It’s no question that the flinch mechanic in Halo 4 is one of the main reasons why the game failed. Game-breaking as it is right now, I feel that the mechanic can work in the franchise with some tweaks. Just hear me out.
Although flinch is generally despised by the community, one has to admit that it is a “less annoying” mechanic than descope, and it works just fine in Campaign and Firefight/SpOps. Some may simply suggest that the mechanic only be available in those game modes, but I don’t think it’s smart to divide up gameplay mechanics across the different modes like that (but that’s a debate for another thread).
Here’s my idea on how to smartly integrate the flinch mechanic:
First off, descope should always be the primary mechanic. You press the zoom button, you zoom in, you get shot at, you zoom out. That won’t change. But let’s say you HOLD the zoom button. This will enter you into flinch mode. While in flinch mode, you will not automatically descope after being shot (your reticle will simply “jerk up”). However, your movement speed is greatly slowed; you won’t be able to strafe as quickly, turn your weapon fast, or jump. This makes it so that if you are not careful, flinch mode will actually be a disadvantage, and everyone won’t be using it at a given time.
We cannot waste time trying to make things work, we know what works and we should stick with it. We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.
> We cannot waste time trying to make things work, we know what works and we should stick with it. We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.
You say that, but you didn’t identify anything wrong with my proposed system.
> This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
>
> And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
>
> As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
> > This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
> >
> > And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
> >
> > As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
>
> I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
Why would you want to have flinch in the game and then give it such extreme disadvatages nobody would use it anyway?
This: “We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.”
I admire your thinking OP but I dont think it would work.
Descope could be re-implemented since it works brilliantly and prevents camping to an extent. However if you shields break you could flinch due to your player actually taking more of the kinetic impact of the shot. This may not work either since it may have an effect on headshot weapon encounters
> > > This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
> > >
> > > And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
> > >
> > > As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
> >
> > I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
>
> Why would you want to have flinch in the game and then give it such extreme disadvatages nobody would use it anyway?
>
> This: “We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.”
Extreme disadvantages countered by the extreme advantage that flinch offers. Would you rather there NOT be any disadvantages? If you can’t find anything wrong, what’s the problem?
> > > > This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
> > > >
> > > > And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
> > > >
> > > > As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
> > >
> > > I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
> >
> > Why would you want to have flinch in the game and then give it such extreme disadvatages nobody would use it anyway?
> >
> > This: “We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.”
>
> Extreme disadvantages countered by the extreme advantage that flinch offers. Would you rather there NOT be any disadvantages? If you can’t find anything wrong, what’s the problem?
Why would any one risk going into ‘flinch mode’ if they dont need to since it offeres such a minor bonus that its near pointless, not to mention all the complaints about holding it down too long.
> > > > This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
> > > >
> > > > And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
> > > >
> > > > As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
> > >
> > > I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
> >
> > Why would you want to have flinch in the game and then give it such extreme disadvatages nobody would use it anyway?
> >
> > This: “We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.”
>
> Extreme disadvantages countered by the extreme advantage that flinch offers. Would you rather there NOT be any disadvantages? If you can’t find anything wrong, what’s the problem?
The advantage is rather minor (except when it comes to making sniping easier). The little advantage it gives is still easily countered by the other players because of the marksmans reduced speed, a necessity for snipers (and other players as well).
> > > > > This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
> > > > >
> > > > > As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
> > > >
> > > > I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
> > >
> > > Why would you want to have flinch in the game and then give it such extreme disadvatages nobody would use it anyway?
> > >
> > > This: “We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.”
> >
> > Extreme disadvantages countered by the extreme advantage that flinch offers. Would you rather there NOT be any disadvantages? If you can’t find anything wrong, what’s the problem?
>
> Why would any one risk going into ‘flinch mode’ if they dont need to since it offeres such a minor bonus that its near pointless, not to mention all the complaints about holding it down too long.
I’m trying to find a way that flinch can be implemented in both multiplayer and the other modes, without simply having the mechanic in some and not others, which I believe is the wrong way to approach it.
I don’t mean a large decrease in movement speed, just a considerable one. Flinch is a major advantage for longer-ranged encounters, but the fact that everyone won’t be using it at a given time gets rid of the issue it had in Halo 4.
