People, please, cut down on the illogicality

Games Other Halo
1

I understand that in the Halo community, as in any community, it’s cool to hate on the newest addition. I understand that as with any game, there are flaws, and these range from the minor to the needs-a-bit-of-tweaking to the this-is-kinda-annoying-now to the Armour Lock. I realise that a lot of nostalgia is attached to games you played and enjoyed when you were younger, and that there are some things those games got right which should be taken into account. But for crying out loud, this is getting ridiculous.

Loadouts. Armour Abilities. Bloom. These are things which, in themselves, can be great, atrocious or meh. Reach had some flaws, but it get some things right. With Halo 4, 343 have the potential to correct those faults and actually make an innovative game. Please stop irrationally jumping on the hate wagon every time they are mentioned and actually hear people out. Remember that if people had had your ultra-conservative viewpoints ten years ago, Combat Evolved would never have been made.

Basically, this thread is about defending the changes made to Halo, as it’s a subject many people clearly haven’t heard both sides of and it’s an issue that has the potential to sink Halo 4. I’ll be updating the OP to explain why your complaints are ill-grounded in logic as you present them.

Loadouts mean people aren’t equal

No, they don’t, because everybody gets to pick from the same Loadouts. You all do start equal, at the spawn screen, what you choose to do from there does not make thinks unequal any more than you being killed by a more skilled opponent makes the game unequal.

Obviously, there is a problem if one weapon/AA is overpowered compared to the other options. This is where balancing and playtesting comes in, hopefully with a beta where 343i listens to our comments and nerfs/buffs as appropriate. But hypothetically, if this balancing is achieved, then Loadouts are fine.

To put this in perspective, think of the Needlers on The Pit at the start of a game of Slayer in Halo 3. These are just as ‘free’ as the Loadout options. Either you complain about these - and all other non-central weapons - along with Loadouts, or you accept both. To distinguish between the two is to be two-faced, hypocritical and is ultimately a fallacy.

Bloom is random

Bloom is random in certain situations and depending on the mechanics. There are all sorts of factors which affect this, primarily how far the reticle expands and what range the weapon is being used at. Reach didn’t understand this and we had a weapon with relatively little expansion being used for mid-range battles. However, had the DMR had larger bloom (with faster reset to speed gameplay up), and most crucially, had the sandbox included a bloomless weapon which bested the DMR at mid-range and so made it obsolete outside of long range, it would have worked. Alas, this was not the case. One failure, however, does not mean the entire idea can never work. That’s like discovering fire and snuffing it out because you singed your finger.

But I don’t like Armour Abilities!

That’s okay. I’d imagine there will be classic as well as AA playlists. To use an analogy, think about MLG. There are lots of people who don’t like it and come up with all sorts of witty ways of suggesting MLG should be removed from the game. Now, think about the reasons why you think MLG should remain. Congratulations, you understand the base idea I’m putting across in this paragraph as to why AAs should remain.

My proposed system

For those who understand this thread, this is utterly pointless, but some don’t, so just bear with me.

- Sprint and Evade are given off-spawn, you switch between the two with the up and down buttons. This is the base setting, but you can set between 0 and 4 default AAs using custom game options.
- All the other, more powerful AAs are available on-map only.
- There is a Custom Game option whereby your Sprint/Evade AA meter is drained if you’re shot, which could be used in Ranked playlists if people running away is a problem.
- The DMR has larger bloom expansion; if an opponent occupies < X% of the reticle the shot automatically misses.
- Halo 4’s BR has a fixed spread, one central bullet and two at opposing horizontal edges of the reticle.
- One utility weapon combines the BR and DMR, so that at closer range, the DMR will never be used.

The overall point of this thread is to explain that new ideas being imperfectly implemented in Reach does not mean no version of aforementioned new ideas can work whatsoever. Please stop complaining about Reach’s flaws, because you’re doing nothing but (in general) agreeing with me and, more to the point, you’re completely failing to grasp the idea being presented in this thread.**
.

2

I disagree about the Loadouts. They definitely unbalance the game as each person will follow his/her play style and his/her strengths. A big part of Halo was always spawning equally and racing for the power weapon. It was never about choosing the correct utilities and flinging it.

