While I know that spawn locations are key to game play in Halo MP I really do feel like if players can 100% predict where people will spawn then the game has a fundamental flaw
Being spawn killed is never fun, remember how bad Halo 1 spawns are. You can literally not spawn on another side of the map.
> 2533274812438213;2:
> Being spawn killed is never fun, remember how bad Halo 1 spawns are. You can literally not spawn on another side of the map.
Yeeee. It’s even worse in H5 where you can know exactly when and where people are going to spawn in maps that put verticality over horizontal map sizes.
You want to see how broken spawns are watch any H5 sniper compilation. People are getting getting sniped literally as soon as they spawn. That’s a big uh oh in development
> 2533274816803169;3:
> > 2533274812438213;2:
> > Being spawn killed is never fun, remember how bad Halo 1 spawns are. You can literally not spawn on another side of the map.
>
> Yeeee. It’s even worse in H5 where you can know exactly when and where people are going to spawn in maps that put verticality over horizontal map sizes.
>
> You want to see how broken spawns are watch any H5 sniper compilation. People are getting getting sniped literally as soon as they spawn. That’s a big uh oh in development
Entirely agree here.
Fundamentally spawning rules should come down to a series of IF conditions:
- If enemy has line of sight: don’t spawn here - If enemy within certain 3d distance radius: don’t spawn hereIf having run through those no available spawn locations are found then the ‘least worst’ should be chosen - e.g. no line of sight, but enemy within the certain distance radius
I understand why having spawns allocated to certain teams can be good in some modes, but it just makes things too predictable unless there are some alternates
> 2533274816803169;3:
> > 2533274812438213;2:
> > Being spawn killed is never fun, remember how bad Halo 1 spawns are. You can literally not spawn on another side of the map.
>
> Yeeee. It’s even worse in H5 where you can know exactly when and where people are going to spawn in maps that put verticality over horizontal map sizes.
>
> You want to see how broken spawns are watch any H5 sniper compilation. People are getting getting sniped literally as soon as they spawn. That’s a big uh oh in development
It’s tough when it comes to a pure arena shooter like Halo. Spawn killing has been a thing since CE. Honestly the only realistic solution is to have giant maps so that way it’s impossible to spawn kill because you can’t reach the other side of the map while they are spawning. I however don’t think this is a good idea because it would severely slow down gameplay.
Yes, spawning is very important, and I think 343 understands this. Sure it’s not perfect, but H5 probably does spawning better than any of the other games. Being able to control where the enemy team is spawning is an important part of multiplayer, especially at higher levels. I agree that you should not be able to stick your scope on the head of a player right as they spawn. I’d like to see line of site being implemented somehow in the spawning calculation but I’m not sure it is as easy as stated above. Line of site is something that would need to be constantly calculated, and I don’t think that this is something the server/engine has traditionally been processing in multiplayer. I believe it has been based mainly on proximity and map design has placed spawn locations to be protected from most of the angles on the map.
Spawning should be based on whether the player will spawn within line of sight on an enemy and how close an enemy is.
In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
> 2614366390849210;8:
> In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
There’s a difference between a team having map control and spawn killing: map control you may well keep an enemy team separated and be able to take them out quickly. Spawn killing you’re specifically setting up to be able to shoot people when they’re defenceless upon spawning
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> > 2614366390849210;8:
> > In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
>
> There’s a difference between a team having map control and spawn killing: map control you may well keep an enemy team separated and be able to take them out quickly. Spawn killing you’re specifically setting up to be able to shoot people when they’re defenceless upon spawning
A while back I am pretty sure I read a post where map control and spawn killing were discussed and one of the game developers for the multiplayer on one of the previous halo games said that they intentionally included spawn killing as skill and as part of the map control aspect of the game. Designing the game to encourage spawn killing seems counter productive for creating a fun multiplayer with fair starts. Spawn killing is something that is not completely avoidable but there should be something implemented to generate alternative spawn locations out of line of sight of enemy players most of the time.
> 2535405142932928;10:
> > 2533274874872263;9:
> > > 2614366390849210;8:
> > > In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
> >
> > There’s a difference between a team having map control and spawn killing: map control you may well keep an enemy team separated and be able to take them out quickly. Spawn killing you’re specifically setting up to be able to shoot people when they’re defenceless upon spawning
>
> A while back I am pretty sure I read a post where map control and spawn killing were discussed and one of the game developers for the multiplayer on one of the previous halo games said that they intentionally included spawn killing as skill and as part of the map control aspect of the game. Designing the game to encourage spawn killing seems counter productive for creating a fun multiplayer with fair starts. Spawn killing is something that is not completely avoidable but there should be something implemented to generate alternative spawn locations out of line of sight of enemy players most of the time.
Precisely. The technical implications are very easy to implement.
The older arguments were around specifically for competitive where giving a team the ipper hand to do it would be uncommon at best.
