Ordnance and "solutions"

Games Other Halo
1

I’m going to be honest, I like personal and map ordnance, and I think they are great ideas. However their implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

The problem: As both are handled right now there’s a problem with how the teams are treated. In an equal environment the luckier team will win. If you play against yourself, the version of you who gets the better drops will come out on top, not the one who played to his outmost peak performance.

Another thing with it is that it’s unpredictable. You can’t adapt to something you don’t know about, until you’ve seen the sniper either waste a bullet, gain a point by killing you or an ally, or in worst case scenario a multikill with one bullet. Either way, the damage is done before you could do something about it.

Power weapons in personal ordnance reduce the willingness to move around the map as you can call them down where you’re safe and let’s be honest, it’s not difficult to get them either.

So what can be done to preserve personal and map ordnance but make it better?

I have one idea for regular slayer and an extra idea for a more special game mode.

> First idea

Personal Ordnance: Replace power weapons with loadout weapons. The loadout weapons would function as ammo refills and/or weapon swaps. In turn it would also put more value on the power weapons that are dropped on the map so map movement becomes more relevant.

Map Ordnance:

Drop Recon

That is the engineer specialization demonstrated. This is how I imagined it would work before Halo 4 was released. It is also how I would like it to work.

The waypoint should be visible to everyone on the map, and it should also work like Drop Recon for everyone so that they know that a weapon is incoming rather than it has dropped. The timer for the waypoint should be shown earlier than the time it is for Drop Recon, I’d suggest 30 seconds or so would be a good time, but that’s up for discussion.

Players who use Drop Recon could sacrifice one mod for a timer that counts down for the drop, but more experienced players could time it like in previous titles without the mod.

The map drops could then be made so that there’s almost always a weapon dropping in so that there’s plenty of map movement in order to acquire the power weapons. Everyone knows what, where and when they spawn so there would be no problem in that part.

Drop locations would perhaps need some tweaking. Still, waypoints visible to everyone.

Result: As power weapons wouldn’t be available through Personal Drops, more emphasis would be placed on the map drops, and as they are visible to everyone, there would be no advantages given through randomness. It’s unpredictable what weapon will spawn, when and where, but as it’s announced before the drop happens and to everyone, it eliminates that “undeserved advantage”, yet the randomness remains.

Why keep the randomness then? Well it’d keep matches different, perhaps there would only spawn snipers in a match, it’d be different from a match with rockets and snipers, or all of a sudden only CQC power weapons spawn on a big open map. Matches would play differently, and teams would have to “adapt” in a true manner through something they can predict.

Mind you, I’m not against static spawns, but I would rather see some effort in fixing ordnance drops before going back to the old tried and true system.

> Second idea

Mix personal ordnance with the map ordnance.

This would work so that Power weapons would be available through personal ordnance only, however, the twist to it is that as you order a power weapon or power up, it drops at a Map Ordnance location.

Similairly to how the first idea works, as you order it, a waypoint spawns on the location it will drop at and 30 seconds later it’s dropped there. The waypoint is shown to everyone on the map as well.

What’s different here to the first one is that you order a power weapon, but it might not be you who get it, might not even be your team which get it. The only randomness here would be what kind of ordnance you can order.

No power weapons would drop on the map other than through players ordering in Personal Drops.

Some restrictions would perhaps be needed so that too many weapons can’t be ordered at the same time.

>

I know some people are against the waypoints, but please do consider these ideas regarding Ordnance. It can work, all that is needed is some effort.

2

World Ordinance:

The high tier weapons like Rockets, Lasers, Fuel Rods, the 3 snipers, Railgun, and maybe the Sticky Det. should be in set locations on set timers. I don’t mind mid and low tier weapons as semi-random ordinance, I think it adds a fun dynamic that players have to be aware of.

Personal Ordinance:

What ever the high tier weapons on the map are shouldn’t be able to come in your POD. Every thing else is game.