I do agree that Bloom should come back in a small unnoticeable manner (like the title update changes, maybe less). Armor Abilities are okay but they completely ruin map maneuverability and make maps which could have been highly appreciated hated. I don’t mind if AAs return, as long as they don’t ruin multiplayer maps (which would probably mean the removal of sprint and jetpack- even though those are the only two armor abilities I ever used- almost).

I welcome change, especially for Halo 4- which is going in the direction of completely rebooting the series- BUT not in that direction. As someone else from the forums said, Halo Reach didn’t step forward and progress Halo gameplay, it sidestepped. I beleieve some of the changes (specifically Loadouts) should be erased from Halo, or maybe they should just be left for custom games.

3

It’s all a matter of opinion. You think Loadouts work, many others don’t. Personally i think the only place they work is in Firefight and even then it should be a separate gametype. It’s all opinion, none of us can actually, definitively state any of this as a fact.

4

I agree with the OP. Don’t scrap all te things Reach added just because they weren’t perfect. Stick with it 343.

"I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have
succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have
eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will
work."

  • Thomas Edison.
5

> I agree with the OP. Don’t scrap all te things Reach added just because they weren’t perfect. Stick with it 343.
>
> "I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have
> succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have
> eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will
> work."
>
> - Thomas Edison.

QFT.

6

> I disagree about the Loadouts. They definitely unbalance the game as each person will follow his/her play style and his/her strengths. A big part of Halo was always spawning equally and racing for the power weapon. It was never about choosing the correct utilities and flinging it.

So, I take it you are also opposed to all on-map weapons and power-ups that don’t spawn in the exact middle of the map? Because logic, I’m afraid, is not down to opinion. Either you dislike both or you accept both, the only other ‘options’ are fallacies.

7

> It’s all a matter of opinion. You think Loadouts work, many others don’t. Personally i think the only place they work is in Firefight and even then it should be a separate gametype. It’s all opinion, none of us can actually, definitively state any of this as a fact.

Of course, we’re all allowed an opinion. But all opinions are not equal. You are perfectly allowed to hold an irrational and unsupported opinion in the face of well-structured logical explanations as to why your viewpoint does not lead to balanced gameplay. However, don’t expect anybody with a brain to listen to what you have to say. Remember, everything is not purely opinion. Balance and skill are two things which can be at least in part objectively measured, and they are traits I believe everybody here wants Halo 4 to contain. If you’d be so kind as to explain why you hold your curious viewpoint, I’ll be happy to explain why you’re wrong and Loadouts can, in fact, lead to balanced and skilled gameplay.

8

Someone get an extinguisher; here come the flames.

9

annoying… i agree with you… however it urks me when all my teammates use the jetpack to rush for the sniper rifle, getting shot and killed, losing points for my team. Then the guy who grabs the sniper is either some little 10 year old on my team or a guy on the enemy team.

This post has been edited by a Moderator: Please do not intentionally bypass the profanity filter.

10

> > It’s all a matter of opinion. You think Loadouts work, many others don’t. Personally i think the only place they work is in Firefight and even then it should be a separate gametype. It’s all opinion, none of us can actually, definitively state any of this as a fact.
>
> Of course, we’re all allowed an opinion. But all opinions are not equal. You are perfectly allowed to hold an irrational and unsupported opinion in the face of well-structured logical explanations as to why your viewpoint does not lead to balanced gameplay. However, don’t expect anybody with a brain to listen to what you have to say. Remember, everything is not purely opinion. Balance and skill are two things which can be at least in part objectively measured, and they are traits I believe everybody here wants Halo 4 to contain. If you’d be so kind as to explain why you hold your curious viewpoint, I’ll be happy to explain why you’re wrong and Loadouts can, in fact, lead to balanced and skilled gameplay.

While I’m agreeing with you that loadouts work fine, AA work fine and so on, you’re giving the wrong impression by suggesting that you’re logic is undeniable. For that to be true, you’ll have to have access to the record of every game played, watched the videos of a sizable percentage of them, know intuitively how players respond to scenarios–and therefore know the strategies of the individual–and generally have all of the knowledge that only one party has, which is 343i. You have experience personally with a very minute fraction of Reach’s population: you’re friends and yourself, which is not a large enough sample to make anymore then best guesses when you’re discussing a topic that with each day holds hundreds of thousands of unique players.

