Personal Loadouts CAN Work

When browsing and perusing these forums, I constantly see comments like “Loadouts ruined Halo” and the like, without giving proper validation for these claims. Yes, many of the choices in loadouts have resulted in unsavory gameplay and destroyed the “Equal Starts” principle that Halo’s multiplayer is built on. However, “equal” and “identical” aren’t necessarily the same (I can’t tell you how often I have to point that out). To explain what I mean, let’s disassemble Personal Loadouts and see what the problems are:

  • Currently, the ‘Primary Weapon’ list consists of 3 short-to-mid range automatics (AR, SR, Suppressor); 2 mid-range precision rifles (BR, Carbine); and 2 long-range precision rifles (DMR, LR). The way I see it, the DMR/LR shouldn’t be in loadouts due to being effective at ranges well beyond the automatics’ effective range and the fact that they discourage map movement. I see no problem with allowing the choice between an automatic or precision rifle, since they can both be used effectively at short-to-mid range, but falter past that.
  • The ‘Secondary Weapon’ role is currently plagued by two gimmicked sidearms with chargeable “secondary” functions (which they are primarily used for). Namely (and obviously), the Plasma Pistol and Boltshot need to be removed from personal loadouts. The Magnum is an ideal sidearm, but the other two harm vehicular combat and provide a 1-shot-kill capable weapon at spawn, respectively. On a side note, that isn’t to say that a new sidearm that acts as the counterpart to the Magnum couldn’t/shouldn’t be made to fill the void. I’d also like to see the SMG and Plasma Rifle return as automatic sidearms.
  • Grenades… Plasma grenades at-spawn have been a prevalent factor in the problems of vehicular combat’s deterioration and “last-second sticks”. I feel that they should be removed from Personal Loadouts and placed on-map as they have in the past. As for Pulse Grenades, they aren’t particularly on-par or as effective when compared to the other grenade types. I’d like these to also be placed on-map (allowing them to receive a performance boost to make them more useful. I believe it is also a given for the ability to pick up grenades from dead bodies to be reintegrated as an innate ability.
  • Armor Abilities provide additional base abilities to players without them putting in any effort to obtain them. Offering infinitely reusable equipment that each perform drastically different tasks (from increasing vertical movement, to seeing through walls, to essentially becoming invisible, and so on) is not equal. These pieces of equipment should be placed on-map with limited usage (although not necessarily “one-time-use”) to allow for them to add variety to gameplay while adhering to Equal Starts.
  • Tactical Packages/Support Upgrades (more commonly referred to as ‘perks’) give players the choice between several base ability modifiers, such as picking up grenades from fallen friends/foes (Resupply), faster reloading (Dexterity), and how quickly your shields recharge (Recharge). The base abilities are to be balanced to promote quality gameplay, but these modifiers throw off this balance by increasing some aspects differently for each player. These modifiers aren’t compliant with the “equal starts” that Halo is renowned for, and must be left behind, IMO.
    Of course, there also needs to be playlists/gametype variants with Personal Loadouts disabled, but I do believe Personal Loadouts are redeemable. What about you?

> - Grenades… In Halo 4, the Frag, Plasma, and Pulse grenades aren’t properly balanced as equals. The Plasma Grenades are the most dominant, due to being able to ‘stick’ to enemy infantry and vehicles and having around the same blast radius/damage output as the Frags if not more. However, if they were made to have a smaller blast radius than Frags and less damage (still kills ‘stuck’ infantry but takes more than 2 ‘sticks’ to kill a Warthog), I think they could work in Personal Loadouts. As for Pulse Grenades, I feel that they should recieve a buff and be placed exclusively on-map, rather than in loadouts/at-spawn.

I would rather see no loadout, however this is an alternative I would accept. Other than the grenades.

I think loadouts should be limited to frags only. Plasmas don’t need to be nerfed at all. I think they function properly (and have done so prior to H4) as long as you cannot spawn with them. The blast radius between frags & plasmas is pretty much the same I believe. The only difference is that a plasma can kill if you stand almost on top of it. This is countered by frags’ ability to bounce off walls. They both have their upsides. If you lessen the damage from plasmas, it just means frags will be better. If plasmas only kill when stuck, why pick them up? They have no advantages over frags, other than sticking (and more often than not, players do not get stuck).