3

> …
> First idea
> Result: As power weapons wouldn’t be available through Personal Drops, more emphasis would be placed on the map drops, and as they are visible to everyone, there would be no advantages given through randomness. It’s unpredictable what weapon will spawn, when and where, but as it’s announced before the drop happens and to everyone, it eliminates that “undeserved advantage”, yet the randomness remains.

OD problems broken down into parts:

  1. POD spikes slayer ability - solved
  2. ROD eliminates strategic locations on the map for power weapons - not solved
  3. ROD waypoint indicates when a player has picked up the weapon - not certain

> Second idea
>
> Mix personal ordnance with the map ordnance.
>
> This would work so that Power weapons would be available through personal ordnance only, however, the twist to it is that as you order a power weapon or power up, it drops at a Map Ordnance location.

What if the enemy wanted to control those locations? How would you get to your POD without being shot at?

> Similairly to how the first idea works, as you order it, a waypoint spawns on the location it will drop at and 30 seconds later it’s dropped there.

I don’t see the purpose of a delay in drop… They just have to count to 30… you are not really solving any problem with this delay…

4

> 1. POD spikes slayer ability - solved
> 2. ROD eliminates strategic locations on the map for power weapons - not solved
> 3. ROD waypoint indicates when a player has picked up the weapon - not certain

#2 is only a problem by opinion, not fact.

5

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*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> > 1. POD spikes slayer ability - solved
> > 2. ROD eliminates strategic locations on the map for power weapons - not solved
> > 3. ROD waypoint indicates when a player has picked up the weapon - not certain
>
> #2 is only a problem by opinion, not fact.

Wha???

good luck trying to get anyone to agree with you…

6

I’m like you OP, I don’t mind ordnance in Halo. The big problem I have is with its implementation.

To me, Halo has always had 3 tiers of weapons:

  • Loadout weapons: Standard auto and precision weapons. (AR, BR, etc.)
  • Specialty weapons: Weapons that are powerful in specific situations. (Needlers, Plasma Pistols, SAWs, etc.)
  • Power weapons: Anything that can kill in 1 shot (Sniper, Rockets, etc.).

In my opinion, I’d only allow loadout weapons in loadouts, specialty weapons in PODs, and Power weapons as world ordnance. This way players can still be rewarded with stronger weapons through personal ordnance, but without becoming overpowered as the most powerful weapons will need to be earned by fighting over them on the map.

Also, random ordnance should just go away…like forever.

7

> > …
> >
> >
> > > First idea
> >
> > Result: As power weapons wouldn’t be available through Personal Drops, more emphasis would be placed on the map drops, and as they are visible to everyone, there would be no advantages given through randomness. It’s unpredictable what weapon will spawn, when and where, but as it’s announced before the drop happens and to everyone, it eliminates that “undeserved advantage”, yet the randomness remains.
> >
[/quote]
OD problems broken down into parts:
> >
> > 1. POD spikes slayer ability - solved
> > 2. ROD eliminates strategic locations on the map for power weapons - not solved
> > 3. ROD waypoint indicates when a player has picked up the weapon - not certain
[/quote]
Announcing the location of the drop before it happens let’s teams acknowledge what’s happening, and start fighting for supremacy of the location. 30 seconds should be enough for both teams to be set up strategically for the location. But as I said, the timer could be argued about.
> >
> > As for indicating when a player picks it up, yes, that might be a problem for stealthy players.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Second idea
> >
> >
> >
> > > Mix personal ordnance with the map ordnance.
> > >
> > > This would work so that Power weapons would be available through personal ordnance only, however, the twist to it is that as you order a power weapon or power up, it drops at a Map Ordnance location.
> >
> >
> >
> > > What if the enemy wanted to control those locations? How would you get to your POD without being shot at?
> >
> > Well, the point of this was more to make personal drops, not personal.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Similairly to how the first idea works, as you order it, a waypoint spawns on the location it will drop at and 30 seconds later it’s dropped there.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I don’t see the purpose of a delay in drop… They just have to count to 30… you are not really solving any problem with this delay…
> >
> > No no, the personal ordnance doesn’t work so that it lands at the player location. It picks one of the regular Map Ordnance drop locations and drops it there. The players choose which power weapons are spawned, not the game. Other than that it functions like usual. The delay is there as in the first idea. The waypoint for the weapon spawns at the location, which is at a Map Ordnance Drop location, not the player location, unless of course he/she happens to be at one a location that’s chosen.
> >
> > The delay is there for the teams to understand what’s happening and so on, to be able to fight for the ordnance weapon. The Personal ordnance isn’t actually “personal” as the player ordering it may not get it at all.