> > > > > > This would give a huge advantage to Fishtick control scheme users… Considering it’s the only control scheme where zoom isn’t on the right stick.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I’m not suggesting they make LT zoom standard for a second. RS zoom is ingrained in every CE vet’s bones.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As well, strafing while zoomed is EXTREMELY important, so taking that away to balance a far-too-overcomplicated mechanic is a no-no.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you’re missing the point. I WANT flinch to have disadvantages. Fishstick users (like myself), won’t be at an advantage by constantly being in flinch mode. If you want to strafe and jump, then stay out of flinch mode.
> > > >
> > > > Why would you want to have flinch in the game and then give it such extreme disadvatages nobody would use it anyway?
> > > >
> > > > This: “We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.”
> > >
> > > Extreme disadvantages countered by the extreme advantage that flinch offers. Would you rather there NOT be any disadvantages? If you can’t find anything wrong, what’s the problem?
> >
> > Why would any one risk going into ‘flinch mode’ if they dont need to since it offeres such a minor bonus that its near pointless, not to mention all the complaints about holding it down too long.
>
> I’m trying to find a way that flinch can be implemented in both multiplayer and the other modes, without simply having the mechanic in some and not others, which I believe is the wrong way to approach it.
>
> I don’t mean a large decrease in movement speed, just a considerable one. Flinch is a major advantage for longer-ranged encounters, but the fact that everyone won’t be using it at a given time gets rid of the issue it had in Halo 4.
Yes but your missing the point. Why would I want to use it? And people would get annoyed with losing simple battles because of your feature.
The consequences of this suggestion don’t comply with the kind of skilful gameplay we would want. In long range encounters, despite flinch, the fact that you stay scoped offers a fundamental advantage over descope. In other words, for anyone at sufficiently long ranges (and especially for Fishstick users) this “flinch mode” would be the obvious option.
However, as it would slow the player down, it would discourage strafing in longer ranged encounters. Halo is a game of movement, mechanics should seek to encourage strafing, not discourage it, because strafing adds a layer of depth, a layer of skill, to combat.
Additionally, this whole suggestion dodges the fact that flinch is fundamentally a bad mechanic because in combat it imposes an artificial limit on the player’s ability to aim. It adds randomness, no matter how little, without offering any benefit to gameplay.
I very much disagree that flinch is less annoying that descope. Descope does have some frustrating properties to it, namely when you trying to zoom in or out coincides with getting hit and it throws you off. If there was a better mechanic, I would gladly take it, but the reality of it is that the frustrating property is a consequence of what makes it such a skilful mechanic.
Honestly, while I like that you’re trying to take flinch and make it work, I think your idea is overly complicated for what it is. Sometimes, you need to pick one idea or the other, rather than trying to please everybody. It’s been clear that the vast majority of players prefer descope to flinching, so the smart thing to do would just be the reimplement it in future Halo games.
Your idea still doesn’t fix the problem with flinch either. It’s very frustrating to try to take out a sniper with my Carbine at medium range, only to have him two-shot me due to not being knocked out of his scope. That will still happen, even if a player is slowed down while getting shot. And if the player gets slowed down to the point where he wouldn’t be able to recuperate, then why implement this flinching in the first place?
No, descoping is by far the superior mechanic. I found it to be much less annoying/frustrating than flinching, and required smart play from both players, which is what Halo is all about.
"there is a skill to managing your scope, one that differs from aiming. Having to account for flinch in your aiming does not replace the skill involved in descope. Flinch has increased the issue of Sniping being far too easy. Being sniped across map is an issue everybody has; it doesn’t really make sense falling dead with no one in sight, it doesn’t feel fair and can be highly frustrating. Even when a player is shooting directly at a sniper, they still have a very high chance of killing you due to staying in scope. Flinch does not compare to Descope in the slightest in terms of appropriate difficulty and sandbox function. All it does is make weapons overpowered at range which calls for more Bloom, Spread or less base damage in order to compensate, all of which are negative aspects for the game" - Community Halo Document
Why waste time fixing flinch, we can just have descope, it has worked in the past and was never a problem in the past.