It should also stay as 2 sticks to kill a vehicle. It takes skill, accuracy, and timing (and a little bit of luck) to stick a moving vehicle. Twice is difficult enough, but 3 times? Remember you’ll have to find a Plasma Pistol on the ground now too. You won’t spawn with it. Which means most of the time, you’ll be attacking without a PP. And if it takes 3 sticks, you might as well just use frags and flip the thing.

> I think loadouts should be limited to frags only. Plasmas don’t need to be nerfed at all. I think they function properly (and have done so prior to H4) as long as you cannot spawn with them. The blast radius between frags & plasmas is pretty much the same I believe. The only difference is that a plasma can kill if you stand almost on top of it. This is countered by frags’ ability to bounce off walls. They both have their upsides. If you lessen the damage from plasmas, it just means frags will be better. If plasmas only kill when stuck, why pick them up? They have no advantages over frags, other than sticking (and more often than not, players do not get stuck).
>
> It should also stay as 2 sticks to kill a vehicle. It takes skill, accuracy, and timing (and a little bit of luck) to stick a moving vehicle. Twice is difficult enough, but 3 times? Remember you’ll have to find a Plasma Pistol on the ground now too. You won’t spawn with it. Which means most of the time, you’ll be attacking without a PP. And if it takes 3 sticks, you might as well just use frags and flip the thing.

I’ve also considered this as a viable alternative. I am a bit “on the fence” about the grenades (as you might have seen by the ellipsis after “Grenades”). I’ve edited the OP to list this possible alternative (don’t know how I forgot to list it initially). Thank you for the input. :slight_smile:

A very good post GHOST.

I think the idea of Custom Loadouts has potential in Halo and I honestly see no need to simply scrap the idea only because the current implementation has failed in balance and equality.
There are several ways to offer balanced, fair and equal starts with Custom Loadouts in my opinion.

Like you know, I agree with you when it comes to the selectable weapons.
I would like to add that loadouts should only contain UNSC and Covenant weaponry. Forerunner weapons should be all superior to their ‘counterparts’, primarily to do the highly advanced Forerunner technology some justice, aside their aesthetics and I think it is easier to make them unique and special when they become their own weapon class instead of trying to fit them into already existing classes.

I don’t think it is necessary to weaken the Plasma Grenade. I think the grenade count should be reduced to 1, for the Sticky as well as for the Frag, to prevent grenade spam on infantry as well as on vehicles.

You know my standpoint on Armor Abilities in loadouts as well.
I think they can fit but definitely not in their current state.
Aside some individual major and minor tweaking, each Armor Ability should have specific limited uses per life to require some tactical thinking again before using an AA and to prevent thoughtless and constant AA-spam.
Nonetheless, I would be ok with on-map AAs like you suggested as well but the concept of AAs at spawn has just become more appealing to me.

Perks simply have to go for several reasons. Especially the game-breaking combinations between them and other items and mechanics is the main issue they are causing and why I think they just do not belong in a game like Halo.
Everything is way easier to balance and implement with default mechanics.

In addition, I think another very important point is that all selectable items in loadouts have to be available from beginning for everyone. There should definitely not be an unlocking system.

nvm

Keep loadouts (balance better), remove personal ordinance, AA’s as map pickups and greatly designed maps for all of this.

And a mix of 3/Reach ranking system.

Check and Mate.

> I don’t think it is necessary to weaken the Plasma Grenade. I think the grenade count should be reduced to 1, for the Sticky as well as for the Frag, to prevent <mark>grenade spam on infantry as well as on vehicles.</mark>

I don’t think there is any need to reduce the grenade count to 1. Plasmas are powerful, and it’s caused problems to be able to spawn with them. Reducing it to 1 grenade would not change that.

As for what I’ve highlighted, I don’t think “grenade spam” is actually anything near a problem. I think that is just a term made up by campers. They were unhappy when they got 'naded out of their corner and couldn’t kill anyone with their shotgun. It’s not difficult to avoid 2 grenades - as long as you move. 2 well placed grenades is not “spam”. Dropping 2 grenades to stop a guy from chasing you is not “spam”. Maybe if one guy threw 5 grenades at you in a row, yeah, that might be spam. But it’s extremely rare for someone to be carrying more than 2 grenades.

I’m with AStreamOfCream. There’s a middle ground here, and it’s between Halo 3 and Reach.

Primary/Sidearm loadouts? Yup.