8

> > > 1. POD spikes slayer ability - solved
> > > 2. ROD eliminates strategic locations on the map for power weapons - not solved
> > > 3. ROD waypoint indicates when a player has picked up the weapon - not certain
> >
> > #2 is only a problem by opinion, not fact.
>
> Wha???
>
> good luck trying to get anyone to agree with you…

Map Placement causes people to camp those locations holding down the power weapons. It also causes so only certain people gain access to power weapon on a map, aswell and possibly the wrong people on a team gaining them, wasting them and decreasing chance of victory.

Random Ordnance leads to no one team gaining overall control of the best weapons, and in conjunction with Persnonal Ordnance allows for Teams made of random individuals, or casual teams, the ability to fight back against experienced teams and have a fair chance at winning through overwhelming force vs play experience.

9

> Map Placement causes people to camp those locations holding down the power weapons.

If a player locks down a position and is allowed to get the weapons they are waiting for, then guess what, they deserve it.

> It also causes so only certain people gain access to power weapon on a map, aswell and possibly the wrong people on a team gaining them, wasting them and decreasing chance of victory.

Those people who take the time to learn the weapon times and spawns deserve to have an advantage. The whole maxim “the more you put in, the more you get out” has completely left Halo with this ordnance nonsense.

> Random Ordnance leads to no one team gaining overall control of the best weapons, and in conjunction with Persnonal Ordnance allows for Teams made of random individuals, or casual teams, the ability to fight back against experienced teams and have a fair chance at winning through overwhelming force vs play experience.

Look, I understand that you get frustrated because you get owned by people who co-ordinate better and know parts of the game better than you (actually I don’t understand your frustration at all), but crossing your arms and wanting benefits handed to you? Seems pretty selfish to me.

10

> > Map Placement causes people to camp those locations holding down the power weapons.
>
> If a player locks down a position and is allowed to get the weapons they are waiting for, then guess what, they deserves it.
>
>
>
> > It also causes so only certain people gain access to power weapon on a map, aswell and possibly the wrong people on a team gaining them, wasting them and decreasing chance of victory.
>
> Those people who take the time to learn the weapon times and spawns deserve to have an advantage. The who maxim “the more you put in, the more you get out” has completely left Halo with this ordnance nonsense.
>
>
>
> > Random Ordnance leads to no one team gaining overall control of the best weapons, and in conjunction with Persnonal Ordnance allows for Teams made of random individuals, or casual teams, the ability to fight back against experienced teams and have a fair chance at winning through overwhelming force vs play experience.
>
> Look, I understand that you get frustrated because you get owned by people who co-ordinate better and know the game better than you, but crossing your arms and wanting benefits handed to you? Seems pretty selfish to me.

Wow you didn’t understand anything I just said did you?

You just plugged your fingers in your ears and went LA LA LA MY WAY IS BETTER.

You seem to be of the position that the only people who should have any chance in this game are the people who have the time, ability or people to form a practiced team that can memorize every part of this game.

What you don’t seem to get is most people are not like that.
And its not a matter of “getting owned by people who are better than you” its a matter of, the old system being completely unfair to anyone who was not able to put 3 years of playtime into the game.

This system lets people who don’t have no lives to be able to play the game and keep up with those people.

As for the first quote all I have to say is “So camping is ok, so long as its your kind of camping?”

11

> Wow you didn’t understand anything I just said did you?
>
> You just plugged your fingers in your ears and went LA LA LA MY WAY IS BETTER.

