So, knowing what we know now about the total strength of the covenant (as well as how OP Spartans are) do you think Red Flag could have ever succeeded if reach hadn’t been attacked? Now, I know that the plan involved finding a non existent covenant home World, but they probably would have discovered high charity instead. So, around 30 Spartans and the pillar of autumn against the whole covenant fleet and the forces on high charity. What do you guys think would have happened? I know this is a “what if” thread, but I’ve always wondered what would’ve happened if Red Flag had gone through
Granted Jacob Keyes was the best and the Spartans were OP as all get out,one ship up against over 300 ships and a gigantic alien city with who knows what kind of defences would not have worked. It is more likely that the Pillar of Autumn would have ended up like that ship on the H2A cutscene when chief is in space with the bomb
I’ve thought about it a lot too, one of the main things I myself wondered about was if the MJOLNIR equipped S-III’s (Noble, Gauntlet, Red and Echo teams) would be sent along as well. Assuming they’re all six man teams that would be another 24 Spartans added to the operation.
I’m not sure if they could actually complete the mission though, even with the added numbers from a potential S-III joint operation. I have no doubt the Spartans could get into High Charity, but getting out with a Prophet and alive would be the hard part. It would also be useless unless they grabbed Truth, because Truth was willing to have the other two High Prophets killed for his own gain and he wouldn’t care if they were captured.
Problem is, they would have likely captured Regret since he was the most mobile of the High Prophets.
So when they tried to engage the Covenant and force a treaty, Truth would probably shrug and say “Kill him” to them. Or, y’know, inform the religious zealot-juggernaut that is the Covenant Armada to obliterate the vessel holding Regret, citing that releasing him from human hands and the surly bonds of life would cleanse his soul when the Great Journey came.
So really, knowing what we know of the Covenant Hierarchy (especially Truth’s nefarious ways), Red Flag probably would have failed much harder and faster than the UNSC would have dared thought.
To be honest, even if by some miracle they managed to capture and escape with all three hierarchs I don’t see the covenant stoping the war for them.
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> To be honest, even if by some miracle they managed to capture and escape with all three hierarchs I don’t see the covenant stoping the war for them.
You never know. The council would’ve been thrown into utter chaos, and there didn’t seem to be a large amount of other San shyuum with the same drive or ambition as truth, regret, and mercy. The elites and the brutes probably would have boiled over as well, with no strong leadership to keep them in check
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> > To be honest, even if by some miracle they managed to capture and escape with all three hierarchs I don’t see the covenant stoping the war for them.
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> You never know. The council would’ve been thrown into utter chaos, and there didn’t seem to be a large amount of other San shyuum with the same drive or ambition as truth, regret, and mercy. The elites and the brutes probably would have boiled over as well, with no strong leadership to keep them in check
I beg to differ - between Contact Harvest and Broken Circle, we get a pretty clear image that many San’Shyuum are quite ambitious and arrogant about it. They just happened to stumble upon certain truths at a convenient time to turn over the old Hierarchs in favor of a new trinity, and their creation of the Human-Covenant War gave everybody plenty to focus on other than San’Shyuum power politics - including San’Shyuum themselves. Mercy was, generally speaking, one of the less ambitious. He was more or less pressed into the Hierarchy by a matter of circumstances, and his devotion to the Forerunners made it easy enough for him to accept that.
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> > > To be honest, even if by some miracle they managed to capture and escape with all three hierarchs I don’t see the covenant stoping the war for them.
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> > You never know. The council would’ve been thrown into utter chaos, and there didn’t seem to be a large amount of other San shyuum with the same drive or ambition as truth, regret, and mercy. The elites and the brutes probably would have boiled over as well, with no strong leadership to keep them in check
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> I beg to differ - between Contact Harvest and Broken Circle, we get a pretty clear image that many San’Shyuum are quite ambitious and arrogant about it. They just happened to stumble upon certain truths at a convenient time to turn over the old Hierarchs in favor of a new trinity, and their creation of the Human-Covenant War gave everybody plenty to focus on other than San’Shyuum power politics - including San’Shyuum themselves. Mercy was, generally speaking, one of the less ambitious. He was more or less pressed into the Hierarchy by a matter of circumstances, and his devotion to the Forerunners made it easy enough for him to accept that.
I suppose you have a point. But regardless, the whole system would’ve been in chaos in the aftermath. The brutes and sanghelli would most likely boil over, the council would be unguided and disorganized, and candidates for new hierarchs would most likely be at eachothers throats in the power vacuum. It may not destroy the covenant altogether, but it would certainly make them weaker
Except that the plan was not to get to high charity on the pillar. And high charity was known in halsey’s journal way before halo 2.
They would have managed, on board of a covenant flagship, to get in. And that was many Spartans, with surprise effect and in an area where security has weapons but other covenants don’t go around armed. And with cortana’s support. Getting out would be the hard part, but Spartans nearly always succeed and get out alive, this time most of them could even die, as it was a desperate last chance. I think that the plan could have been a success, and if anything we would have captured/killed one or two hierarchs, destabilized the covenant and probably left a surprise bomb. With some dozens of SII and a ship, not too bad. Instead we lost those SII to defend a planet whose defenses were lowered to make it easier for them to get on the covenant flagship.
Essencially, red flag was parangosky’s plan to kill Halsey and all the SII and get rid of reach in less time and with less evacuated.
I’d say it would work I mean the Autumn would be trashed but I think they could do it I mean the 30 odd Spartans could role through Truth’s office with some ease and just camp there until the Covenant stopped operating, if they planned the Autumns crash correctly they could hold out close to indefinitely with 30 Spartans and all the ammunition from the Autumn and given they’re experts at area denial I don’t think that would become an issue.
I could see Regret being sacrificed to protect the Covenant. Now, if Locklear hadn’t destroyed the crystal in First Strike that would have at least allowed them to get close. Once they were off the ship, though, and on High Charity they would have been overrun and overwhelmed hand/hand.
Red Flag wasn’t a great idea, but it was the best of the worst ideas that humanity had left to hold on to, that they knew of, in order to survive the war. I personally think it was doomed to fail, given that we have better knowledge on what they were up against than the in-universe humans did, but there was nothing better out there. It would have left humanity with no SII’s and that would have been the nail in the coffin.
Lol no, an entire covenant army against 30 odd Spartans? Excuse me the Elite Spec Ops squads reaching up to 2000 elites would murder the Spartans in their sleep.
If, by some miracle, the Spartans were able to capture a Hierarch (most likely Regret, as previously stated), it probably would have just pushed the great schism up a few months. However, without the Sangheili knowing that the Great Journey was a lie and Humans weren’t actually a race of heretics or whatever, they would probably not ally with them and just focus on killing San’Shyuum/Jiralhanae. Meanwhile, Humans are sitting there scratching their heads wondering what happened. Oh, and the Sangheili would still have Xytan and his fleet, so they might not even need to ally with humanity at all.
So, while the Covies are focusing on killing each other and without the flood to worry about (since they don’t know it exists), humanity gets to advance all their tech and finish the Infinity (albeit a weaker one, since they probably wouldn’t have found Forerunner engines without the discovery of Instillation 04), and be actually ready to defend themselves against whatever Covenant is left. Also, if the Sangheili win, Xytan would probably be leading them instead of Thel. That’d be weird.
Okay, bit of speculation there. But that’s what this topic is about, right?