Grenade loadouts? Not so much, but maybe if you could limit the stickies to 1 (and improve vehicle health) and be ridden of 'nade perks.

AA’s? Possibly, if they’re better balanced. Maybe make some available via loadout and other (more powerful) ones map-based. I’m just reluctant to let my beloved Hologram go :smiley:

Maybe biggest problem with H4 loadouts was the perks. Too much feature, hardly any benefit. These TacPacks and Upgrades sacrificed more core gameplay than PO, Sprint, or other things IMHO.

I agree with this to some extents.

I actually feel the choice of BR, DMR, CC,and LR is appropriate. I find it’s the Automatics that are out of place as primary weapons. Rather the Magnum should get a little but of a buff, preferably in clip size (Say, a 10 or 12 shot clip?), and then the Secondary choices should be Magnum, AR, Storm Rifle, Suppressor.

When it comes to Grenades, Stickies are ONLY the most dominant in BTB, Frags utterly destroy in Infantry combat because, short a direct stick (which is very rare) frags have a wider blast radius and are much harder to avoid damage from than Sticks. Especially with the ability to easily manipulate a frag’s fuse, giving the enemy much less time to dodge.

I feel the problem for both of these grenades (and the shortcoming of Pulses) is because of their frequency of use. Two sticks will kill almost any vehicle in the game, and two frags almost guarantees one or more kills in 4v4s. As such I recommend ONLY spawning us in with 1 nade, no matter which type we select. 1 Grenade spawns was one of those things Halo 2 did right.

Aside from that, we should not have ANY perks to choose from, and we should be naturally able to pick up grenades off spawn. And I personally feel we should NOT spawn with AAs. Heck I’d rather just not have them in the game to be honest -_-. But if they MUST be, put them on the map as pickups, and make them powerful enough for us to vie for.

Also, I think I can solve Ordinance Drops without getting rid of them completely, just make them directly tied to your Loadout. < is your selected Primary, > is your selected Secondary, V is 2x your selected grenade. This would give you an ammo resupply when/if you really need it. Say, for instance, when your Power Weapon is out of ammo you can get your AR back. And if you don’t need an ammo resupply? 2x your chosen grenade gives you a little extra power.

> I’m with AStreamOfCream. There’s a middle ground here, and it’s between Halo 3 and Reach.
>
> Primary/Sidearm loadouts? Yup.
>
> Grenade loadouts? Not so much, but maybe if you could limit the stickies to 1 (and improve vehicle health) and be ridden of 'nade perks.
>
> AA’s? Possibly, if they’re better balanced. Maybe make some available via loadout and other (more powerful) ones map-based. I’m just reluctant to let my beloved Hologram go :smiley:
>
> Maybe biggest problem with H4 loadouts was the perks. Too much feature, hardly any benefit. These TacPacks and Upgrades sacrificed more core gameplay than PO, Sprint, or other things IMHO.

I want a few HUGE maps for more vehicle combat, perhaps on those everybody has a default loadout. Otherwise, see my previous post : )

Custom load outs results in another problem not normally mentioned here on the Forums. There are the plasma pistol/grenade problems, the pocket shot gun problems, and the initial main weapon power imbalances. Would any of these have been a such a big issue if we didn’t have custom load outs. I don’t think so.

Now for the other problem not normally mentioned, that is the complete lack of ammo while playing a match. With everyone spawning with different weapons you very rarely get ammo off of any enemy you take down especially if you decide to use a weapon not normally used by other players. This gets even more compounded when you add the despawn function of dropped weapons created by the POD’s

What ends up happening is I run out of ammo then I have to go and search for it and end up having to take risks I wouldn’t of otherwise. Then basically give the other team a free kill.

Stricter limits on loadouts would help but I still would rather not have them except in games like Spartan Ops, where it would make more sense.

> When browsing and perusing these forums, I constantly see comments like “Loadouts ruined Halo” and the like, without giving proper validation for these claims. Yes, many of the choices in loadouts have resulted in unsavory gameplay and destroyed the “Equal Starts” principle that Halo’s multiplayer is built on. However, “equal” and “identical” aren’t necessarily the same (I can’t tell you how often I have to point that out). To explain what I mean, let’s disassemble Personal Loadouts and see what the problems are:

Hello GHOST,

I couldn’t off said this any better myself.