Uh, it’s pretty obvious logic that I’ll see my point of view better because it’s where I stand. I’m open for debate, but don’t try to pin this “LA LA MY WAY IS BETTER” on just me, YOU are doing the exact same thing.

> You seem to be of the position that the only people who should have any chance in this game are the people who have the time, ability or people to form a practiced team that can memorize every part of this game.

So you’d rather they be deserved nothing at all for the time they put in?

> What you don’t seem to get is most people are not like that.
> And its not a matter of “getting owned by people who are better than you” its a matter of, the old system being completely unfair to anyone who was not able to put 3 years of playtime into the game.

Which is where truskill SHOULD came in (and it sadly doesn’t in this game.) If you don’t choose to learn the important parts of the map, the weapon spawns and their times, then you’ll deservedly lose to the players that do, but you know what else that should happen? Truskill comes in and places you against players in a similar position.

So please, don’t take it on people who have the time to learn of such important aspects of the game, blame your hate on the trueskill system.

> This system lets people who don’t have no lives to be able to play the game and keep up with those people.

Which is logically underserving. It’s like me allowing to bring in notes to an exam so I can keep up with those that made the right move to study. Yeah, seems really fair!

> As for the first quote all I have to say is “So camping is ok, so long as its your kind of camping?”

I don’t have a problem with camping at all; you just don’t see the positives of holding a weapon spawn location. Not only do you get the weapon, but you also prevent the other team from getting it. It can be in most instances a useful tactic.

I rather an ally who gets the weapon be useful with it, but I’d also take a guy on my team missing all his sniper shots over someone on the enemy team controlling that weapon spawn.

12

>

Too bad my system(s) would play more like the old version and not this version, leaving you stranded with “unfair” matches where the better player/team wins.

13

> > > > 1. POD spikes slayer ability - solved
> > > > 2. ROD eliminates strategic locations on the map for power weapons - not solved
> > > > 3. ROD waypoint indicates when a player has picked up the weapon - not certain
> > >
> > > #2 is only a problem by opinion, not fact.
> >
> > Wha???
> >
> > good luck trying to get anyone to agree with you…
>
> Map Placement causes people to camp those locations holding down the power weapons. It also causes so only certain people gain access to power weapon on a map, aswell and possibly the wrong people on a team gaining them, wasting them and decreasing chance of victory.
>
> Random Ordnance leads to no one team gaining overall control of the best weapons, and in conjunction with Persnonal Ordnance allows for Teams made of random individuals, or casual teams, the ability to fight back against experienced teams and have a fair chance at winning through overwhelming force vs play experience.

The problem isn’t that games need to balance the casual team vs full teams. The problem is that these unbalanced games are happening in the first place.

If i’m searching in a full party, I don’t want to match a random group of casual kids. It gets boring beating up on them. I want to match another full team that can challenge my friends and I, And when you have things like random ordinance drops creating well… randomness, the game becomes less balanced.

I’ve won and lost games because one team gets a needler and the other gets rockets. The randomness creates situations where the better player does not always win. That is unacceptable in a competitive environment.

14

> I’m like you OP, I don’t mind ordnance in Halo. The big problem I have is with its implementation.
>
> To me, Halo has always had 3 tiers of weapons:
>
> - Loadout weapons: Standard auto and precision weapons. (AR, BR, etc.)
> - Specialty weapons: Weapons that are powerful in specific situations. (Needlers, Plasma Pistols, SAWs, etc.)
> - Power weapons: Anything that can kill in 1 shot (Sniper, Rockets, etc.).
>
> In my opinion, I’d only allow loadout weapons in loadouts, specialty weapons in PODs, and Power weapons as world ordnance. This way players can still be rewarded with stronger weapons through personal ordnance, but without becoming overpowered as the most powerful weapons will need to be earned by fighting over them on the map.
>
> Also, random ordnance should just go away…like forever.

Also a valid solution.

Although, I posted a good solution to the random ordnance, so I don’t think it should be gone forever. It’d play more like the old games than how Halo 4 plays now.