I do agree that spawn camping and spawn killing are definitely annoying and very frustrating when you are on the receiving end. Again it is a tricky thing to balance. Even if you implement something like a line of sight check to spawn, there is nothing preventing an enemy player from simply moving behind a wall somewhere to break line of sight, wait for the spawn timer to end and for you to spawn, and then peeking back out to shoot you. The same goes with a distance radius for spawning. Eventually players will figure out what the distance is for spawning and will merely wait outside just long enough for you to spawn and then swoop in for the kill. Granted if the spawn distance is long enough then you would at least have a chance to get your bearings first but if someone has a sniper they can basically see across the entire map at any time on most Halo maps. Spawns are always a really tricky thing to get right but I think having a discussion about it is always helpful. Maybe some of these ideas will be useful but again I think it’ll come down to map design as it always does.
> 2533274874872263;11:
> > 2535405142932928;10:
> > > 2533274874872263;9:
> > > > 2614366390849210;8:
> > > > In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
> > >
> > > There’s a difference between a team having map control and spawn killing: map control you may well keep an enemy team separated and be able to take them out quickly. Spawn killing you’re specifically setting up to be able to shoot people when they’re defenceless upon spawning
> >
> > A while back I am pretty sure I read a post where map control and spawn killing were discussed and one of the game developers for the multiplayer on one of the previous halo games said that they intentionally included spawn killing as skill and as part of the map control aspect of the game. Designing the game to encourage spawn killing seems counter productive for creating a fun multiplayer with fair starts. Spawn killing is something that is not completely avoidable but there should be something implemented to generate alternative spawn locations out of line of sight of enemy players most of the time.
>
> Precisely. The technical implications are very easy to implement.
>
> The older arguments were around specifically for competitive where giving a team the ipper hand to do it would be uncommon at best.
Trying to 100% ensure spawn kills will never happen means it’s almost impossible to have spawns anywhere but inside an enclosed room… like, how can you possibly guarantee a spawn can NEVER be visible from ANY other point on the map without only shoving them into enclosed spaces?
You should just look at the improvements in terms of spawn placements and algorithms that have taken place from CE to H5 and appreciate how much better it is now.
Like I said, in a game that’s all about power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing 100%. If you’d like to be more of the spawn-controller than the spawn-controlled, I’d recommend looking up some videos from Shyway. He has some videos explaining H5 spawns (a lot of it the systems are similar to H3) in detail, and then lots of videos breaking down how pros use the spawn system to inform their decisions mid- game.
(This is for everyone in the convo, not just you. Not trying to call single anyone out)
> 2614366390849210;13:
> > 2533274874872263;11:
> > > 2535405142932928;10:
> > > > 2533274874872263;9:
> > > > > 2614366390849210;8:
> > > > > In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
> > > >
> > > > There’s a difference between a team having map control and spawn killing: map control you may well keep an enemy team separated and be able to take them out quickly. Spawn killing you’re specifically setting up to be able to shoot people when they’re defenceless upon spawning
> > >
> > > A while back I am pretty sure I read a post where map control and spawn killing were discussed and one of the game developers for the multiplayer on one of the previous halo games said that they intentionally included spawn killing as skill and as part of the map control aspect of the game. Designing the game to encourage spawn killing seems counter productive for creating a fun multiplayer with fair starts. Spawn killing is something that is not completely avoidable but there should be something implemented to generate alternative spawn locations out of line of sight of enemy players most of the time.
> >
> > Precisely. The technical implications are very easy to implement.
> >
> > The older arguments were around specifically for competitive where giving a team the ipper hand to do it would be uncommon at best.
>
> Trying to 100% ensure spawn kills will never happen means it’s almost impossible to have spawns anywhere but inside an enclosed room… like, how can you possibly guarantee a spawn can NEVER be visible from ANY other point on the map without only shoving them into enclosed spaces?
>
> You should just look at the improvements in terms of spawn placements and algorithms that have taken place from CE to H5 and appreciate how much better it is now.
>
> Like I said, in a game that’s all about power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing 100%. If you’d like to be more of the spawn-controller than the spawn-controlled, I’d recommend looking up some videos from Shyway. He has some videos explaining H5 spawns (a lot of it the systems are similar to H3) in detail, and then lots of videos breaking down how pros use the spawn system to inform their decisions mid- game.
>
> (This is for everyone in the convo, not just you. Not trying to call single anyone out)
Oh totally get you man and thanks for the tip. I agree I don’t think a system where you’re always guaranteed more than a second of safety after spawn is even possible but the logic systen can definitely be improved (or simplified)
> 2614366390849210;13:
> > 2533274874872263;11:
> > > 2535405142932928;10:
> > > > 2533274874872263;9:
> > > > > 2614366390849210;8:
> > > > > In an arena game where the whole game play focus is on power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing being a possibility. Especially if a team gets both those things and the power weapon ammo hasn’t been used much yet.