I agree with everything you have said 100%.

Halo needs to be the Arena Shooter KING again. It deserves to be there.

Halo 4 has improved some things, but destroyed many other things.

I think the discussions between you, SWIFT and I about Loadouts and AA have been great.

I only hope 343 have read the many discussions between us and the other members inputs and can act on it.

Time will tell.

> A very good post GHOST.
>
> I think the idea of Custom Loadouts has potential in Halo and I honestly see no need to simply scrap the idea only because the current implementation has failed in balance and equality.
> There are several ways to offer balanced, fair and equal starts with Custom Loadouts in my opinion.

I completely agree with your above statement.

> Like you know, I agree with you when it comes to the selectable weapons.
> I would like to add that loadouts should only contain UNSC and Covenant weaponry. Forerunner weapons should be all superior to their ‘counterparts’, primarily to do the highly advanced Forerunner technology some justice, aside their aesthetics and I think it is easier to make them unique and special when they become their own weapon class instead of trying to fit them into already existing classes.

I also agree that Forerunner weapons should be all superior to their ‘counterparts’. The Suppressor and Scattershot are jokes.

> I don’t think it is necessary to weaken the Plasma Grenade. I think the grenade count should be reduced to 1, for the Sticky as well as for the Frag, to prevent grenade spam on infantry as well as on vehicles.

I think Plasma is fine. If on map only, should be buffed. Could always have 2 frags or 1 Plasma for grenade choice.
Frags should be as powerful as they were in Halo CE, but Bungie did this in the Halo REACH Beta, and everyone complained they were mini nukes.

> You know my standpoint on Armor Abilities in loadouts as well.
> I think they can fit but definitely not in their current state.
> Aside some individual major and minor tweaking, each Armor Ability should have specific limited uses per life to require some tactical thinking again before using an AA and to prevent thoughtless and constant AA-spam.
> Nonetheless, I would be ok with on-map AAs like you suggested as well but the concept of AAs at spawn has just become more appealing to me.

Swift, this seems to be the only thing we disagree on. But love your idea about AA having single or multiple uses depending on how powerful or weak they are.

> Perks simply have to go for several reasons. Especially the game-breaking combinations between them and other items and mechanics is the main issue they are causing and why I think they just do not belong in a game like Halo.
> Everything is way easier to balance and implemented with default mechanics.

I think everyone agrees that PERKS are not Halo and need to go.

> In addition, I think another very important point is that all selectable items in loadouts have to be available from beginning for everyone. There should definitely not be an unlocking system.

Totally agree with this, everything should be available from your first game.
I am happy for Armour and weapon skins to be unlocked. I hate having to unlock weapons in COD and BF. It totally sucks.

> Also, I think I can solve Ordinance Drops without getting rid of them completely, just make them directly tied to your Loadout. < is your selected Primary, > is your selected Secondary, V is 2x your selected grenade. This would give you an ammo resupply when/if you really need it. Say, for instance, when your Power Weapon is out of ammo you can get your AR back. And if you don’t need an ammo resupply? 2x your chosen grenade gives you a little extra power.

This is a great idea. And is not OP, but very useful.

I be happy with this.

What could “UP” be?

With no re-roll perk, UP is an available option.

> > Also, I think I can solve Ordinance Drops without getting rid of them completely, just make them directly tied to your Loadout. < is your selected Primary, > is your selected Secondary, V is 2x your selected grenade. This would give you an ammo resupply when/if you really need it. Say, for instance, when your Power Weapon is out of ammo you can get your AR back. And if you don’t need an ammo resupply? 2x your chosen grenade gives you a little extra power.
>
> This is a great idea. And is not OP, but very useful.
>
> I be happy with this.
>
> What could “UP” be?
>
> With no re-roll perk, UP is an available option.

Could be to toggle the Ordnance Meter on or off. That way, after earning Personal Ordnance, you wouldn’t have to use it right away or just let it take up space on your HUD.

> > > Also, I think I can solve Ordinance Drops without getting rid of them completely, just make them directly tied to your Loadout. < is your selected Primary, > is your selected Secondary, V is 2x your selected grenade. This would give you an ammo resupply when/if you really need it. Say, for instance, when your Power Weapon is out of ammo you can get your AR back. And if you don’t need an ammo resupply? 2x your chosen grenade gives you a little extra power.
> >
> > This is a great idea. And is not OP, but very useful.
> >
> > I be happy with this.
> >
> > What could “UP” be?
> >
> > With no re-roll perk, UP is an available option.
>
> Could be to toggle the Ordnance Meter on or off. That way, after earning Personal Ordnance, you wouldn’t have to use it right away or just let it take up space on your HUD.

