arcade games end up being. Arcade games are no-brainers. Infinite lives mean they never end early. Just play until they end and collect your credits.

  • Limited requires skill and strategy to complete the game. Arcade games have infinite lives, overshields, infinite ammo, and power weapons. There is no challenge. I played a game of Arcadefight in Firefight doubles recently in which the other person died 28 times. Where’s the skill in that? Frankly, I don’t really know how you can die 28 times in a game where you have overshields, infinite ammo, and power weapons, but he did it.

  • Limited is far more social. Because it’s the only Firefight playlist that encourages teamwork, it’s also the only one where people are likely to be using mikes and communicating. I’ve also found the regulars to be a different kind of player. It’s not a playlist for kids who just want to goof around and rack up a bunch of credits. A substantial majority of the people on my friends list are people I’ve met in Firefight Limited games.

Killing the Firefight Limited playlist was the easy way out. Tweaking it to give it a broader appeal would require some effort, but I think that’s the better option as there really should be a 4-player Firefight playlist that offers a more classic Firefight experience.

Here are some changes I think would improve it and make it more popular:

  • Increase the credit payouts. If you beat Limited, the payouts seem roughly equivalent to those for Arcadefight, but the Limited game took ten minutes longer and a lot more skill and teamwork. I think this disparity in reward for time and effort invested is a big reason the Arcade playlist is more popular. Firefight Arcade has the reputation of being the way to get easy credits. Whenever someone has started a thread on the Bungie forum asking the fastest way to earn credits without cheap tricks, “play Firefight Arcade” and “complete the challenges” are the stock answers. Since an Arcade game runs 20 minutes and a Limited game runs 30 minutes and is harder, it should pay out 50% more credits.

  • Tweak the games to make them a little bit easier to complete and reduce scenarios where even good players working as a team will get overwhelmed. It’s particularly frustrating to be swarmed by a drop pod of Elite Ultras that not only wipe out your entire team, but then they hang out in your crib so you have to spawn somewhere else and then face them with your stock weapons. In my experience, trying to take down two or three Elite Ultras hot on your butt with a DMR and an assault rifle is an exercise in futility. All of the Firefight Limited game types should, in my opinion, be tweaked to make them a little easier to complete.

People who want a more serious challenge can play Legendary Ltd, which almost no one played in the old playlist because it was too difficult. I never played a game of generator defense where we beat the game, and most of them didn’t last 10 minutes. I think the difficulty level was another reason the playlist was less popular than it could have been.

  • Offer Firefight Limited-specific challenges. For example, this week’s weekly challenge (complete four sets in a co-op Firefight game) can be completed in less than 18 minutes with the right custom game. A much better challenge would have been to complete four games of Firefight Limited.

  • Make it so players can stockpile a few good weapons for tough situations. One of the more frustrating aspects of these games is that good weapons despawn, sometimes only seconds after you’ve swapped them for another weapon. For example, I dropped a fully loaded FRG last night in a doubles game of Limited to use the Target Locator, and when I was done, the FRG was gone. This is particularly problematic when there are only two players as you often want different weapons for different enemies.

  • Allow more rounds of voting so we’re less likely to get stuck playing less popular maps like Waterfront.

  • Fix the bug on Outpost were DMRs and Spartan Lasers dropped on the roof of the main building can’t be picked up again.

On the one hand I know it seems late in the life of Reach to be tweaking gameplay in Firefight, but since Halo Anniversary will be using the same Firefight gameplay and adds a new Firefight map, it would make sense to tweak it to offer a standard Firefight playlist for everyone who wants to play Firefight.

Here are some reasons the current alternatives are poor substitutes:

  • Arcade is just a mindless way to get credits. No teamwork, no strategy, no penalty for playing stupidly, no socializing.

  • Firefight Doubles has a Limited game you can vote to play, but unless the other person is a friend who also wants to play Limited the chances of it winning the vote are slim. The game’s difficulty is poorly scaled. It’s almost impossible to complete a Limited game in Doubles on most of the maps, and that’s on Heroic. And for obvious reasons there’s no Legendary option. My regular Limited buddy correctly observed that Limited games with two people require a much more defensive approach. There’s a good chance you’re going to spend the entire game holed up in an area you think you can defend. You can’t really relax at all because there are only two of you. You can’t introduce friends to other friends because that requires having at least three players.