> Some may simply suggest that the mechanic only be available in those game modes, but I don’t think it’s smart to divide up gameplay mechanics across the different modes like that (but that’s a debate for another thread).
Where is this particular thread?
I think Multiplayer and Campaign should be distinct as much as possible. It’s very unlikely a Campaign player will easily be able to adapt into Multiplayer and vice versa. The game shouldn’t accommodate a player’s inability to adapt (like Halo 4 tried to do).
> But let’s say you HOLD the zoom button. This will enter you into flinch mode. While in flinch mode, you will not automatically descope after being shot (your reticle will simply “jerk up”). However, your movement speed is greatly slowed; you won’t be able to strafe as quickly, turn your weapon fast, or jump. This makes it so that if you are not careful, flinch mode will actually be a disadvantage, and everyone won’t be using it at a given time.
Are those limitations really necessary? If you’re holding down the right stick, it’ll be harder to perform actions (particularly jump).
> We cannot waste time trying to make things work, we know what works and we should stick with it. We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.
Am i the only one who thinks this statement sounds really -Yoinked!- up. Trail and error is what built many things. Sometimes you can’t hit the nail on the head the first try. That doesn’t mean you destroy the hammer and rip out the nail with you bare hands destroying the wood.
The kind of thinking you are going on is what has gotten millions killed in the past.
> "there is a skill to managing your scope, one that differs from aiming. Having to account for flinch in your aiming does not replace the skill involved in descope. Flinch has increased the issue of Sniping being far too easy. Being sniped across map is an issue everybody has; it doesn’t really make sense falling dead with no one in sight, it doesn’t feel fair and can be highly frustrating. Even when a player is shooting directly at a sniper, they still have a very high chance of killing you due to staying in scope.
> Flinch does not compare to Descope in the slightest in terms of appropriate difficulty and sandbox function. All it does is make weapons overpowered at range which calls for more Bloom, Spread or less base damage in order to compensate, all of which are negative aspects for the game" - Community Halo Document
>
> Why waste time fixing flinch, we can just have descope, it has worked in the past and was never a problem in the past.
Flinch as a PRIMARY MECHANIC is game breaking in Halo. But my proposed system eliminates the problems it had in Halo 4.
> > "there is a skill to managing your scope, one that differs from aiming. Having to account for flinch in your aiming does not replace the skill involved in descope. Flinch has increased the issue of Sniping being far too easy. Being sniped across map is an issue everybody has; it doesn’t really make sense falling dead with no one in sight, it doesn’t feel fair and can be highly frustrating. Even when a player is shooting directly at a sniper, they still have a very high chance of killing you due to staying in scope.
> > Flinch does not compare to Descope in the slightest in terms of appropriate difficulty and sandbox function. All it does is make weapons overpowered at range which calls for more Bloom, Spread or less base damage in order to compensate, all of which are negative aspects for the game" - Community Halo Document
> >
> > Why waste time fixing flinch, we can just have descope, it has worked in the past and was never a problem in the past.
>
> Flinch as a PRIMARY MECHANIC is game breaking in Halo. But my proposed system eliminates the problems it had in Halo 4.
You still havnt answered why anyone would use ‘flinch mode’ and have not addressed that people on BR duals could die because of them accidentally holding it down for too long.
> > We cannot waste time trying to make things work, we know what works and we should stick with it. We dont have to FORCE anything onto halo with the excuses that it can be tweaked.
>
> Am i the only one who thinks this statement sounds really -Yoinked!- up. Trail and error is what built many things. Sometimes you can’t hit the nail on the head the first try. That doesn’t mean you destroy the hammer and rip out the nail with you bare hands destroying the wood.
>
> The kind of thinking you are going on is what has gotten millions killed in the past.
>
> “Don’t try to figure it out just get rid of it.”
Descope was never a problem in the past.It Worked. Trying to force some into halo that currently does not work is what is actually killing millions. Change for the sake of change. Why are we giving ourselves extra problems and fixes to do when we KNOW of something that works? I SERIOUSLY JUST DON’T GET IT!
Halo 1,2 and 3 and very different games yet they were amazing because they kept adding to the formula, not removing things that worked.