By using the UP on the D-Pad, you only have 3 options. What if the Back/Start button could toggle this. Or holding down X or something.

I also never realized that when you had your POD choice, you coudn’t change grenades. Thanks for pointing that out, that would have to be addressed in Halo 5.

> I agree with this to some extents.
>
> <mark>I actually feel the choice of BR, DMR, CC,and LR is appropriate. I find it’s the Automatics that are out of place as primary weapons. Rather the Magnum should get a little but of a buff, preferably in clip size (Say, a 10 or 12 shot clip?), and then the Secondary choices should be Magnum, AR, Storm Rifle, Suppressor.</mark>

Can you please elaborate on why you feel Automatic Rifles should serve as a secondary role? I see these weapons used to great effect (I’ve recently discovered an acquired taste for the Storm Rifle), and don’t quite see why these rifles should play “second banana” to the precision weapons.

I also must disagree on the inclusion of long-ranged primaries at spawn, as they do discourage map movement and make the options of melee and grenades nearly pointless at their intended range. I don’t have a problem with these weapons in general (I’d also love to see a return of the DMR’s Covie counterpart, the Needle Rifle), but feel that they would be more effective/appreciated when placed on-map, as opposed to given at spawn. Their inclusion makes many players prone to more stationary action (shooting down enemies from a safe distance outside of their effective range), something that is fine when you’re equipped with a Sniper Rifle, but not something that should be your primary tactic throughout a match IMO.

To balance the issue of PGs, PPs and BSs, why not limit the choices to UNSC weaponry? Everything else can be on map.
So basically:
Primary Weapons:
-AR
-BR
-DMR

Secondary Weapons:
-Magnum
-AutoMag
-SMG
-Suppressed SMG

Carbines (can replace Primary weapons, can carry more ammo for Carbine and Secondary):
-Assault Carbine
-Magnum Carbine

Grenades:
-Frags
-Incindiary (Area denial, around same damage as Pulse Grenades, Pulse Grenades get a buff as a result)

Armour Abilities:
-Thruster Pack
-Jet Pack (less fuel, long charge time, possibly drains energy from shields while in use?)
-Hologram

Equipment (certain ones that can be spawned with):
-Deployable sensor
-i cant really think of any more…

Also, no armour mods…well, maybe for certain gametypes…
And all weapons as projectile, but with realistic velocities

> > I don’t think it is necessary to weaken the Plasma Grenade. I think the grenade count should be reduced to 1, for the Sticky as well as for the Frag, to prevent <mark>grenade spam on infantry as well as on vehicles.</mark>
>
> I don’t think there is any need to reduce the grenade count to 1. Plasmas are powerful, and it’s caused problems to be able to spawn with them. Reducing it to 1 grenade would not change that.
>
> As for what I’ve highlighted, I don’t think “grenade spam” is actually anything near a problem. I think that is just a term made up by campers. They were unhappy when they got 'naded out of their corner and couldn’t kill anyone with their shotgun. It’s not difficult to avoid 2 grenades - as long as you move. 2 well placed grenades is not “spam”. Dropping 2 grenades to stop a guy from chasing you is not “spam”. Maybe if one guy threw 5 grenades at you in a row, yeah, that might be spam. But it’s extremely rare for someone to be carrying more than 2 grenades.

In my opinion a reduction of the grenade count to 1 is a significant change because people think twice before they throw their grenade because in case you miss you would not get a second chance, unless you would already have collected another one on the battlefield.

With grenade spam I was not really addressing 1v1 situations, I was addressing situations when several people fight each other.
I think fighting over the hill on Ravine is a good example for grenade spam. People are throwing blindly and constantly all their grenades up and down that hill.
Especially game types like Big Team Slayer, KotH and FFA have been suffering under grenade spam in my opinion.

Though that is subjective and a personal example but I have always reduced the grenade count to 1 when I played local custom games with friends and it has always played better in my opinion.

I think Halo Ce Plasma Pistol should make a return and the mauler to replace the Promie Pistol for more Toys to choose before getting into action again.