15

> >
>
> Too bad my system(s) would play more like the old version and not this version, leaving you stranded with “unfair” matches where the better player/team wins.

It’s a shame that some players can’t take losing a fair competition in stride, but what’s worse is that they seem to blame their loss on everything other than themselves. This over the years has ultimately caused even more random variables to be a part of this game, so much so that the game is no longer fair competition, but rather a roll of the dice.

16

Why does everything I say always seem to be taken as “You’re whining because some one else won”?

Instead of you actually understand what I’m saying, where as the game would be better balanced if all the advantages where not given to the better team/people.

Which is what placed weapons/no ordnance does.

17

> Instead of you actually understand what I’m saying, where as the game would be better balanced if all <mark>the advantages where not given to the better team/people</mark>

They’re not just given out of thin air to those players, they had to work for those advantages. That’s where the balance comes from in this instance: the more effort you put in, the more you should get out of it.

18

> > Instead of you actually understand what I’m saying, where as the game would be better balanced if all <mark>the advantages where not given to the better team/people</mark>
>
> They’re not just given out of thin air to those players, they had to work for those advantages. That’s where the balance comes from in this instance: the more effort you put in, the more you should get out of it.

Except that implies that everyone who plays the game has the time and energy to put in that kind of work, which is blind and foolish.

The idea is that the game should be balanced enough that people who do not have those time/energy/friends/resources should have a method of atleast posing a threat, or in the best case scenario, pull off a win.

Not just be there to be shot because the other team does have those things.
Yes, the better team can still win, especially if they really are that good. But not being able to memorize map spawns does not negate actual teamwork. And people actually working together should not be able to complain about one guy with an Incineration Cannon.

The idea is that the team of individuals does not have even a remote chance in the old system. In this one they do. And that is balance.

19

> Except that implies that everyone who plays the game has the time and energy to put in that kind of work, which is blind and foolish.

We’ve just come full circle. That’s how better players are separated, that’s how better everything is separated. If you don’t have the time and energy to understand, that’s fine, but there is no way in hell that you should be given benefits which negate the time and effort other players have made. Pretty simple concept to understand, no?

Actually, you know what? I’ll just copy and paste this part of your argument into Microsoft Word, print it out, and show my lecturer at University so I don’t have to study for my final exam - instead I’ll just take all the notes I can with me. I mean, that’s fair on the people who decided to study and understand the topic right?

> The idea is that the game should be balanced enough that people who do not have those time/energy/friends/resources should have a method of atleast posing a threat, or in the best case scenario, pull off a win.

Over time you’ll obviously encounter the same maps repeatedly, so it’s not really a stretch of effort to learn and understand. You’ll at least know the locations of the weapon spawns, so use the noggin and get to those damn spawns before the other team does. If you hold them and get the weapon that spawns in that location, then you’ve done better than the opposing team at that point in time.

> Not just be there to be shot because the other team does have those things.
> Yes, the better team can still win, especially if they really are that good. But not being able to memorize map spawns does not negate actual teamwork. And people actually working together should not be able to complain about one guy with an Incineration Cannon.

If your team is working together then you’d know who’d be strongest with such a weapon and let them take control of it. It’s not anyone else’s problem but your own if your team can’t coordinate.

> The idea is that the team of individuals does not have even a remote chance in the old system. In this one they do. And that is balance.

Nope. Balance is a predisposing factor in which team comes out of the game a winner. If a game is balanced then the winner is decided by the team that puts the most effort in. In regards to this topic it’s the team which has the ability to control weapon spawns.

All I can see from your line of thinking is: players who are lazy should be given a better chance at winning against a competent, coordinated, team.

Instead, your line of thinking should be: players who are lazy deserve to be placed against other players who are lazy, given an effective trueskill system is in place.

And that’s why - as you mentioned earlier - that other users think that “you’re whining because some one else won”.

20

The problem with the ordinances is that they are way to random. 99% of the time I don’t even know if a person has a power weapon or not without being shot or killed first.