To be completely honest, saying that you’re opinion is perfect to where his isn’t makes you come off as extremely narcissistic. You’re opinion, or what you call “logic” works fine for you because you play in such a manner that loadouts, AAs and bloom is acceptable. Others have playstyles that are foreign to yours and so are less inclined to accept Reach’s changes. There is no way you can say you’re opinion is more right then anyone else’s in a sampling as large as this. Nobody is right or wrong. It is the developer’s job to try and cater to the largest audience possible, which is why Halo 3 was probably so appealing to the masses. It had the simple run and gun action, but could also allow for any number of gamestyles and playstyeles suited to the individual. With the unchangable advent of bloom, as well as slowing the gameplay down, Bungie alienated some of that group.

TL;DR Nobody’s right, nobody’s wrong. We just have to find a way to make as many people happy as possible.

11

> > > It’s all a matter of opinion. You think Loadouts work, many others don’t. Personally i think the only place they work is in Firefight and even then it should be a separate gametype. It’s all opinion, none of us can actually, definitively state any of this as a fact.
> >
> > Of course, we’re all allowed an opinion. But all opinions are not equal. You are perfectly allowed to hold an irrational and unsupported opinion in the face of well-structured logical explanations as to why your viewpoint does not lead to balanced gameplay. However, don’t expect anybody with a brain to listen to what you have to say. Remember, everything is not purely opinion. Balance and skill are two things which can be at least in part objectively measured, and they are traits I believe everybody here wants Halo 4 to contain. If you’d be so kind as to explain why you hold your curious viewpoint, I’ll be happy to explain why you’re wrong and Loadouts can, in fact, lead to balanced and skilled gameplay.
>
> While I’m agreeing with you that loadouts work fine, AA work fine and so on, you’re giving the wrong impression by suggesting that you’re logic is undeniable. For that to be true, you’ll have to have access to the record of every game played, watched the videos of a sizable percentage of them, know intuitively how players respond to scenarios–and therefore know the strategies of the individual–and generally have all of the knowledge that only one party has, which is 343i. You have experience personally with a very minute fraction of Reach’s population: you’re friends and yourself, which is not a large enough sample to make anymore then best guesses when you’re discussing a topic that with each day holds hundreds of thousands of unique players.
>
> To be completely honest, saying that you’re opinion is perfect to where his isn’t makes you come off as extremely narcissistic. You’re opinion, or what you call “logic” works fine for you because you play in such a manner that loadouts, AAs and bloom is acceptable. Others have playstyles that are foreign to yours and so are less inclined to accept Reach’s changes. There is no way you can say you’re opinion is more right then anyone else’s in a sampling as large as this. Nobody is right or wrong. It is the developer’s job to try and cater to the largest audience possible, which is why Halo 3 was probably so appealing to the masses. It had the simple run and gun action, but could also allow for any number of gamestyles and playstyeles suited to the individual. With the unchangable advent of bloom, as well as slowing the gameplay down, Bungie alienated some of that group.
>
> TL;DR Nobody’s right, nobody’s wrong. We just have to find a way to make as many people happy as possible.

For a start, I’m not basing this purely off my own experience - obviously, how could I have experience of Loadouts in Halo games other than Reach? I’m basing this on logical thinking. If you have a particular issue with something specific I say, then point it out, that’s the point of a forum. But general statements like that are useless. It appears you’ve completely missed what I’m talking about. I’m not suggesting any specific mechanics to make the game more balanced/skilled, which is what your post would counter-argue beautifully. I’m suggesting we don’t throw out potential ideas such as Loadouts and Armour Abilities, but keep in mind that they could work well and test, experiment and balance to see if something can be worked out.

12

> > I agree with the OP. Don’t scrap all te things Reach added just because they weren’t perfect. Stick with it 343.
> >
> > "I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have
> > succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have
> > eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will
> > work."
> >
> > - Thomas Edison.
>
> QFT.

Reach Multiplayer, which I like by the way (Loadouts work well in big team) Has, if nothing else been an awesome theoretical beta for Halo 4

13

Even though I prefer the classic style of Halo (everone starts with same weapons, grendes etc.), I really do hope they bring back loadouts as they were great for Custom Games and Invasion. I think they fit really well into Invasion as there were no weapons on the map and it felt a bit more like a class-based game (like Battlefield) where each class had a different purpose. I hope they can expand on this somehow in Halo 4 (For example they could give one class slower movement but more shield strength).