  • Custom Firefight games earn a small fraction of the credits you get in a matchmade game. I routinely got over 6000 credits from a complete game of Limited, as opposed to less than 500 from a custom game.

I hope 343 will reconsider this decision and do the right thing to have a 4-player Firefight playlist that offers a normal version of Firefight that requires some skill, thinking, and strategy instead of just a free-for-all of power weapons and infinite ammo.

If there’s a good reason a small playlist is a bad thing then at least I’d like to know that reason. Why does 343 care if only a thousand people play it? I don’t know how to estimate the total number of people who played it since they weren’t all on at once, but given that I’ve seen 200 people playing it concurrently, obviously there are a lot more who play it at some time of the day. Does it consume resources that can’t be justified by such small numbers? Co-op campaign numbers aren’t much higher, but it wasn’t removed. If there’s a reason it was a bad idea to keep it, I’d like to know what that reason is, and if there isn’t, then please put it back.

WHATTTTTTTT ?!

They took out FF Limited ? Why would they do that ?

I haven’t been playing Halo Reacharound due to Gears3 and Batman AC, but I WAS planning on going back to it when Halo CE: comes out. Mainly for the new maps and new FF additions.

Limited was the only reason I played FF. Arcade is just boring and poop.

Now that I think about it maybe they took it out because of the new additions they are adding with Halo CE:, hmm… maybe.

Thank you sky for you eloquent comments and proposals. Please people of the halo world, rally together and post for the return of FF LTD!

I don’t understand why all of the sudden posts for the removal of Firefight limited. Nobody talked about it when it existed and out of nowhere everyone is wanting it back. The low population of that playlist is what killed it. You may have enjoyed it OP, but in notion to all the other playlists it was pretty pointless to keep it around. It was always less than 500 players even during prime hours.

:confused:

> - Increase the credit payouts.

Increasing the credit payout does not fix the problem, it simply makes more people play it and when the cR Payout bonus is gone, people will go to.

Bungie’s Super Jackpot Weekends proved this, Flagstravaganza for example was on an average sized population, the Super Jackpot came along, it increased to 10-15k for the weekend and dropped back down.

Just my input.

> I don’t understand why all of the sudden posts for the removal of Firefight limited. Nobody talked about it when it existed

Because we just played it. I played it every night for the past three months at least, but I never talked about it.

> and out of nowhere everyone is wanting it back.

It’s not “out of nowhere.” It’s in response to it going away. Most people who played didn’t even know it was scheduled for removal because they just play the game. They don’t read all the latest news updates about it. I only learned about it the last night because someone in a match sent the people in my party a message thanking us for being good teammates in his last game of Limited because it was going away the next day. None of the friends with whom I played new about it until they signed in and it was gone.

> The low population of that playlist is what killed it.

343 killed it. Low population was their excuse, but so far no one has explained to me why they care. If a few hundred Halo fans love it and play more Halo because of it, why not just keep it?

> You may have enjoyed it OP, but in notion to all the other playlists it was pretty pointless to keep it around. It was always less than 500 players even during prime hours.

So what if it wasn’t a large playlist? It might have been pointless to you, but not to the hundreds, perhaps a few thousand total people who played it, people who paid for the game, pay for Xbox Live, and expect to be able to keep playing what is essentially a core game type, 4-person standard Firefight. You don’t have an argument here since as far as I know there was no downside to keeping it. It’s set up and running automatically on servers independently of the number of people who play. The co-op campaign playlist is pretty small too. Should that one be removed as well?

> > - Increase the credit payouts.
>
> Increasing the credit payout does not fix the problem, it simply makes more people play it and when the cR Payout bonus is gone, people will go to.
>
> Bungie’s Super Jackpot Weekends proved this, Flagstravaganza for example was on an average sized population, the Super Jackpot came along, it increased to 10-15k for the weekend and dropped back down.
>
> Just my input.

I wasn’t talking about jackpots. I was talking about the normal payout. A lot of people play Arcade over Limited because it’s easier, the games are 10 minutes shorter, and the credit payouts are about the same. As much as I loved limited even I would sometimes play an Arcade game or two for the easy credits.

They should bring back Firefight Limited back but as close to ODST’s Firefight as possible.