> > > >
> > > > There’s a difference between a team having map control and spawn killing: map control you may well keep an enemy team separated and be able to take them out quickly. Spawn killing you’re specifically setting up to be able to shoot people when they’re defenceless upon spawning
> > >
> > > A while back I am pretty sure I read a post where map control and spawn killing were discussed and one of the game developers for the multiplayer on one of the previous halo games said that they intentionally included spawn killing as skill and as part of the map control aspect of the game. Designing the game to encourage spawn killing seems counter productive for creating a fun multiplayer with fair starts. Spawn killing is something that is not completely avoidable but there should be something implemented to generate alternative spawn locations out of line of sight of enemy players most of the time.
> >
> > Precisely. The technical implications are very easy to implement.
> >
> > The older arguments were around specifically for competitive where giving a team the ipper hand to do it would be uncommon at best.
>
> Trying to 100% ensure spawn kills will never happen means it’s almost impossible to have spawns anywhere but inside an enclosed room… like, how can you possibly guarantee a spawn can NEVER be visible from ANY other point on the map without only shoving them into enclosed spaces?
>
> You should just look at the improvements in terms of spawn placements and algorithms that have taken place from CE to H5 and appreciate how much better it is now.
>
> Like I said, in a game that’s all about power weapon control and map control, you’ll never get rid of spawn killing 100%. If you’d like to be more of the spawn-controller than the spawn-controlled, I’d recommend looking up some videos from Shyway. He has some videos explaining H5 spawns (a lot of it the systems are similar to H3) in detail, and then lots of videos breaking down how pros use the spawn system to inform their decisions mid- game.
>
> (This is for everyone in the convo, not just you. Not trying to call single anyone out)
I agree that spawn killing cannot be eliminated completely and 343 should not obsess over it. However it should not be the primary method for controlling the map. Being able to for the most part shut a team down with repeated kills on spawn doesn’t make for fun gameplay.
> 2533274816803169;3:
> > 2533274812438213;2:
> > Being spawn killed is never fun, remember how bad Halo 1 spawns are. You can literally not spawn on another side of the map.
>
> Yeeee. It’s even worse in H5 where you can know exactly when and where people are going to spawn in maps that put verticality over horizontal map sizes.
>
> You want to see how broken spawns are watch any H5 sniper compilation. People are getting getting sniped literally as soon as they spawn. That’s a big uh oh in development
The main issue is that it’s relatively difficult to make a spawning algorithm which is efficient while still being difficult to exploit and this do especially apply to smaller maps where you will inevitably be relatively close to enemies. In addition to that, high tiered multiplayer players do also usually focus on optimizing the use of all in game mechanics and this includes mechanics like the respawning system.
probably there should be some factors including enemy line of sight
better proximity detection
squad spawning
and possibly some invincibility for a couple seconds to keep safe from spawnkilling
> 2533274874872263;4:
> > 2533274816803169;3:
> > > 2533274812438213;2:
> > > Being spawn killed is never fun, remember how bad Halo 1 spawns are. You can literally not spawn on another side of the map.
> >
> > Yeeee. It’s even worse in H5 where you can know exactly when and where people are going to spawn in maps that put verticality over horizontal map sizes.
> >
> > You want to see how broken spawns are watch any H5 sniper compilation. People are getting getting sniped literally as soon as they spawn. That’s a big uh oh in development
>
> Entirely agree here.
>
> Fundamentally spawning rules should come down to a series of IF conditions:
>
>
> - If enemy has line of sight: don’t spawn here - If enemy within certain 3d distance radius: don’t spawn hereIf having run through those no available spawn locations are found then the ‘least worst’ should be chosen - e.g. no line of sight, but enemy within the certain distance radius
>
> I understand why having spawns allocated to certain teams can be good in some modes, but it just makes things too predictable unless there are some alternates
That’s literally how it works in Halo 5. There’s settings for it and everything.
Spawns still need to be somewhat predictable. Learning the spawn patterns is a part of playing Halo at a high level, and not just for being able to spawn camp the enemy team. The harsh reality is that if you are being camped to the point where you can’t get out of your spawn, then you were outplayed. (I say this as someone who hasn’t ever really spawn locked anyone and has been on the receiving end of it many times).
> 2806037446402987;19:
> Spawns still need to be somewhat predictable. Learning the spawn patterns is a part of playing Halo at a high level, and not just for being able to spawn camp the enemy team. The harsh reality is that if you are being camped to the point where you can’t get out of your spawn, then you were outplayed. (I say this as someone who hasn’t ever really spawn locked anyone and has been on the receiving end of it many times).
some people are too toxic to handle spawn killing and getting outplayed and report them, so the players that are good actually get sent to the bad reputation line