I didn’t really like Loadouts and Armour Abilities in normal Reach matchmaking because everyone had them (compared to Halo 3’s equipment in which there were only 2-3 pieces of equipment on the map). IMO it added an un-needed gameplay element. Plus you couldn’t tell which one people had until they used it. If they’d made it so that everyone started with sprint and then could swap it for Armour Abilities that were around the map it would have been better.

14

> Even though I prefer the classic style of Halo (everone starts with same weapons, grendes etc.), I really do hope they bring back loadouts as they were great for Custom Games and Invasion. I think they fit really well into Invasion as there were no weapons on the map and it felt a bit more like a class-based game (like Battlefield) where each class had a different purpose. I hope they can expand on this somehow in Halo 4 (For example they could give one class slower movement but more shield strength).
>
> I didn’t really like Loadouts and Armour Abilities in normal Reach matchmaking because everyone had them (compared to Halo 3’s equipment in which there were only 2-3 pieces of equipment on the map). IMO it added an un-needed gameplay element. Plus you couldn’t tell which one people had until they used it. If they’d made it so that everyone started with sprint and then could swap it for Armour Abilities that were around the map it would have been better.

My ideal system would be have Sprint and Evade available off-spawn and other AAs available as on-map pick-ups. Plus, you’d be able to tell what AA somebody had by looking at them, the symbol would pop up on the waypoint over their head. Also, there could be lights on their armour (not just on the back a la Reach) that changed colour to symbolise which AA they were carrying. Not sure if that would be possible without looking tacky, but if it could be done, it would be great. One of the main problems which Halo 4 needs to fix from Reach is the randomness, you shouldn’t have to guess what AA your opponent has.

15

Loadouts should definately not be removed as an option in Halo 4 for 3 reasons.
1.) Really opens up custom games.
2.) Invasion
3.) Adding variety to certain gametypes.

The first two are self explanitory, but the last one is a little bit more complicatedIn general I believe that in ‘standard’ gametypes(Not things like SWAT or Invasion) players should start off fairly equally.But in others such as Team Rifles/BRs/Pro/Snipers It can get kind of stale using the BR and sniper over and over again.

So I don’t think its unreasonable to want to be able to choose something different but functionally similar from time to time. It would be nice to be able to choose from a BR or Carbine or a Sniper and Beam rife in social playlists.

16

Saying you start equally “at the spawn screen” sounds like nothing more than a game of semantics to me. There is nothing inherently wrong with loadouts themselves, but AA do not work well in Halo IMO. Sprint slows the gameplay down and does not punish people for making mistakes (not to mention it ruins map flow), Evade is along the same lines, Hologram is okay, Camo should have remained a powerup, Jetpack ruins map flow and rewards people in situations where they do not deserve it, etc. If not for the different AAs, why even have loadouts? The only situation I see loadouts as being acceptable is if you wanted to have an option between different starting weapons, a la DMR start vs Needle Rifle start. This would really only have a place in certain gametypes as well, because as you said it would probably start to introduce balancing issues. Halo usually has a utility weapon… think CE pistol, BR, DMR. CE pistol had no equivalents really, BR had the carbine but ask yourself… how many people ACTUALLY used it on a regular basis other than a backup in case they became low on ammo? The DMR had the NR, but again, it was unused for the most part except when a DMR was unavailable.

Also, I know I’m new and all but do you really have to be a condescending jerk? This whole “I’m right, you’re wrong” attitude is actually quite annoying. You could at least entertain the idea of someone else’s opinion, you know?

edit:

Your example on The Pit is not really applicable here. The sniper on The Pit needed to constantly be maintained and controlled, along with rockets and camo/os on non-MLG + os on MLG. In order to have good map control, you needed power weapon control. This was a skill. Choosing which AA you want to abuse off of the start of your spawn is not a skill. Throwing down AL does not require an extraordinary amount of skill and there is pretty much zero learning curve. You can argue that at the start of the game, the Snipers are just as free game as picking a specific loadout, but is it? Think about it. If you ran around with it, odds are you would probably die and it would be taken. You can’t just pick it again at the respawn screen. This system punishes you for making mistakes. Halo Reach’s system rewarded you for dying. How is that logical? since you seem to be so keen on the logistics of everything

17

I’m fine with 343i including loadouts, as that means I save the $150 I would be spending on the legendary edition.

I sure hope Black Ops 2 is fun.