> Here are some changes I think would improve it and make it more popular:
>
> - Increase the credit payouts. If you beat Limited, the payouts seem roughly equivalent to those for Arcadefight, but the Limited game took ten minutes longer and a lot more skill and teamwork. I think this disparity in reward for time and effort invested is a big reason the Arcade playlist is more popular. Firefight Arcade has the reputation of being the way to get easy credits. Whenever someone has started a thread on the Bungie forum asking the fastest way to earn credits without cheap tricks, “play Firefight Arcade” and “complete the challenges” are the stock answers. Since an Arcade game runs 20 minutes and a Limited game runs 30 minutes and is harder, it should pay out 50% more credits.
>
> - Tweak the games to make them a little bit easier to complete and reduce scenarios where even good players working as a team will get overwhelmed. It’s particularly frustrating to be swarmed by a drop pod of Elite Ultras that not only wipe out your entire team, but then they hang out in your crib so you have to spawn somewhere else and then face them with your stock weapons. In my experience, trying to take down two or three Elite Ultras hot on your butt with a DMR and an assault rifle is an exercise in futility. All of the Firefight Limited game types should, in my opinion, be tweaked to make them a little easier to complete.
>
> People who want a more serious challenge can play Legendary Ltd, which almost no one played in the old playlist because it was too difficult. I never played a game of generator defense where we beat the game, and most of them didn’t last 10 minutes. I think the difficulty level was another reason the playlist was less popular than it could have been.
>
> - Offer Firefight Limited-specific challenges. For example, this week’s weekly challenge (complete four sets in a co-op Firefight game) can be completed in less than 18 minutes with the right custom game. A much better challenge would have been to complete four games of Firefight Limited.
>
> - Make it so players can stockpile a few good weapons for tough situations. One of the more frustrating aspects of these games is that good weapons despawn, sometimes only seconds after you’ve swapped them for another weapon. For example, I dropped a fully loaded FRG last night in a doubles game of Limited to use the Target Locator, and when I was done, the FRG was gone. This is particularly problematic when there are only two players as you often want different weapons for different enemies.
>
> - Allow more rounds of voting so we’re less likely to get stuck playing less popular maps like Waterfront.
>
> - Fix the bug on Outpost were DMRs and Spartan Lasers dropped on the roof of the main building can’t be picked up again.
>
> On the one hand I know it seems late in the life of Reach to be tweaking gameplay in Firefight, but since Halo Anniversary will be using the same Firefight gameplay and adds a new Firefight map, it would make sense to tweak it to offer a standard Firefight playlist for everyone who wants to play Firefight.

I agree with you that the niche of a classic 4 player firefight experience should be present and in order to sustain that they should increase the credits given as a bonus of how long you have survived.

> > > - Increase the credit payouts.
> >
> > Increasing the credit payout does not fix the problem, it simply makes more people play it and when the cR Payout bonus is gone, people will go to.
> >
> > Bungie’s Super Jackpot Weekends proved this, Flagstravaganza for example was on an average sized population, the Super Jackpot came along, it increased to 10-15k for the weekend and dropped back down.
> >
> > Just my input.
>
> I wasn’t talking about jackpots. I was talking about the normal payout. A lot of people play Arcade over Limited because it’s easier, the games are 10 minutes shorter, and the credit payouts are about the same. As much as I loved limited even I would sometimes play an Arcade game or two for the easy credits.

It’s the same really, increasing cR Payouts doesn’t fix a playlist, it plagues more into a playlist with problems.

> I don’t understand why all of the sudden posts for the removal of Firefight limited. Nobody talked about it when it existed and out of nowhere everyone is wanting it back.

Of course nobody talked about it, nothing was/is wrong with it. People tend to only talk about problems and dislikes.

Also, the population was so low because the majority of people who play this game are casuals who could care less about competition. They just want to jetpack thru the air fuel rodding everything.

> > I wasn’t talking about jackpots. I was talking about the normal payout. A lot of people play Arcade over Limited because it’s easier, the games are 10 minutes shorter, and the credit payouts are about the same. As much as I loved limited even I would sometimes play an Arcade game or two for the easy credits.
>
> It’s the same really, increasing cR Payouts doesn’t fix a playlist, it plagues more into a playlist with problems.

An imbalance in credit payouts will discourage a lot of casual players from playing something they might otherwise play. You keep talking about fixing the playlist, but ways to improve the playlist is a different issue. The playlist could benefit from some changes, which I outlined. But my comments about the credit payouts is still valid on its own merits. Games that require more skill and last longer should have bigger payouts.

Nobody even played it anyway. Why bring it back?