18

> Loadouts. Armour Abilities. Bloom. These are things which, in themselves, can be great, atrocious or meh. Reach had some flaws, but it get some things right. With Halo 4, 343 have the potential to correct those faults and actually make an innovative game. Please stop irrationally jumping on the hate wagon every time they are mentioned and actually hear people out.
[/quote]
Firstly welcome to the internet. People will always complain.
> Also if it wasn’t for the complainers then the flaws would continue to spread into the later halo games.
> Firstly loadouts are pointless since it just involves people spamming abilities or getting weapons that they haven’t earnt. Also Reach has tons of flaws which is why its hated by a lot. Also if people don’t nip pick at all the flaws of Reach then how is 343i know which things to fix? It’s called critism, its widely accepted in the gaming industry, I should know because I have spoken to people personaly within the game industry itself.
> And if I’m throwing money at a game, possible game down the line then I, many others have a right to complain if we don’t like what we see.

19

> > Loadouts. Armour Abilities. Bloom. These are things which, in themselves, can be great, atrocious or meh. Reach had some flaws, but it get some things right. With Halo 4, 343 have the potential to correct those faults and actually make an innovative game. Please stop irrationally jumping on the hate wagon every time they are mentioned and actually hear people out.
[/quote]
Firstly welcome to the internet. People will always complain.
> > Also if it wasn’t for the complainers then the flaws would continue to spread into the later halo games.
> > Firstly loadouts are pointless since it just involves people spamming abilities or getting weapons that they haven’t earnt. Also Reach has tons of flaws which is why its hated by a lot. Also if people don’t nip pick at all the flaws of Reach then how is 343i know which things to fix? It’s called critism, its widely accepted in the gaming industry, I should know because I have spoken to people personaly within the game industry itself.
> > And if I’m throwing money at a game, possible game down the line then I, many others have a right to complain if we don’t like what we see.
[/quote]
You don’t seem to understand. What I’m asking for is that people complain. They point out flaws, they say what they like and dislike, they suggest improvements, what need to be tweaked and what needs to go. My problem is that there’s a lot of people who see a buzzword - Loadout, Bloom, or Armour Ability - and simply blanket hate on the post in question.
> > You’re a prime example of the sort of mentality I’m talking about - a lot of your post is actually agreeing with what I said in the OP, but you didn’t take the time to read through and understand my OP. If you had, you’d know I’d asked for constructive criticism, for a start. People need to stop posting generic answers - “herp derp bloom is random” being the obvious example here - and consider people’s opinions.

20

> > > Loadouts. Armour Abilities. Bloom. These are things which, in themselves, can be great, atrocious or meh. Reach had some flaws, but it get some things right. With Halo 4, 343 have the potential to correct those faults and actually make an innovative game. Please stop irrationally jumping on the hate wagon every time they are mentioned and actually hear people out.
[/quote]
Firstly welcome to the internet. People will always complain.
> > > Also if it wasn’t for the complainers then the flaws would continue to spread into the later halo games.
> > > Firstly loadouts are pointless since it just involves people spamming abilities or getting weapons that they haven’t earnt. Also Reach has tons of flaws which is why its hated by a lot. Also if people don’t nip pick at all the flaws of Reach then how is 343i know which things to fix? It’s called critism, its widely accepted in the gaming industry, I should know because I have spoken to people personaly within the game industry itself.
> > > And if I’m throwing money at a game, possible game down the line then I, many others have a right to complain if we don’t like what we see.
[/quote]
You don’t seem to understand. What I’m asking for is that people complain. They point out flaws, they say what they like and dislike, they suggest improvements, what need to be tweaked and what needs to go. My problem is that there’s a lot of people who see a buzzword - Loadout, Bloom, or Armour Ability - and simply blanket hate on the post in question.
> > > You’re a prime example of the sort of mentality I’m talking about - a lot of your post is actually agreeing with what I said in the OP, but you didn’t take the time to read through and understand my OP. If you had, you’d know I’d asked for constructive criticism, for a start. People need to stop posting generic answers - “herp derp bloom is random” being the obvious example here - and consider people’s opinions.
[/quote]
From all the posts on here, isn’t it you who needs to consider peoples opinions? You seem to shun away anyone who doesn’t agree with you, and you think your opinion is more right, How can an opinion be more right than someone else’s? An opinion can’t be right or wrong.