> Nobody even played it anyway. Why bring it back?

Isn’t this kind of a jerk attitude?

> It’s the same really, increasing cR Payouts doesn’t fix a playlist, it plagues more into a playlist with problems.

What are you talking about?

Basically 343’s main problem with Limited was that it had the lowest population. Increasing payouts in Limited, definitely relative to the other FF playlists, would help alleviate that problem.

That’s not to say that either SkyTag, me, or anyone else believes the playlist should come back exactly as it was and can’t be improved on a gametype basis.

Anyway, to SkyTag, one of the other reasons they removed it was because they were running out of space for playlists (that’s 343i’s David Ellis).

I think we’re going to have to work on the assumption that there won’t be any more than three firefight playlists going forward.

Which, to my mind, means Arcade needs to die.

Doubles is kind of like limited, it’s basically score attack with two players.

I don’t understand the hate that Arcade gets…it’s called “Arcade” for a reason you know? Of course it’s going to be more laid back and silly compared to Limited. Limited was a more serious environment.

I personally play Score Attack. Challenging and I’m all by my lonesome.

It gets boring though as it’s the same waves all the time. Grunts, then Jackals, then stupid Brutes (who more often than not stick themselves with grenades instead of me), the ever annoying Skirmishers, and the Elite horde that just charges you with reckless abandon at the end. They need to change it up every once in awhile, randomize the waves or something.

I agree with increased payouts too, a greater incentive could lure people in and they might even find that they like the gametype.

Excellent post sir. I most assuredly feel your frustration. Although the FF limited playlist numbers were small, the population was consistent in all but the most obscure hours of the day. Search times for games were not unbearable and most of the players were very dedicated to the playlist. For us, FF limited was a key reason why we played reach; it was what made the game enjoyable to us. This is why many of us are so bewildered and ultimately frustrated by its removal.

I would humbly offer my own service record as an example - hundreds of FF limited games logged - all relatively consistent. What factors lead to 343’s decision? The playlist did not have downward trend in population - in consistently held several hundred players. What about games logged? There must have been thousands of FF limited games played per week. Did 343 look at these statistics?

As you mention, why take away a core game mechanic? Reach has 3 essential mechanics: multiplayer, campaign, and firefight. All game modes are playable online for credits. Limited was closest to FF’s ODST roots - arcade does not do justice to the FF gametype. Cooperative campaign’s population was hardly above FF limited, often with only a few hundred players. I cannot recall when it was last consistently above 1,000.

What may be most confounding, is that literally days before the launch of a new, much-anticipated FF map, an essential FF playlist is eliminated. Why? If FF limited was to ultimately be culled, why not at least wait until sometime after the release of new map that is being promoted? Many of us have been eagerly awaiting the limited game play experience on this map. If this map is only playable in matchmaking via arcade, why would one be tempted to use the chain gun warthog when a FRG and jetpack are available as a loadout? Why would one venture out on the map for a strategic position and make timely use of the man cannon back to base, again when a FRG and jetpack are available at spawn?

As you mentioned OP, it would just be nice to understand 343’s logic as to the removal of FF limited. I could hardly wait to read today’s bulletin, hoping that given the large number of posts about limited in the past week, that 343 may address its removal, if even just a sentence or 2 to give us more than the “slow death” nonsense from last week’s bulletin.

I have not yet lost faith in 343, and we can only hope that a new FF playlist (similar to your suggestions above) is released, or at very least that FF limited can be re-instated. If our FF options remain unchanged from now until November 2012, I fear we can only be further disheartened at the prospects for firefight in Halo 4…

With much respect and admiration, please 343, let us have a firefight gametype in reach worth playing!

> They should bring back Firefight Limited back but as close to ODST’s Firefight as possible.

This,

I wanted to play firefight limited but it felt just like firefight arcade with lives and no power weapons, As in we rushed to compete for score there was no team work there was no end of the world kind of survival tactics just a less hectic FF arcade where you got less credits/kills and anther way to lose.

I think that if FF limited was changed to remove set/game time limits and could go on forever and removed gaining credits purely from game length(so not OP at credit farming) but longer the game the more kills so the more credits you get.

Doing this would make people who want a ODST FF matchmaking happy (which is what i think the point of FF limited was for)

No news about FF in the weekly bulletin; only pumpkins and dumb and superficial info about almost NOTHING. -Yoink- move, 343.